LOAD board game kickstarter

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**Necros**

Haven't seen this posted yet, just found it now.. looks like lots of really cool fantasy minis, great looking sculpts!

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-board-game

**Dark Severance**

It caught my interest however I will not be backing and it isn't because Prodos is doing UniCast for them either. I will be waiting for retail. They are first created, 0 backed and I make it a habit of no longer backing people unless they have previously backed other projects.

**spiralingcadaver**

Principle of reciprocity, or based on exp, or what?

I tend to, too, I'm just curious why you do.

**Dark Severance**

spiralingcadaver wrote:
Principle of reciprocity, or based on exp, or what?

I tend to, too, I'm just curious why you do.

A little bit of everything. Kickstarter has been around long enough now that I like to back people who have at least done some sort of Kickstarter backing. It usually shows they understand the process, the issues that can arise and that there are delays and hopefully how to hopefully handle situations better when they encounter them by learning from others. It also tends to shows they want to back and help the community, not just think about what they can get out of it. It can depend on what they back as well, which lets me see how long they have had the account to a degree. The campaign is doing good so it isn't like they'll need my money but that also just adds another little flag for me. Often companies aren't ready for "really successful" which leads to mismanagement and since I have nothing to base that information on it, it makes it more of a risk especially for a first time project.

**RiTides**

Wow! Love these concepts, might need it eventually just for Turtleback and Wart

Not sure about pledging for a game due to their inexperience, but will definitely be watching this one (and have put in a small pledge to do so for now).

Thanks for sharing, sprialingcadaver!

**Necros**

Yeah that's true, I tend to look for the same.. even if it's first created it would be good to see they backed stuff before. Who knows maybe they have on a personal level, but made a new "business" account.

I was going to back, but Silver Tower has my nerd budget all used up at the moment.

**Alpharius**

RiTides wrote:
Wow! Love these concepts, might need it eventually just for Turtleback and Wart

Not sure about pledging for a game due to their inexperience, but will definitely be watching this one (and have put in a small pledge to do so for now).

Thanks for sharing, sprialingcadaver!

Don't you mean Necros there?

This one is interesting, but as noted, there are a few red flags here too...

**RiTides**

Yes you're right

**Mymearan**

No interest at all in a game that's basically a carbon copy of a very specific computer game genre that is deathly boring, but the models are nice.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

I'd be far, far happier if there was any indication of a real world address for them

they've got established twitter and facebook pages but they and the KS point to a website with no indication of who they are and no way to contact them (even if it is one of those rent and office places with 100s of companies running from it)

**CptJake**

So, this is another Prodos KS.

Finding out it was Prodos caused me to drop my pledge. Jarek and crew are dishonest and they won't get a dime from me. Hell, they still owe me a big chunk of my AvP pledge.

Good luck to any of who stay with them. Pledge absolutely the most you can afford. Maybe then they'll have enough cash to send us AvP backers our rewards. Their next KS can fund sending you your stuff.

Archon is a standalone company with the shares owned by Prodos Games.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-board-game/posts/1584625

Prodos owns all the shares, and 'sold' their new casting technique to Archon...

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

Update today

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-board-game/posts/1584625

Basically this is Prodos via a wholey owed subsidiary called Archon, and will be using the new prodos Unicast process

so this means the product should be good (no worries about that)

since it's technically a separate business it should be safe from any financial issues from Prodos AvP issues (so money going into this should stay for this only)

and they have done back end prodiction and design stuff for a whole bunch of other companies so do know what they are doing

but

when things go wrong (AvP) Prodos has really not been great with communication (and they should have been)

or timely fulfilment (you can argue about whether how they've handled this is sensible overall even if some backers have been badly effected, it may leave a bad taste, but may also have been the only way to make sure anything got fulfilled)

overall now I know who are behind this I would probably back if I was interested in the product

(but with real knowledge that this is at least a bit of a gamble). KS is not a store, bla, bla, You may nothing, bla, bla, and things WILL almost certainly run late

**Nostromodamus**

Archon has been around for a while, I remember it coming up in the AvP thread. Isn't it Prodos' manufacturing wing owned/run by one of Jarek's relatives? I could be misremembering.

**Dark Severance**

CptJake wrote:
Archon is a standalone company with the shares owned by Prodos Games.

