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Made in re
Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot






 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Graphite wrote:
Do it! Do it! Do it!
Yeah, so, it turns out the eyes of GW are everywhere, as Andy E-mailed me before I could E-mail him.

If we want to give constructive good-faith feedback right to the horses mouth (so to speak), then I can pass it on.


Well, the bulk of most comments appear to fall in two boxes :
- I'd like to send you (more) money, but I can't, because product X gets OOP way too fast.
- I'd like to play your game (more), but I can't, because product is OOP and rules mistakes/typoes/inconsistencies/poor writing.

The former is not in the players' hands, the latter would require more frequent erratas, and some channel players can use to ask rule questions and clarifications.

Edit : I'll say it, overall, Newcromunda is a nice, fun game, if a bit of a rough diamond at this point. It's good, but could be better with a little more polish.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/21 08:43:39


Virtus in extremis 
   
Made in gb
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps





UK

To echo the above points - please do a new print run. I want to give Specialist Games monies but they're not available! A re-run of dice (packs go regularly for £30-£40 on ebay), card packs, hell even a new or refresh of the Gang Leaders pack. Same for Blood Bowl and Titanicus...


 Yodhrin wrote:
Oh, and one other thing: ancillary products like card packs. If they're going to insist on doing teeny-weeny runs of sometimes very useful things that aren't in the books and which sell out pretty much immediately when they go up for preorder, it'd be good if they would either publicly commit to doing a reprint in future(even if it's not right now, just some firm indication that folk who miss out don't need to indulge the scalperscum is enough), or else do what they did with the Titanicus terminals and put them up on Warhammer Community as a print-ready PDF. We want to buy this stuff, but if they can't manage to produce enough to satisfy demand and they're not willing to commit to doing so in future, then they could at least give us a DIY version(and it's not like they're losing out on anything - people are already hoisting the Jolly Roger to get copies when the stock runs out)..


Agreed. An alternative is some sort of table that you can roll or select with in a similar manner to the Titanicus Tactics Cards. So for picking a random card - you roll on one of a number of generic tables or instead on the house table. For a specific chosen card, you pick and note down secretly. That way, at least everyone gets a crack at having the tactics available to them. Also ensures that they're available long term. They can still sell the physical cards at the very least (I know I'll buy them. Just missing the Orlock pack, grumble grumble...)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
An additional point I'd like to add is praise for sheer amount of ideas and content they're bundling in. Yes, typos and mismatched entries are an irritant but not the end of the world. Ignore hyperbolic comments going on about Toxic Garbage. The only toxic garbage in this game is what the gangers occasionally end up wading through. Please keep lobbing in more, Rogue Trader style. With the amount of books and rules we've got, my ongoing campaign has just started wading through the Perils book let alone the book of judgment. Plenty to keep us going for another year or two.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/08/21 13:41:11


 
   
Made in no
[DCM]
Necron of Munda





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Graphite wrote:
Do it! Do it! Do it!
Yeah, so, it turns out the eyes of GW are everywhere, as Andy E-mailed me before I could E-mail him.

If we want to give constructive good-faith feedback right to the horses mouth (so to speak), then I can pass it on.

I'll post some questions from a list of errors at yaktribe (https://yaktribe.games/community/threads/collected-errors-typos-in-the-book-of-judgement.9166/). I skipped some of the errors regarding incorrect referencing pages, swapped fluff texts and similar errors.

These questions apply to the Book of Judgement.

Page 15
Why does Imperial Imposters allow the gang to avoid being Outlawed when this Alliance is not available to Law Abiding gangs? Keep in mind switching alignments has very low chance of keeping the Alliance, between 83.3% to 100% chance of breaking the Alliance. If an Outlaw gang starts an Alliance with the Imperial Imposters, then switch alignments, they have almost no chance to keep their Alliance and enjoy the benefits of the protection against being Outlawed.

Page 20
What is the correct profile and/or equipment for Void-born Scum? They are clearly incorrect.

Page 25
What is the correct rules for Scouring (Psychich Power)? It is different from the one listed in the Chaos Cults and Perils of the Underhive book, it lacks the Continuous Effect rule and is lower strength.

Page 33
Is it correct that Magnacles are not available to Enforcers?

Page 47
Why is Willpower is listed twice on the advancement chart? Why isn't Leadership listed?

