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I recently won a tournament and used the store credit I won to start a new army, Space Wolves. I like the idea of a dreadnought list but don't know anything about other marine chapter dreads. So I wanted to know what you all thought. Which marine army has the best Dreadnoughts and why?

I can't speak to the effectiveness of Space Wolf dreadnoughts in-game, I've never seen anyone field one in person.

But I've built pretty much one of every other modern dreadnought kit at one point or another (maybe four or five venerable dreads for different occasions) and they're probably my favourite kits in the range.

The role dreadnoughts used to have is now fulfilled by knights.
The high rate of fire and crazy melee shenanigans makes dreads way too vulnerable. If you are going to use one, use one that has a higher survival rate such as the AV13 ones or those who carry around a shield.

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:
Which marine army has the best Dreadnoughts and why?

The Legions.

If you've got a fairly open minded play group, there's even a Rite that lets you build an exclusively Dreadnought army. Plus Deredeo wreck at range and Leviathans wreck at close quarters.

Only Blood Angels and Space Wolves have truly special dreads; vanilla only has the Ironclad (which is basically an anti-armor version of the Furioso, which I think is utterly overkill) and the GKs just has Psychic Pilot tacked on (Dark Angels don't have any special dreads at all and don't even get me started on CSM helbrutes).

Here's the basic rundown: Blood Angels have DC dreads, which have 5 attack base as of the errata. They can basically delete a squad of marines every two turns, but their main problem is reaching combat. Their other "weird" dread is the Librarian Dreadnought, which is actually better than the GK's psychic Dread in that you get access to better psychic Powers, Furioso equipment, and is a HQ choice. The Furioso Dreadnought is simply a more heavily armored, two-armed Dread that can rip and tear in close combat. Think of it as the melee equivallent of the Rifleman dread.


Space Wolves bring some unique stuff of their own. For one, they have two special character Dreads; Bjorn and Murderfang. Bjorn is ridiculously awesome; he has a choice of ranged weapons (including a Helfrost cannon), has superior armor, a Invul save if I remember, Trueclaw (which is a dreadnought lightning claw) and more attacks than even the DC dread. The only downside to him is that he costs almost as much as a Land Raider and is your only HQ dread (and obviously Unique) so be prepared for your opponent to single him out harder than a pimple on a teenager's face. The other special character is Murderfang, who is like a DC dread with 20% more wolf. Use him as such. Finally, Space Wolf Dreads of all kinds get access to some unique equipment; Helfrost Cannons (which can be devastating if you use them right) and the Great Frost Axe and Shield, which can greatly improve their durability.

Space Wolves Dreadnoughts and Drop Pods.
Champions Of Fenris Detachment
HQ Bjorn the Fell Handed.
Elites 3x Dreads+Murderfang
Ancients of the Fang Formation Detachment
3x Dreads+Iron Priest

Dreads have an issue with durability. Iron Hands solves this problem very well. A Contempor would have a 5++ in addition to IWND. Av13/12 ain't too shabby with those additions.

I think the prevalence of Eldar Scatbikes is what has made Dreadnoughts irrelevant. Such cheap, fast-moving S6 shooting makes even Tau jealous (and Tau are no slouches as far as shooting!). A decent number of Scatbikes can glance even an Imperial Knight to death.

On the subject of Dreads, how does a Squadron charge?

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
On the subject of Dreads, how does a Squadron charge?

The same way a unit charges. What about being a squadron would change that?

Do not forget a Lucius pattern dread. Makes them somewhat reliableb

Being a Vehicle Squadron rather than a regular Unit for a start - mostly I'm curious about conga lines and Look Out Sir rulings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and Counter Charge.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Being a Vehicle Squadron rather than a regular Unit for a start - mostly I'm curious about conga lines and Look Out Sir rulings.

Vehicle Squadrons are regular units.

Seriously? No rules stopping me fom adding ICs, Counter Charging conga lining or LOS!ing?
Awesome.
Simply awesome.

I think the Blood Angels have the ability to field the most Dreadnoughts in single army, but the sheer variety that are available to a Vanilla Marines player is pretty cool as well. I have argued in the past for Dreadnoughts to be restatted as Monstrous Creatures, but with the recent Melta Bombs thing, they're a lot more viable now. If Monstrous Creatures were to lose Smash as standard (or if Smash were to change slightly), I think Dreadnoughts would become the go-to Anti-Monster choice for the Imperium.