Archon has always existed although I thought it was a different name. This was miniature casting, sculpting, 3d printing side of Prodos. It was always separate and even brought up at some point when Prodos discussed cash flow issues 1-2 years back (can't remember when). One of the options was for Prodos to declare bankruptcy or dissolve, something along those lines but focus on their manufacturing. This is one of the reasons that side of the business has been handled differently.

**CptJake**

Dark Severance wrote:
CptJake wrote:
Archon is a standalone company with the shares owned by Prodos Games.
Archon has always existed although I thought it was a different name. This was miniature casting, sculpting, 3d printing side of Prodos. It was always separate and even brought up at some point when Prodos discussed cash flow issues 1-2 years back (can't remember when). One of the options was for Prodos to declare bankruptcy or dissolve, something along those lines but focus on their manufacturing. This is one of the reasons that side of the business has been handled differently.

To be fair, that quote is from the latest LOAD KS update, not me.

**Dark Severance**

I wasn't denying that the shares are owned by Prodos. I was correcting that it isn't a "new business" and that side of them has always existed.

**CptJake**

Dark Severance wrote:
I wasn't denying that the shares are owned by Prodos. I was correcting that it isn't a "new business" and that side of them has always existed.

Would you please quote me where I said it was a new business?

Thanks

**Dark Severance**

You did not specifically say it although it was implied within, "Prodos owns all the shares, and 'sold' their new casting technique to Archon". They didn't sell the casting technique it was already developed and owned by their manufacturing division of the company.

**CptJake**

Dark Severance wrote:
You did not specifically say it although it was implied within, "Prodos owns all the shares, and 'sold' their new casting technique to Archon". They didn't sell the casting technique it was already developed and owned by their manufacturing division of the company.

I use THEIR words from THEIR KS update and you in turn build a straw man argument against me.

Prodos claimed the Unicast process as theirs here on Dakka. The KS update indicates Archon owns it.

**Dark Severance**

You technically didn't since they didn't say anything about selling their casting technique. I'm not turning anything into an argument just adding and correcting information. If you take me adding information as such then I apologize. It isn't specifically directed or targeted at you but also at people who also went down that train of thought. Archon shares are owned by Prodos, they technically own the rights to the process or at least contract rights through it. Not sure of the terms of the contract but Archon has handled the manufacturing, casting and sculpting for Prodos as well as other Kickstarters for quite some time.

Edit: I did make a mistake. I did not see that they said, "Creators of LOAD is Archon". So Archon did create LOAD, the actual people who wrote the rules who I have been following were said to be "externally contracted".

**RiTides**

No more back and forth please - let's stick to discussing the topic (Load board game) and not drag this into an OT argument. Thanks

------------------------

I just decided to up my pledge as I really need the Blip & Blaine, Turtleback, Wart and Epic Wart models in my life

I'm just after those models, though - if anyone is interested in splitting my pledge and taking the rest (say 50/50 cost split, with me just keeping the 4 turtle / pig models and you keeping everything else!) please PM me

**ced1106**

The rules were found to plagiarize the Rum and Bones 1st edition rules, and an updated ruleset should be available today.

Based on my research, I'm not seeing how this isn't another Prodos KS, just with a different company name. I generally skip "First Created" projects, anyway.

I'll wait until the product hits retail and reviews are in before backing a future Prodos / Archon KS.

Discussion here about the LOAD KS: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/180/690765.page

Additional posts on BGG in the LOAD forums.

**bubber**

Latest avp news letter contains some load info:

