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Phtalates are a softener used in PVC, which is normally a hard plastic. We all know they are toxic, this is well established scientifically unlike many other "toxic" things people overreact about, and banned in many countries, especially in toys. They leak out of the plastic over a long period of time and cause health issues. Now the question is... What about PVC miniatures? They are always softer and thus most likely contain PVC. Yet many people (including myself) let their children play with them without really thinking about this. what do you guys think, why is this never talked about and is there a phthalate-free way to make soft plastic minis?

Good question.

Stop eating your minis, and you won't have a problem.

Really, really.

Looks like the Bones line is phtalate free according to this admin forum response: http://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/62934-question-regarding-bonesium/

Good to know

 kronk wrote:
Stop eating your minis, and you won't have a problem.

Really, really.

Phtalates don't require you to eat them to be bad for you. That's why they're so dangerous compared to a lot of other toxic stuff.

the amount of phthalates you get from just handling stuff is not significant (coming from a research science background)

and pretty low even if a kid was chewing on/eating plastic stuff with them in occasionally

(although I would not like to be anywhere near a plant manufacturing them without solid safety precautions)

and since their use is regulated in the US and Europe anything made there (and probably anything made in china for a company that's going to have to get it tested to sell via retail) should be ok

(small KS projects that only make stuff for backers might be a bit more risky, but probably no more so than anything plastic in a 99p shop/dollar store etc)

It turns out one of the biggest risks of exposure in children is from medical devices (iv tubing, bags, gloves, syringes etc) if they are in the hospital for a prolonged period (eg premature, etc)

 Mymearan wrote:
Phtalates are a softener used in PVC, which is normally a hard plastic. We all know they are toxic, this is well established scientifically unlike many other "toxic" things people overreact about, and banned in many countries, especially in toys. They leak out of the plastic over a long period of time and cause health issues. Now the question is... What about PVC miniatures? They are always softer and thus most likely contain PVC. Yet many people (including myself) let their children play with them without really thinking about this. what do you guys think, why is this never talked about and is there a phthalate-free way to make soft plastic minis?

It's never talked about because it's not a real issue. A good portion of the minis being handled are painted, sealed, or otherwise coated in some way, and the amount of transfer from handling directly miniscule.

 Mymearan wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Stop eating your minis, and you won't have a problem.

Really, really.

Phtalates don't require you to eat them to be bad for you. That's why they're so dangerous compared to a lot of other toxic stuff.

Do not snort them or make drinking cups from them.

Really. This is not an issue

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
the amount of phthalates you get from just handling stuff is not significant (coming from a research science background)

and pretty low even if a kid was chewing on/eating plastic stuff with them in occasionally

(although I would not like to be anywhere near a plant manufacturing them without solid safety precautions)

and since their use is regulated in the US and Europe anything made there (and probably anything made in china for a company that's going to have to get it tested to sell via retail) should be ok

(small KS projects that only make stuff for backers might be a bit more risky, but probably no more so than anything plastic in a 99p shop/dollar store etc)

It turns out one of the biggest risks of exposure in children is from medical devices (iv tubing, bags, gloves, syringes etc) if they are in the hospital for a prolonged period (eg premature, etc)

That's very interesting. Glad to hear from someone with a scientific background, there is so much noise out there from people with strong opinions but no actual knowledge. I suppose my kid should be pretty safe from any significant exposure if he's only using the figures once in a while, not on a daily basis and certainly not chewing on them (he's past that phase).

 Bookwrack wrote:
It's never talked about because it's not a real issue. A good portion of the minis being handled are painted, sealed, or otherwise coated in some way, and the amount of transfer from handling directly miniscule.

So... Long story short, routinely playing with unpainted minis may lead to cancer, hepatic failure and unfertility?

 Mymearan wrote:

That's very interesting. Glad to hear from someone with a scientific background, there is so much noise out there from people with strong opinions but no actual knowledge. I suppose my kid should be pretty safe from any significant exposure if he's only using the figures once in a while, not on a daily basis and certainly not chewing on them (he's past that phase).

<--- Chemical Engineer with 10 years of plastic manufacturing experience. You get points into your body through injection, absorption, and ingestion.

Ingestion: So long as you don't ingest the plastic (snort it, breathe in the fines/particulates when cleaning mold lines, or eat it), you'll be fine. You aren't using the plastic for a sippy cup. If you did breathe in fines/particulates, it's not the phthalates that would be worrisome. It would be having small pieces of plastic in your lungs. So, don't snort it.

Injection: You aren't putting it in a syringe and then putting it into your bloodstream. All is clear.

Absorption: Any phthalates in a resin or PVC miniature will be minuscule in concentration. Even if you have a cut on your hand, you're not going to absorb enough from your modeling hobby to cause any problems. Wear gloves if you must.

There you go. Tips from someone with a scientific background and real world experience. Happy gaming.

Just to be sure to prevent exposure through the skin: Ensure you apply multiple layers of paint to seal it in and protect yourself!

 kronk wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:

That's very interesting. Glad to hear from someone with a scientific background, there is so much noise out there from people with strong opinions but no actual knowledge. I suppose my kid should be pretty safe from any significant exposure if he's only using the figures once in a while, not on a daily basis and certainly not chewing on them (he's past that phase).

<--- Chemical Engineer with 10 years of plastic manufacturing experience. You get points into your body through injection, absorption, and ingestion.

Ingestion: So long as you don't ingest the plastic (snort it, breathe in the fines/particulates when cleaning mold lines, or eat it), you'll be fine. You aren't using the plastic for a sippy cup. If you did breathe in fines/particulates, it's not the phthalates that would be worrisome. It would be having small pieces of plastic in your lungs. So, don't snort it.

Injection: You aren't putting it in a syringe and then putting it into your bloodstream. All is clear.

Absorption: Any phthalates in a resin or PVC miniature will be minuscule in concentration. Even if you have a cut on your hand, you're not going to absorb enough from your modeling hobby to cause any problems. Wear gloves if you must.

There you go. Tips from someone with a scientific background and real world experience. Happy gaming.

Thanks! I'm thoroughly convinced

Litcheur wrote:

 Bookwrack wrote:
It's never talked about because it's not a real issue. A good portion of the minis being handled are painted, sealed, or otherwise coated in some way, and the amount of transfer from handling directly miniscule.

So... Long story short, routinely playing with unpainted minis may lead to cancer, hepatic failure and unfertility?

Just remember that the next time someone in a painting thread says they don't care that they're fielding the gray horde.

 kronk wrote:
Injection: You aren't putting it in a syringe and then putting it into your bloodstream. All is clear.

So am I still allowed to stab my opponent, when they lose, with plastic miniatures then? I mean we play "To the Pain!" here or was it "To the Death", I always get them confused. ^_^

 Dark Severance wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Injection: You aren't putting it in a syringe and then putting it into your bloodstream. All is clear.

So am I still allowed to stab my opponent, when they lose, with plastic miniatures then? I mean we play "To the Pain!" here or was it "To the Death", I always get them confused. ^_^

If one of you is playing Khorne or Dark Eldar, yes.

This is expected.