Page 66
The Intrigue Stand Alone must be played on an enemy fighter. Is this correct, or should the effect and reward apply to a friendly fighter?

Page 86
Both The Resurrection Game and Peddlers of Forbidden Lore lack the stipulation that you must control both linked rackets in order to gain their second enhanced boons. Is this correct?

Page 87
Why is Estus Jet's throwing knives missing the Silent trait?

Page 87
Why does Estus Jet's stiletto knife have +1 to hit modifier? This does not match Gangs of the Underhive.

Page 91
Why does Cor Coran armed with a forged Guilder seal when he has no way of visiting the Trading Post?
Suggested solution: Cor Coran may make a Trade action as if he is a champion after a battle in which he took part.

Page 92
Why does Vunder Gorvos' Stub gun have the (outdated) Pistol trait instead of the (currently used) Sidearm trait?

Page 92
Why does Vunder Gorvos' wargear contains "2x Gold plated and Master-crafted Stub guns'' but his card shows 1x Stub gun, 1x Shotgun and 1x Sword? As a Hive Scum he is allowed to have 3 weapons, not 4.

Page 98
Why are Gaen Gorvos' throwing knives missing the Silent trait?

Page 99
Why are Jonny Razor's throwing knives missing the Silent trait?

Page 100
Why does Stun grenades for the Subjugation pattern grenade launcher have the Grenade trait? Why does it not have Blast (X)?

Page 101
Should the heavy concussion ram have the Blast trait (compared to the concussion carbine)?

Page 108
Why do Desire's Needle and Whisperbane knives have hit modifier under the Short range modifier instead of Long range?

Page 111
Why does Gas shells for various weapons have strength and damage characteristic? The rules for Gas say they do not pin or roll to wound.

Page 117
Why is the Gyrinx Cat's special rule "Small Target" different from the same rule possessed by the Necromunda Giant Rat from page 93 of the Book of Peril?. It lacks the effect which makes the model immune to stray shots.

Page 121
Why does Threadneedle Worms description says it is removed from both a fighter's card and the gang's stash when used? It cannot exist in both those places. Additionally he table has gaps and overlapping ranged, it reads:

1 - The Worms Turn
3-4 - A Few Live Worms
4-5 - A Few More Live Worms
6 - A Can Full of Worms


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 zedmeister wrote:

Yes, typos and mismatched entries are an irritant but not the end of the world (ignore hyperbolic comments going on about Toxic Garbage. The only toxic garbage in this game is what the gangers occasionally end up wading through).

I didn't call the first rulebook toxic garbage because it was full of typos and contradictions. It was pale demo version of what Necromunda is (only 2 gangs, no campaign/xp, almost no skills, traits, weapons or equipment). Many components of the game was alternative, not compatible with any of the books that came later. Stuff like scenarios, fighter types, gang composition, weapons, traits, skills. It is particularly toxic garbage because it includes a version of the game that was discarded on day 1 by the release of the Gang War system (which in turn was completely replaced by the compiled rulebooks one year later). If I buy a game that says "Necromunda", I have certain expectations, and seeing a system dead at launch is not deterring me from calling it toxic garbage.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2019/08/21 12:14:26


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Baxx wrote:

I didn't call the first rulebook toxic garbage because it was full of typos. It was pale demo version of what Necromunda is (onnly 2 gangs, no campaign/xp, almost no skills, traits, weapons or equipment). Many components of the game was alternative, not compatible with any of the books that came later. Stuff like scenarios, fighter types, gang composition, weapons, traits, skills.

Underhive was designed to be a largely self contained product. That's why it is called "Necromunda: Underhive" and not "Necromunda". They formed the design of the game around the components that were available in the box. This wasn't a terrible idea, given how long it would eventually take Necromunda to get all that missing stuff, and if it wasn't successful, could still be played even if they didn't release the rest of the line. Specialist Games didn't have to resources to support Necromunda fully at that time (or even now, apparently).

It probably isn't obvious, given how common narrative miniature games are these days, but when N17 was released, it was pretty darn uncommon. I think Frostgrave was it for noteworthy games people actually played. Grognards can look back and brag about their Mordheim gangs, but you have to understand that it had been decades since Necromunda or Mordheim were a thing, and narrative, campaign games had more or less disappeared in favor of competitive, tournament-focused games. Relaunching Necromunda to the current audience (and not just grognards) basically required selling the concept of a campaign game to people who only heard tales of them. Necromunda was a conservative launch, but it had to be. These days, Kill Team and Warcry think nothing of launching with campaigns built in, and I think it is largely thanks to the groundwork that Necromunda (and Frostgrave) laid.