Kickstarter
Prodos Games Ltd says:
Hi there:
Prodos is well aware that the information we are about to share with you, in normal circumstances of business management would not normally be shared publicly however we have been put into a position where we must clarify some issues with the backers who believed in us so strongly that they put their hard earned cash on the line for a product we committed and still commit to deliver.
You might remember in the December update, we provided a screenshot of the funding that we had set aside for shipping. You may also remember our October update about Prodos seeing the licensor, and discussions being held about the future direction of the game for the next 2 years. We also spoke about potential releases of new models, rules etc. The plan and subsequent deal was agreed and secured with no additional payment required.
In March 2016 we were informed that we had reached “minimum guaranteed” scope and timeframe of our contract with licensor and that they were now looking to renegotiate the contract going forward. For us this raised serious alarm bells as we were in the process of shipping Wave 2 to many backers, with some Wave 2 and Wave 3 items still outstanding for approval.
To allow us to ensure that Kickstarter deliveries will be met, as there are still outstanding items for approval, and to support the future of this product, we had no choice but to sign a new agreement at significant cost. In short, had we not agreed with the terms of the new contract, the KickStarter would have died there and then with no further approvals being given. For us at Prodos, this was not an option. We have always promised that we would see this KS through to the end and this, despite the stress and financial strain, is what we will do.
http://postimg.org/image/jr6qyauuj/
Looking at silver linings however, it does mean that Prodos will be supporting this game until June 2018 at a minimum!
The cost of this contract, combined with the increased cost of postage previously mentioned, this has again depleted our funds and has again derailed our shipping targets. As a consequence of this we took action and offered expedited shipping as seen in the last updates, so that you could purchase a model and have it shipped with your approved Wave 2 products.
Shipping continues, and is funded by Prodos Games profits from sales, and the services it provides, and the additional purchases made by backers over the last number of weeks.
I am again assuring you that I and the rest of the Prodos team are doing everything possible to have your pledges reach your door step as fast as possible. Currently we have a number of wave 3 items with licensor awaiting approval including the ,much anticipated, dropship however we don’t have a timeframe on the approval of these items as of yet.
The previous Wave 2 shipping offer still stands and includes a 5% discount. Thank you to you who have availed of this offer to date.
I hope most of you have seen the efforts we have put into getting this product to you. To those still awaiting, all I can do is apologise (again) for the delays.
Our store link: store.prodosgames.com
Controversy about LOAD the miniatures game.
As there is a few questions about Archon Kickstarters, we would like to make the following statement.
Archon is a company set up by Prodos in 2014 to provide manufacturing services to Prodos only.
Archon LTD and Prodos Games LTD are separate LTD entities and therefore have separate accounts, structures and teams in place.
Prodos Games is an investor in Archon's structure.
Archon, between 2014 and 2016 has grown is strength from mono-customer manufacturer of miniatures to well know and established entity, providing services to more than 20 customers from industry.
It also helped via Prodos connections to provide miniatures for 12 other Kickstarters as well as well know names as:
Ninja Division, Mantic Games, Warlords Gates of Antares, TitanForge, MicroArt Studio, White Dragon Miniatures, Riverhorse, Steamforged Games, Freebooter Minatures, Infamy Miniatures, Age of Tyrants, Rycerze pustkowi, Shadowrun, Demigods Evolution, Norsgard, Miniature 13, Perditions Mouth, Wargamer, Hysterical Games, Awaken Realms, Troll Trader, Armoured Syndicate, Fregged Empire, Collision, hint The Game, Modiphious, Dungeon Saga, Apollo, Broken Contract, Purgatory, Smog Con, Nova open…
Prodos uses about 10% of Archon's manufacturing capabilities to provide Prodos products to the market.
And their project info: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-board-game/posts/158572

**MLaw**

I get that it's a separate entity on paper but it kinda feels like a shell company..

**RiTides**

I guess I might be a little odd here... but having backed a ton of campaigns, this one just doesn't worry me. They already have their production process worked out (and are doing production in-house), already have the minis created and just need to make more... it just seems so much further along than most board games on Kickstarter.

I also don't mind Prodos' involvement as they have shown the ability to create fantastic miniatures, and the pledge levels are simple so shouldn't be a difficult task to fulfill.

Overall, I can understand why people were hesitant, but I just find it ironic that people were happily pledging $10K per day (with $110K and $85K the first two days) when they thought the company was a complete unknown / new to the miniature game industry / etc, but get scared off when they know who it is. I'd much prefer a company connected to Prodos handle this campaign (especially having produced miniatures for so many other Kickstarters), than one that had never done anything like this at all before!

I mean, check out this production update:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-board-game/posts/1585725

They've got their ducks in a row on this project... so yeah, out of the 275 I've backed, I'd put this one way towards the low end of the "worry" scale.

**CptJake**

RiTides wrote:
I guess I might be a little odd here... but having backed a ton of campaigns, this one just doesn't worry me. They already have their production process worked out (and are doing production in-house), already have the minis created and just need to make more... it just seems so much further along than most board games on Kickstarter.

I also don't mind Prodos' involvement as they have shown the ability to create fantastic miniatures, and the pledge levels are simple so shouldn't be a difficult task to fulfill.

Overall, I can understand why people were hesitant, but I just find it ironic that people were happily pledging $10K per day (with $110K and $85K the first two days) when they thought the company was a complete unknown / new to the miniature game industry / etc, but get scared off when they know who it is. I'd much prefer a company connected to Prodos handle this campaign (especially having produced miniatures for so many other Kickstarters), than one that had never done anything like this at all before!

