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Hey guys, this is my first post on Dakka Dakka. I love the site and have used it for my ork army countless times. So with that being said I am a to the core ork player but I really want to start an imperial fist army. I love their fluff as well as I feel I need to have at least some form of space marine list. I want to make a 1500 point Imperial Fist list that is pretty fluffy but can hold its own in a tournament. So here is the list I have so far.

HQ-355
Captain Lisander-Storm shield, Terminator armour, Iron Halo, The fist of Dorn
Terminator Librarian- storm shield, force weapon, ML2

Troops-520
X2 10 man Tactical squads with Grav-cannon, melta gun, Veteran Sergeant with melta bomb bolt pistol and power fist
X2 Drop pod with storm bolter as dedicated transports for the squads

Elite- 495
X1 five man terminator assault squad with storm shield and thunder hammmer
X1 Land Raider Crusader as dedicated transport

Heavy support- 130
X1 Vindicator with siege shield


So the idea behind this list is to throw the hamminators, Lisander, and the librarian into the land raider running up the field with two tact squads drop podding in behind the enemy. All the while the vindicator can lay down some fire support..That is the idea at least C&C is welcome I am completely new to space marines so be gentle haha. Ill be picking up the space marine codex next week,

Welcome to Dakka and the Space Marines.

Overall, you list looks OK. It might not be the most competitive thing out there, but should do fine at a more friendly FLGS.

Besides Lysander, you are not getting a whole lot of use out of your chapter tactics. Not that it’s terrible, just some synergies you are not taking advantage of.

I’d focus the tac squads a bit more. Go full grav with one, full melta with the other. I’d not bother with the vet upgrades on the sarges. And there is not a whole lot of reasons to take both a melta bomb and a power fist on the same guy. I’m not going to tell a Son of Dorn not to take a powerfist, but I think they are too much of an investment on a 1W guy with no save. You also generally want odd numbers of pods. Thematically I might move them to rhinos for a full mechanized list, but pods are quite nice, and probably mechanically superior.

I like a couple of LC guys in with my assault terminators. Help you blend through tarpits and MEQ. Not everything needs the hammer.

If you can find the points for the MM on the LRC, it will help with your AV firepower.

Seige shields are part of the visual aesthetic of the vind, but not worth the points IMHO. Also, you have next to no long range firepower in your list. I might sub him out for a LC pred.

I actually like the basis of this list, and a lot of good points that Nevelon has mentioned hold true.

The main thing about this list I like is the fact that it scales up well, and can be a part of a larger army down-the-road, without you having units that won't see play at larger games.

The LRC is a tough unit, and lots of fun... with lots of grav out there, it has seen better days, but you could always deep strike that whole unit and not deploy them in the LRC. Maybe stick one or two locator beacons on the pods in case of this?

With the advent of Cataphractii Terminators to the codex (through the Angels of Death supplement) I would recommend you take a look at them, over the regular ones. I really like the 4++ they come with alongside their twin-linked bolters, and I like to give them a chainfist (since knights are all over the place).

I also think the tac squads should probably just be "shooty", since that's what they do best. I like melta, combi-melta because there's pretty much no time when melta is not helpful. If you don't have vehicles to hit, S8 can always double something out!

As for the Vindicator, it's pretty cool in general, but sorta stinks on the table since it's not "fast". However, I think a couple/few of them can be fun and somewhat effective in clearing objectives in your backfield perhaps, so maybe that gives you a way to ramp up for higher point games.

If you dropped the Librarian, perhaps you could take another Vindicator.

One final point is the number of drop pods... in this list, I think you are actually better off with Rhinos, but try to maybe get a 3rd pod in there so you can choose to have your two tactical squads come in on turn 1?

Awesome guys I'm glad to be here and thanks for the info and the quick feedback. I do intend to upgrade to 1850 points maybe in another year or so haha for the ork army and the imp fists. So what are the benefits of a rhino over drop pods? Sorry for my lack of space marine knowledge.

Drop pods get you where you need to be, when you need to be there. Very front loaded mobility. Step out of the pod next to your target in optimal range. Of course, half of them are at the whimsy of your reserves roll. Not a huge deal, as you get to round up on the half that come in first turn (that’s why odd numbers) and you get to choose which ones. So the sternguard can drop first, and the tac squad can come later just to cap an objective (as an example).

Rhinos start on the table. So no worries about a unit you need not showing up until turn 4. They can change horses in midstream. Need to redeploy? Get back in the box and drive on. They also do well as mobile walls, blocking LOS to units behind them, and can pull some tricks with tank shock. Also little edge cases like night fighting, where it can roll up and spotlight something for other units to shoot. Lower risk/reward then pods, more flexible.

In your list as an example, one of the glaring flaws with the vindi is the paper side armor. So what you could do is run a rhino tight up next to it, preventing that side shot (or at least giving you cover)

Awesome it all makes a lot more sense now haha thank you for that post. So I will replace the drop pods with rhinos/razorbacks for sure but now for the tact squads. What in your opinion would be the optimal loadout to make them as flexible and viable as possible?

What to give tac squads is an age old question, and one with a lot of answers. I find they are a good place to shore up other gaps in your list.