It is particularly toxic garbage because it includes a version of the game that was discarded on day 1 by the release of the Gang War system (which in turn was completely replaced by the compiled rulebooks one year later).
Gang War took the self-contained Underhive and added a bunch of stuff that wasn't in the box: Sector Mechanicus rules and scenarios, rules for units/weapons/equipment that didn't have models, a lot more skills, and a simple but effective campaign that gives you a way to upgrade your gangs (again, something you can do in Underhive at all). It did not replace the Underhive rulebook, it added to it. It fleshed it out. It was basically the "Advanced Rules" section of the rulebook.

I don't begrudge the release of Gang War 1, but I think the other Gang War books were a misstep. You can definitely see the Gang War books getting bigger and more interesting, with less reprinting of tables and gear from previous issues, culminating in the Books of Peril/Judgement, which are less likely to be outright replaced going forward.

If I buy a game that says "Necromunda", I have certain expectations...
I can see that.
   
Made in gb
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps





UK

Baxx wrote:

I didn't call the first rulebook toxic garbage because it was full of typos and contradictions. It was pale demo version of what Necromunda is (only 2 gangs, no campaign/xp, almost no skills, traits, weapons or equipment). Many components of the game was alternative, not compatible with any of the books that came later. Stuff like scenarios, fighter types, gang composition, weapons, traits, skills. It is particularly toxic garbage because it includes a version of the game that was discarded on day 1 by the release of the Gang War system (which in turn was completely replaced by the compiled rulebooks one year later). If I buy a game that says "Necromunda", I have certain expectations, and seeing a system dead at launch is not deterring me from calling it toxic garbage.


Make up your mind. It is or it isn't. Shoddy, hyperbolic comments like this doesn't help your case.

As for the rest, you're talking nonsense. The set formed the basis for the game and included the core rules for the next year until the hardback was released. And as for your comments on components no longer in use, what are you on? Bar the rulebook, the rest of the box set is still valuable and useful. From the boards, to the models, to the counters, terrain, etc. Nothing bar the rulebook has been replaced.

Your expectations on getting a full complete game and being disappointed with the product received does not automatically mean the game is, as you put it, "toxic garbage". Finally, the "dead at launch" comment is beyond ridiculous and patently untrue. If it were true, why are we still here watching releases come out? Not to mention tactics cards and other accessories selling out within a week of release. You have some legitimate complaints in highlighting odd rules, typos and omissions, etc. But the fact your expectations at launch and ongoing are not getting met is, quite frankly, your problem and aren't a decent ground for complaint.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/08/21 13:44:29


 
   
Made in no
[DCM]
Necron of Munda





Make up my mind about what?

The starter set was a pale demo with no content, most of it describing an alternative game, which no further expansions could build upon. There are no pets for the initial Goliath & Escher gangs! There are no Juves, Brutes, hangers-on, alliances, trading post, black market, campaigns, new scenarios or anything else either. No other gangs can play against them. They are alone, without any additional content. It's a dead system, and it died on day 1.

Everything released within the 1st year (with a few exceptions like the cult pdfs) is either abandoned or have been replaced by the compilation books. That includes the first 5 books.

We are watching releases come out for a game that is different in all aspects from the initial rulebook system. Nothing that has been released is compatible with that system.

There are many reasons why I call it toxic garbage, not just one example you point out like expecations.

The starter box game was dead at launch, that's a fact. Nobody is playing that system, nobody is discussing it. It's completely dead. Perhaps a few people made some demo games the first weeks or months, but anyone who could see where the development was going discarded it.

You may not agree with me, but I have scanned all changes in this game after every release. I've updated my own rules compilation every time, I noticed almost all differences, small and major. I know in great detail how the rules have evolved since November 2017. I've discussed every iteration of the rules in great deteail at yaktribe. Never saw reactions similar to yours there. You should join our discussions over at yaktribe, give some fresh perspectives!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sqorgar wrote:

Underhive was designed to be a largely self contained product. [...]

Yes I can agree with the way you describe it, but I still think it was a terrible idea the way most of these things were handled. Luckily we're passed all that now, but it is sad to see several of the same problems we suffered last year due to bad quality now is returning in the latest books.