I'm a massive fan of Dreadnoughts, and I disagree with the notion that they don't have a place in modern 40k. They're cheap enough to be a good choice in small to medium-sized games, can bolster a Rhino Rush very handily. The Drop Pod and the Storm Raven are both excellent delivery methods (despite what a lot of people seem to think), and there isn't really a bad weapon option for them. Knights do the same job, but they're such an order of magnitude apart that they really shouldn't be compared. Incidentally, I'm not a fan of Contemptors outside of 30k.I think the squat, boxy Dreads suit the 40k style much better.


The one thing I think could be improved is scaling. With the average size of games no spiralling well and truly out of control, there needs to be a practical delivery method for a full Talon of Dreads. Perhaps a converted Storm Raven? A lot of the games played at my club are now >2500pts, which actually leaves some of us unable to play a full game in the three hours!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Seriously? No rules stopping me fom adding ICs, Counter Charging conga lining or LOS!ing?
Awesome.
Simply awesome.

There was a precedent set by the Tau Commander Shadowsun. where they stopped you being able to attach her to a unit of Riptides. I can't recall the exact wording, but I have a feeling it said that you can only attach a Character to a unit that shares its unit type, so attaching an Infantry character to a unit of Monsters wouldn't be allowed. I'd say this would extend to units of vehicles as well. Might be worth investigating, though.

 Spineyguy wrote:
There was a precedent set by the Tau Commander Shadowsun. where they stopped you being able to attach her to a unit of Riptides. I can't recall the exact wording, but I have a feeling it said that you can only attach a Character to a unit that shares its unit type, so attaching an Infantry character to a unit of Monsters wouldn't be allowed. I'd say this would extend to units of vehicles as well. Might be worth investigating, though.

The change was from 6th to 7th - GW added Monstrous Creatures to the rule that prevents you attaching Independent Characters to a unit containing Vehicles (first part of the IC rules, page 166).
Attaching an IC to a unit with a different Type is completely legal - you can attach an IC on a bike to an Infantry unit, or a Jump Infantry IC to a Cavalry unit etc.

Dakka Wolf seemed under the impressions that a squadron wasn't like a normal unit, and would charge in some weird and wonderful way. It doesn't - it's a unit, and charges just like any other unit, and all models have to shoot at the same target etc. etc..

Look Out Sir! doesn't work, even though you can get Character vehicles, because it triggers off Wounds, not Glancing / Penetrating hits (unless I've missed something in the new FAQ's).
Counter Charge I'm not going to touch as I don't have the wording.

If you want a MOSTLY TRUE Dreadnought army, You would have to play BA (well flesh Tearers)

1. Use the Flesh Tearers Strike Force FOC (6 Fast Attack,3 Troops,1 Compulsory)
2. Field Cassor The Damned (from Deathstorm) as your Troops Choice
3. Field 2 Librarian Dreadnoughts as your HQ
4. Your Choice of Dreadnoughts in Elites
5. 6 Drop Pods 'Nuff Said
6. Choice of 3 Leviathans (Requires a Techmarine, BA Techmarines CANNOT make Dreads Elites and Fast Attack) Or 3 Stormravens
7. ???
8. PROFIT

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Being a Vehicle Squadron rather than a regular Unit for a start - mostly I'm curious about conga lines and Look Out Sir rulings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and Counter Charge.

What CrownAxe said, they are a regular unit. If you're still not sure, think of them like a 3 man squad of really big Marines who have a 4" coherency but otherwise all other rules are exactly the same. If you can get countercharge on your dreads, then they all get +1 attack each the turn they get charged. If one of your dreads is a character, look out sir works just the same (4+ since you're a character, but not an independent character)

 Quanar wrote:

 Spineyguy wrote:
There was a precedent set by the Tau Commander Shadowsun. where they stopped you being able to attach her to a unit of Riptides. I can't recall the exact wording, but I have a feeling it said that you can only attach a Character to a unit that shares its unit type, so attaching an Infantry character to a unit of Monsters wouldn't be allowed. I'd say this would extend to units of vehicles as well. Might be worth investigating, though.

The change was from 6th to 7th - GW added Monstrous Creatures to the rule that prevents you attaching Independent Characters to a unit containing Vehicles (first part of the IC rules, page 166).
Attaching an IC to a unit with a different Type is completely legal - you can attach an IC on a bike to an Infantry unit, or a Jump Infantry IC to a Cavalry unit etc.

Dakka Wolf seemed under the impressions that a squadron wasn't like a normal unit, and would charge in some weird and wonderful way. It doesn't - it's a unit, and charges just like any other unit, and all models have to shoot at the same target etc. etc..