I’m an old-school traditionalist Ultramarine, so take what I say with a grain of salt. Especially about the heavy weapon.

Always take the heavy and the special in a 10 man squad. It’s what the Codex dictates. Take a combi to match the squads special, or leave the sarge plain. CC weapons are generally a waste on tac squads.

That said, there are exceptions to everything. And so much depends on who you play, how competitive they are, the mood of your dice, etc.

Make sure the weapons want to shoot the same sort of thing, at the same range. This goes for everything. If you put a meltagun and a heavy bolter in the same squad, one of them is going to be taking a break while the other works. To get the most out of your squad, everyone should be working. Or those that are need to pull the weight of all the slackers.

That last bit leads into one of my go-to tactical squads, the full melta. MM/M, c-melta sarge. Bolters and melta never want to shoot the same thing. But, when the meltas shoot, there are enough of them to reasonably pop a tank, justifying the bolter boys sitting around. And as far as tac squads go, they are reasonably inexpensive.

I’m still getting the feel of my full grav squad, as my grav cannon has only been painted for a few games. It’s very expensive, but brings the pain. Grav kills the stuff that needs killing, and that we might otherwise have trouble with. The GC also works the best on the move, being salvo.

If I was going to suggest two tac squads, it would be one of each of the above. If I was putting together a list of my own, I’d take one of them (depending on what I needed more of in my list) and a venerable squad of ML/F, basic sarge marines that have been serving loyally since the RT days.

Another squad I’ve been fielding a lot lately is a HB/F, c-flamer squad. Good vs. light troops and hordes, and low cost. HBs work better for ‘Fists, and have the advantage of looking awesome.

Sweet! Thank you for the detailed reply. So now I am gonna do some homework on whether I want to field grav, melta, or plasma in my tact squads. Im with you on how awesome heavy bolters look haha and I would love to have one in a tact squad. I'm going to crunch some points and take the drop pods out and replace them with rhinos or razorbacks and try to squeeze in another tact squad. You have made some awesome points and you have made me rethink my tactics for the better haha. So i promise this is the last question. So actually two questions whats your thought on plasma and is a razorback better with a rhino since you can put some heavy weapons on it? Thank you for your time by the way.

I think for the most part grav is better then plasma these days. On foot, while on the move is one of the places that plasma still has an edge, so I think it’s still viable in tac squads. Honestly, I think the two are pretty interchangeable. That’s the guns. Grav cannons, while expensive are much, much better then plasma cannons. In general I try to avoid small blasts. You can never get enough guys under them, and they scatter at the worst time. In the context of tac squads, PCs are even worse, as you can’t snap fire them, while GC still shoot 3 shots at full BS.

Call me crazy and old fashioned, but I like full 10 man squads in a rhino. They have a purity of purpose. Drive fast, deliver the troops. Razors are more flexible. Sit back and shoot? Rush up? They can do both. You can kinda do that with a rhino sitting still while guys stick their heads out the top hatch to lob a shot downrange, but generally not as well.

I also like full 10 man squads for survivability. It’s not that hard to erase 5 MEQ these days. So if you want to hold that objective, you need more boots on the ground. And if I’m going to invest in vehicle based guns, I’d rather take a pred the a pair of razors.

That said there is a big advantage of the multiple small unit build. More targets, more things to kill. Each individual loss is less of an impact to the overall force.

Formations, and their restrictions and requirements also put a lot of spin on the discussion.

From a personal bias standpoint, I’m also more used to rhinos. I’ve owned two since the dawn of time. If I wanted to field a razor anytime before about 3 years ago, I needed to steal the chassis of my pred and the TLHB off my LR. That never happened. So most of my tactics and mindset is based upon the rhino. I do recognize the advantages of the razor, but practical limitations have always kept it a secondary option in my mind. A newer player without as much baggage might see things differently.

Also from a practical POV, never buy a rhino kit new. Any kit based on the rhino hull can be built as one, and most are a simple swap. A whirlwind and a razorback can be fielded as a rhino just by not gluing the top hatch on.

To add a bit more to the Rhino's case, I think Razorbacks are a bit of a trap... you are tempted to still take special weapons on the squad inside, even though they can't shoot out; you are tempted to stay back or barely move and shoot for full effect, which means you're not actually delivering the troops to places they need to be; a weak Razorback can be shaken easily so its shooting is less effective, quite often (plus it's not a fast unit); and overall the rhino is just wonderful for moving its full distance, going flat out, and then (if it survives) dump the troops out where you need them. I find that when you're not conflicted about the vehicle's purpose (should I stay and shoot, or get to cover and shoot the transport guns? Or move and flat out, WASTING my gun on top...to deliver the troops), you can focus on the things that matter more and have mroe fun... plus, save the points.

Awesome advice guys! thank you for the info packed replies I will definitely go for the rhinos for my tact squads. I looked into the gladius strike force that lets you take rhinos for free but I am not to sure whether the gladius strike force would synergize well with imp fists due to the unit limitations and such. Once I get my codex this coming week Ill sit down and study it to see if theres a "good" formation for me to use. Coming from an ork player I have literally used maybe 1 formation my whole 40k career so it is an extremely new concept for me haha.