This message was edited 13 times. Last update was at 2019/08/21 14:37:37


 
   
Made in gb
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps





UK

Baxx wrote:
Make up my mind about what?

The starter set was a pale demo with no content, most of it describing an alternative game, which no further expansions could build upon. There are no pets for the initial Goliath & Escher gangs! There are no Juves, Brutes, hangers-on, alliances, trading post, black market, campaigns, new scenarios or anything else either. No other gangs can play against them. They are alone, without any additional content. It's a dead system, and it died on day 1.

Everything released within the 1st year (with a few exceptions like the cult pdfs) have been replaced by the compilation books. That includes the first 5 books.

We are watching releases come out for a game that is different in all aspects from the initial rulebook system. Nothing that has been released is compatible with that system.

There are many reasons why I call it toxic garbage, not just one example you point out like expecations.

The starter box game was dead at launch, that's a fact. Nobody is playing that system, nobody is discussing it. It's completely dead. Perhaps a few people made some demo games the first weeks or months, but anyone who could see where the development was going discarded it.



Then we'll have to agree to disagree. I have used the original set extensively and still do. I used the original rulebook right up until the release of the newer hardback. I saw each gang war as an expansion to the rulebook not a replacement. Was it a pain in the arse to flip through each book to find rules? Certainly. However, toxic garbage it was not. Nor was it dead on arrival. The core mechanics haven't changed that much since launch. New things have been added and old things removed.



You may not agree with me, but I have scanned all changes in this game after every release. I've updated my own rules compilation every time, I noticed almost all differences, small and major. I know in great detail how the rules have evolved since November 2017. I've discussed every iteration of the rules in great deteail at yaktribe. Never saw reactions similar to yours there. You should join our discussions over at yaktribe, give some fresh perspectives!


I'll give it a miss, thanks. I'd rather not get lectured on why a game I have thoroughly enjoyed since launch is toxic garbage.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Myrtle Creek, OR

Let them know the Gang War supplements and N17 core book replacement within about a year of release to be replaced by a $110 two-book compilation was viewed by some as paying to beta test and has made some folks shy about buying new stuff.

That once upon a time, one of Necromunda's big draws was being able to buy, build and paint a small group of models and play the game affordably. It didn't scare people quite so much for investment of time and money.

If I want to play Enforcers as a newbie I have to spend $110 for the two hardcovers, $42 for the models, $47 for book o' judgement. I also need to buy dice so that's another $15. So $214 to get going.

Even if my group has the core books--and they're good/I'm good with sharing them---- I'm at $104 to get 10 guys on the table. It's the most extreme example but it is a deterrent to generating casual player (I mean about commitment not play style) commitment.

That free PDF gang lists actually might be helping them sell unit boxes like Chaos cultists and GSC neophytes. Doing more stuff for folks who don't want/can't to go 'all in' might be worth continuing

That generic always available Necromunda dice might be a good thing to stock. Our group doesn't even bother with the cards any more since they're OOP for most of our players and nobody wants to pay ebay prices.





   
Made in no
[DCM]
Necron of Munda





 zedmeister wrote:

Then we'll have to agree to disagree. I have used the original set extensively and still do. I used the original rulebook right up until the release of the newer hardback. I saw each gang war as an expansion to the rulebook not a replacement. Was it a pain in the arse to flip through each book to find rules? Certainly. However, toxic garbage it was not. Nor was it dead on arrival. The core mechanics haven't changed that much since launch. New things have been added and old things removed.

I'll give it a miss, thanks. I'd rather not get lectured on why a game I have thoroughly enjoyed since launch is toxic garbage.

When you played, did you include juves?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/21 15:21:31


 
   
Made in gb
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps





UK

Baxx wrote:
When you played, did you include juves?


Probably not as they didn't (and still don't) have models. Though, I relented probably around Gang War 2 as they're useful fodder.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 privateer4hire wrote:

That once upon a time, one of Necromunda's big draws was being able to buy, build and paint a small group of models and play the game affordably. It didn't scare people quite so much for investment of time and money.
You are aware that we are talking about Games Workshop here, right?
   
Made in no
[DCM]
Necron of Munda





 zedmeister wrote:
Baxx wrote:
When you played, did you include juves?


Probably not as they didn't (and still don't) have models. Though, I relented probably around Gang War 2 as they're useful fodder.