Look Out Sir! doesn't work, even though you can get Character vehicles, because it triggers off Wounds, not Glancing / Penetrating hits (unless I've missed something in the new FAQ's).
Counter Charge I'm not going to touch as I don't have the wording.

Christ, I am so out-of-date.

Just wanted to throw in, that Chaos has 4 formations around their helbrutes which do improve them, one of them allowing for deep strike, two of them giving you a character-dreadnought. Also, in IA13 you get infernus dreadnoughts with the ability to upgrade them to front armour 13, also allowing marks of chaos.
Not sure if I'd build an army around it, but with the recent +2A, infernus dreads, sonic dreads, contemptor dreads, helbrute formations and additional decimators chaos definitaly has sth. to offer for dreadnought fans

 Drasius wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Being a Vehicle Squadron rather than a regular Unit for a start - mostly I'm curious about conga lines and Look Out Sir rulings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and Counter Charge.

What CrownAxe said, they are a regular unit. If you're still not sure, think of them like a 3 man squad of really big Marines who have a 4" coherency but otherwise all other rules are exactly the same. If you can get countercharge on your dreads, then they all get +1 attack each the turn they get charged. If one of your dreads is a character, look out sir works just the same (4+ since you're a character, but not an independent character)

Everybody gets Counter Attack confused with Counter Charge.
Counter Charge enables an unengaged Wolf Claw Strike Force unit to Charge into a melee initiated by the opposing player - at the end of the opposing player's charge subphase.
As for the LOS! the squadron in question is the Ancient of the Fang composed of an Iron Priest and 2-5 Dreads. The Iron Priest is an IC meaning the Dreads should be able to LOS! defend him unless there is a Vehicle rule that prevents it. Pretty epic if you can compose a unit with 4 Cyberwolves, an Iron Priest an a heap of Dreads, choose to tank shots on a t5 2+, 6++ IC or a 3++ AV12 Dread. Missiles? Iron Priest says no. Poison? Dreads say no.

So if I go with a ancients of the fang or curse born formation from the wulfen supplement do those formation get counter charge? Was thinking about Blackmanes Alpha strike with these other formations for support.

Ancients of the Fang contains dreads and the Iron Priest in the formation but only the dreads join together into a single unit. The Iron Priest is still an IC that isn't attached and cannot join vehicles.

Vehicles and Monstrous Creature restriction. It never actually states that the Priest is part of the squadron so BRB would define that he can't be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:
So if I go with a ancients of the fang or curse born formation from the wulfen supplement do those formation get counter charge? Was thinking about Blackmanes Alpha strike with these other formations for support.

As long as they're part of Wolf Claw Strike Force they do, only problem is that Counter Charge is like Fear. Fear is a cool effect but almost everything it would be useful against is immune or has stupidly high leadership. Counter Charge is great except very few armies have units that will charge Space Wolves.

For a full dreadnought army just use champions of fenris. Bjorn as the HQ, fill elite spots accordingly.

I know it won't be real competitive but it will sure be fun to see the look on my opponents face. Especially if some come by drop pod. Like murder fang

For me If your a marine player you don't leave home without one. They are so iconic of our army that one should always be present. Fluff before crunch

I'd consider checking out some of the options in Angels of Death. You can build a Decurion style detatchment a fill a lot of slots with Dreadnoughts and give them bonuses. For example, in the Armored Might Formation you can make your Core Formation a cheap Armored Task Force, (Just a Techmarine with three tanks, cheapest being Whirlwinds) then the rest of your Decurion can be Honoured Ancients, which is just Dreadnoughts, and as many as you want of them. All vehicles in the Formation ignore Crew Shaken/Crew Stunned results, and you can choose a Dred to be your Warlord and it gets a Warlord Trait that allows himself or another nearby vehicle to fire again at the end of the shooting phase.

Or you can do the same thing with Iron Hands, and you get different bonuses, like vehicles near a character gain Machine Spirit, and It Will Not Die.

While we are on the subject of dreadnoughts, does anyone have experience with leviathans? I've got 2 and a dreadnought pod arriving monday. One with melta lance and claw, another with 2 storm cannons.

Anyone care to share their leviathan experiences? Are the worth the points? They are almost as much as a damn knight with 2 less HPS and no independent targeting, but have better weapons at close range , a 4+ invuln on every facing and are better in CC (IMO).

im going to run 1 tomorrow for the first time...so ill get back to you on it.

I think with 2 you will need to run a techmarine character as well as a requirement.

here is a link to the list im going to run... 5 dreads
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/702092.page