No doubt they have a handle on the figures. But that is not what they are selling, they are selling a game. A game where the first rules they put up was plagiarized (even Prodos admitted it). If that is not a red flag I don't know what is. There seems to be some folks stating some of the characters infringe on some computer game IP as well (I don't know enough about to form a real opinion but if you are willing to plagiarize rules it would not surprise me to find you did similar with other content).

In the link you give to the update they state:

We have all printed materials ready, core box miniatures are designed and tooling is done for manufacturing.

Clearly that is misleading if they don't have non-plagiarized rules yet.

**RiTides**

Well, they said they outsourced the rules (I have no idea) and are correcting them so as not to plagiarize. I saw good responses about the gameplay, and while obviously plagiarism isn't OK, they caught it before it went to print. It's also very difficult to assign IP to game mechanics, so I wouldn't expect the gameplay to change very much. For myself as a miniature gamer, I'm really here for the models - which just look fantastic.

The thing is, I backed AvP heavily - so I know people have a legitimate beef with Prodos in many ways. But it's clear the folks behind this game have been really hard at work on it for a long time. I think it looks incredible and is further along than any other board game I've backed on Kickstarter (including CMON's). So yeah... I'm definitely looking forward to it, and if anything not having it blow up to insane levels might make production and fulfillment a bit easier!

**CptJake**

I guess I don't see 'We plagiarized the rules' as 'hard at work'. In fact, it screams lazy to me.

**Dark Severance**

CptJake wrote:
No doubt they have a handle on the figures. But that is not what they are selling, they are selling a game. A game where the first rules they put up was plagiarized (even Prodos admitted it). If that is not a red flag I don't know what is. There seems to be some folks stating some of the characters infringe on some computer game IP as well (I don't know enough about to form a real opinion but if you are willing to plagiarize rules it would not surprise me to find you did similar with other content).

To be fair. In the English language there are only so many ways to explain and talk about, lanes, attack, move, costs, rolling, activate especially when games are based on the same type of game. They all have minions, 3-5 lanes of combat, heroes that is the basis for a MOBA. Just because Heroes of the Storm or LoL use different names for the same attack, have different hero names doesn't mean the games aren't similar.

I am not saying that is an excuse. I did look them over they are very similar in some areas. It isn't a clear copy and since they are common terms and words utilized it would be interesting how a court would rule. There wasn't enough information, given that it wasn't a completed version though to make a case. That is one of the reasons why WotC waited until HEX had established itself because anything during the Kickstarter campaign can still be claimed as a prototype (which often does have copyrighted material in them... given how many board game pitches I've sat in on).

As for the Dota heroes similarity. We're talking about a female masked ninja, female ice mage, naga/medusa with bow and winged demon. I can pull 3/4 of those references from World of Warcraft alone. I can find more similarities in other games and animes. There is no denying that the example of the Medusa had the similar abilities. I don't know if they just was simply Split SHot, Mana Shield, Mystic Snakes and if they were named the same or did the same things. Although none of those three items are terribly unique in themselves.

I am however not a lawyer and those are my opinions. However if it was ruled that those things were considered infringement then that opens up a much larger hole as there are many companies that pull similar parallels.

**RiTides**

I was referring to hard at work on the models - if you read my post, I agree with you but they said they outsourced the rules writing (which would make sense - they're primarily a model company).

By hard at work, I was referring to the models and aesthetics of the game... if you look at the video they uploaded, they're apparently showing work on that front from 2 years ago.

I don't have a stake in this other than backing, but I just think people are going after them due to the Prodos connection more than anything else. Mierce Miniatures also faced this for some time with the Maelstrom Games fallout... but eventually, people (myself included) recognized that they're making awesome minis and despite the past mis-step, gladly support them.

I know Prodos is still in the thick of their issues moreso than Mierce... but to me the similarities are pretty strong, and again I don't see very much risk in this campaign at all compared to many other board game / miniatures projects that I've backed.

Dark Severance wrote:
However if it was ruled that those things were considered infringement then that opens up a much larger hole as there are many companies that pull similar parallels.

That's my take - and CMON would be first in line to get sued in that case

. They're all emulating the video games, so the idea that anything is infringing other board games seems a stretch - and I would think you've got a lot of latitude when making similar content (see WoW's kung fu panda versus the real Kung Fu Panda, or any of CMON's homage models).