Okay. We're talking about completely different things. I was talking about a version of the game where there is no such thing as "Juve". Sorry if I was unable to clearly describe this earlier.
   
Made in gb
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps





UK

Baxx wrote:
 zedmeister wrote:
Baxx wrote:
When you played, did you include juves?


Probably not as they didn't (and still don't) have models. Though, I relented probably around Gang War 2 as they're useful fodder.


Okay. We're talking about completely different things. I was talking about a version of the game where there is no such thing as "Juve". Sorry if I was unable to clearly describe this earlier.


Not sure of your reasoning? Are you annoyed Juves didn’t appear in the base game and were added as a rules expansion?
   
Made in no
[DCM]
Necron of Munda





How did you get that impression? Where did I even hint this annoyed me? Let's just say my reasoning at this point is not worth repeating and certainly not newsworthy. If you're actually interested in my reasoning, I'm happy to invite you to yaktribe, it is the best quality discussion forum for Necromunda, and you should be pretty safe from being lectured there. There is a "Sump" thread there more than 100 pages of complaints about N17/N18, so if you don't understand why people (including me) are/were upset, that should give you a pretty clear picture.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/08/21 17:15:59


 
   
Made in gb
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps





UK

Baxx wrote:
How did you get that impression? Where did I even hint this annoyed me? Let's just say my reasoning at this point is not worth repeating and certainly not newsworthy. If you're actually interested in my reasoning, I'm happy to invite you to yaktribe, it is the best quality discussion forum for Necromunda, and you should be pretty safe from being lectured there. There is a "Sump" thread there more than 100 pages of complaints about N17/N18, so if you don't understand why people (including me) are/were upset, that should give you a pretty clear picture.


Using the phrase toxic garbage makes you come across as more than a little annoyed. You’ve given no other reasoning beyond the fact that you come across as annoyed because the original base game didn’t include every rule at the get go and instead GW went with the codex style expansions. As for the invite, no thanks. I don’t want to be lectured.

I’ll leave it there and bow out as we’ll keep going backwards and forwards disagreeing with each other until a mod tells us off, but I think Sqorgar said it best:

 Sqorgar wrote:
If I buy a game that says "Necromunda", I have certain expectations...
I can see that.


Indeed...
   
Made in vn
Longtime Dakkanaut




Some mismanagement and development hell must've been going on at SG, leading to "Underhive" and Normal necromunda having 2 completely different cost for gang and items, and missing weapons.

They need to retire that starter box ASAP.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






If you know what your doing, you won't have a problem playing a straight up gang fight game.

There are a lot of issues, but nothing that we old Necromunda players aren't used to. Hell, this has been part and parcel of the game since Necromunda 1.

This was a great evolution, if there would have been more of keeping what was great about the first game and improving what was shoddy while adding in the new stuff line Enforcers, and Pets and stuff.

Examples of add-ons I've done- Have no issues throwing in a handful of ghouls and reducing sight by 6 inches on a board, have none either about reducing it to 4 inches while a giant lizard walks around in the slop, and attacking what it wants to on the ground floor. There's a Vampire still in the hive that I have a good run trying o hunt down as well.... Just who is the vampire? Zombie Horde, Grot infestation, taking over a wild territory and just fighting a bunch of chaos cultists, etc.etc… You use the books as a guide, you are not married to anything in them, Just everyone has to agree what works or not.



At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money. 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut






Baxx wrote:
Make up my mind about what?

The starter set was a pale demo with no content, most of it describing an alternative game, which no further expansions could build upon. There are no pets for the initial Goliath & Escher gangs! There are no Juves, Brutes, hangers-on, alliances, trading post, black market, campaigns, new scenarios or anything else either. No other gangs can play against them. They are alone, without any additional content. It's a dead system, and it died on day 1.

Everything released within the 1st year (with a few exceptions like the cult pdfs) is either abandoned or have been replaced by the compilation books. That includes the first 5 books.

We are watching releases come out for a game that is different in all aspects from the initial rulebook system. Nothing that has been released is compatible with that system.

There are many reasons why I call it toxic garbage, not just one example you point out like expecations.

The starter box game was dead at launch, that's a fact. Nobody is playing that system, nobody is discussing it. It's completely dead. Perhaps a few people made some demo games the first weeks or months, but anyone who could see where the development was going discarded it.

You may not agree with me, but I have scanned all changes in this game after every release. I've updated my own rules compilation every time, I noticed almost all differences, small and major. I know in great detail how the rules have evolved since November 2017. I've discussed every iteration of the rules in great deteail at yaktribe. Never saw reactions similar to yours there. You should join our discussions over at yaktribe, give some fresh perspectives!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sqorgar wrote:

Underhive was designed to be a largely self contained product. [...]

Yes I can agree with the way you describe it, but I still think it was a terrible idea the way most of these things were handled. Luckily we're passed all that now, but it is sad to see several of the same problems we suffered last year due to bad quality now is returning in the latest books.


Agreed. Underhive was as a demo trying to pass as a real game. It reminded me of the sports videogames demo where you can only play one off game with the same 2 teams.

lost and damned log
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/519978.page#6525039 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Super glad for the system's progress currently.

Models coming out at a sane pace.
Content coming out at the same pace (far from perfect, but fixed by fans very quickly).

We know more models and content is coming.

Lots of new players coming onboard.
And the stuff is selling like hotcakes for GW.

   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





GW should just outsource the FAQ for something like this to the fans. There are people who will put in greater effort than anyone at GW has the time to, and GW will still have the final say upon review.

Same way they outsourced playtesting to tournament players.
   
Made in ca
Posts with Authority




I'm from the future. The future of space

That would be good.

So many of the issues seem to stem from not having fresh eyes on it. Often when you know what it is supposed to say and what rules a given thing is supposed to have you just don't see that the text says something different. Or notice that something is missing that you think is there.

Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Altruizine wrote:
GW should just outsource the FAQ for something like this to the fans. There are people who will put in greater effort than anyone at GW has the time to, and GW will still have the final say upon review.
God no. Fans are fine at finding flaws, but they are terrible at correcting them. You can't trust people with a vested interest in the outcome of a change to be impartial in implementing it. If GW sees a change they don't like and deny it, you can be sure the person who suggested that change will be resolute in it being the magic bullet that fixes all the games ills, and like Baxx, spend the rest of their days trashing the game and its creators for not listening to their impeccable advice.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





 Sqorgar wrote:
 Altruizine wrote:
GW should just outsource the FAQ for something like this to the fans. There are people who will put in greater effort than anyone at GW has the time to, and GW will still have the final say upon review.
God no. Fans are fine at finding flaws, but they are terrible at correcting them. You can't trust people with a vested interest in the outcome of a change to be impartial in implementing it. If GW sees a change they don't like and deny it, you can be sure the person who suggested that change will be resolute in it being the magic bullet that fixes all the games ills, and like Baxx, spend the rest of their days trashing the game and its creators for not listening to their impeccable advice.

So, to summarize, your position over the past two pages is:

- the rules contain many typos and errors
- the rules contain many haphazard and incomplete ideas
- GW is pushing out the rules at an incredible rate and does not have time to extensively proof or FAQ them
- people who complain about the errors and incomplete ideas are "Engaged Detractors" who are making bad faith arguments
- people who pirate the error-filled, incomplete rules with no FAQs are immoral
- people who want the typos, errors and incomplete ideas to be fixed, with GW's endorsement, cannot be trusted to do this, because they will seek some sort of personal advantage
- individual players and gaming groups can be trusted to do this, because the solutions are obvious
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Altruizine wrote:

So, to summarize, your position over the past two pages is:

- the rules contain many typos and errors
I wouldn’t say many. But mistakes do happen.
- the rules contain many haphazard and incomplete ideas
I consider this a selling point. I think haphazard and incomplete ideas are more fun than overly polished mediocrity. Like I said, Necromunda is punk. Being rough around the edges is a side effect of going it’s own path.
- GW is pushing out the rules at an incredible rate and does not have time to extensively proof or FAQ them
Sure.
- people who complain about the errors and incomplete ideas are "Engaged Detractors" who are making bad faith arguments
No, just Baxx.
- people who pirate the error-filled, incomplete rules with no FAQs are immoral
Is this an unusual or unreasonable position? Also, there is a FAQ.
- people who want the typos, errors and incomplete ideas to be fixed, with GW's endorsement, cannot be trusted to do this, because they will seek some sort of personal advantage
Not intentionally, but yes. Fans have a hard time seeing things from the viewpoint of non-fans or even fans with different opinions. Get a group of like minded fans together and they will steer the game into what kind of game they want it to be, which may not be what’s in the best interest for everybody. They also tend to take “no” very poorly.
- individual players and gaming groups can be trusted to do this, because the solutions are obvious
I trust a handful of people to fix the game for their own group.I don’t trust them to fix the game for everybody. Most of the mistakes are obvious, but going by the yak tribe thread linked earlier, there’s a few things which I thought leapt to conclusions that were based on the answers they wanted, not what they could reasonably draw from what’s actually there. Again, fine for a group, but not appropriate for everyone.
   
Made in no
[DCM]
Necron of Munda





 Sqorgar wrote:
If GW sees a change they don't like and deny it, you can be sure the person who suggested that change will be resolute in it being the magic bullet that fixes all the games ills, and like Baxx, spend the rest of their days trashing the game and its creators for not listening to their impeccable advice.

Do you think I suggested rule changes to GW?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sqorgar wrote:
 Altruizine wrote:

So, to summarize, your position over the past two pages is:

- the rules contain many typos and errors
I wouldn’t say many. But mistakes do happen.
- the rules contain many haphazard and incomplete ideas

It is more than many errors, I've seen most of them. One could easily list up several pages summarizing errors.

The faq brought more confusion than it solved. It answered questions no one even cared to ask about! It would take very little time to clean up most of the errors before printing books. Instead, people ask every day for what the rules means, because it is impossible to understand.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/22 08:51:35


 
   
Made in nz
[MOD]
Villanous Scum






 BrookM wrote:
Kindly keep this thread for news and rumours, as I've said before in the past, take all discussion of custom house rules and how many errors one can find to a thread of its own please.

On parle toujours mal quand on n'a rien à dire.
Keeping the flame of Babylon 5 A Call to Arms alive, check it out;
Babylon 5 ACTA campaign log
Babylon 5 ACTA Painting log
Backfire wrote:
Nobody kills his dad and participates in genocide just for cosplay.
 
   
Made in ca
Posts with Authority




I'm from the future. The future of space

The issues with the latest release (Book of Judgement) is surely on topic. It's news about what the product is actually like. Or are we only allowed to point out the good things about the latest release?

The off topic problem though is that the errors are more of the same going back to the launch of underhive. Is it on or off topic to talk about how the community will react to the issues? About how it's disappointing that it's more of the same?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One thing I do find interesting is that they are not forcing Necromunda to go along with current 40k lore. No cicatrix, primaris, indomitus crusade, guillliman or anything like that. This continues in the Book of Judgement. I'm having a growing appreciation for the Eisenhorn era of 40k so I'm a fan of them not forcing Necromunda to change with the newest fiction.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/08/22 16:43:38


Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better. 
   
Made in us
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





Scotland, but nowhere near my rulebook

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Graphite wrote:
Do it! Do it! Do it!
Yeah, so, it turns out the eyes of GW are everywhere, as Andy E-mailed me before I could E-mail him.

If we want to give constructive good-faith feedback right to the horses mouth (so to speak), then I can pass it on.


I'm going to say "the Dev is in contact with someone here and listening if we're polite" is pretty newsworthy!

In that spirit - love the game, not keen on the strategy cards. Andy's an old school roleplayer, bring out the D100 tables!

For the second most recent release - the "Beastman" Venator profile seems to good at shooting. This isn't really a problem but seems wrong. Likewise scare grenades really don't seem to work as I believe they're intended to, and the debate on target priority for grenade launchers are epic. Not necessarily stuff that needs fixed, but a clarification on anything choices were made in designer notes would be fantastic.

If the mods don't want this sort of discussion here (which is fair enough) should we adjourn to a new thread?
   
Made in vn
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Graphite wrote:



For the second most recent release - the "Beastman" Venator profile seems to good at shooting. This isn't really a problem but seems wrong. Likewise scare grenades really don't seem to work as I believe they're intended to, and the debate on target priority for grenade launchers are epic. Not necessarily stuff that needs fixed, but a clarification on anything choices were made in designer notes would be fantastic.



What is the "Beastman" Venator Profile? I recall the only "beastman" profle with T4/S4 have crap BS+
   
Made in us
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





Scotland, but nowhere near my rulebook

Nope, that's for the Beastie hunt leader and champ with 5+. The normal Hunter is 4+.

Which really looks like a typo, but has the side effect of making the normal Squat a bit rubbish.
   
 
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