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I was wondering if people could speak to the various Leviathan Pattern SiegeDreads and the effectiveness of their load-outs? On the one hand, one built to fire 6, 18" Melta shots sounds delicious, and threatening, especially tucked into a Lucius Pattern Drop-Pod, but that is already approaching Imperial Knight Points, for what I assume is a significantly less durable platform.

What about built with two Siege-Claws/Drills? That brings the price in points down a fair bit, and makes for a close combat monster, but with typical Walker speed he's also easily avoided/ignored all game.

It does depend on the opponent. A Leviathan is wasted killing Ork walkers, but has a fairly solid chance of winning its points back against superheavies (which it can take on and win against under good conditions). Reaching Imperial Knight points it does do easily, but it can also kill a Knight when played right.

I normally go for one Claw/Drill and Melta Lance or double Melta Lances - these have killed Knights, I've done it. Some people like the Grav Flux Bombard but I've never used it.

Also if your opponent has fortifications they can kiss those goodbye with a Siege-Drill Leviathan.

The only reason I ask, is because Dreadnoughts are making a slight return due to being so durable against Warp Spider/Eldar Bike spam, but I imagine Walker speed means you'll never actually catch these units.

So I was debating getting a Leviathan or Deredeo, but think Deredeo might be better as a back-field, long range shooter, if he's just going to camp an objective all game long.

That said, Leviathan with double Melta Lances sounds sexy, as does double Siege Drills in a Lucius Pod just disrupting the hell out of an opponents line, and demanding to be dealt with.

In my opinion, the LSD is more durable than a Knight - 13/13/12 for the LSD vs 13/12/12 on the Knight, and the LSD always has a +4 Invun all the time vs the Knight's +4 invun on one side and not in CC.

A Knight is more mobile on the ground and is very resilient to battle damage (weapon destroyed, etc), but the LSD wins out by being able to deploy in a Lucius Pod and attack straight out of it on turn 1. An LSD will ANNIHILATE a Knight not packing a Reaper Chainsword, especially with 5 Init on the charge and two HoW attacks.

An LSD packing two storm cannons is almost as good as a Knight packing two gatling cannons, especially with ballistic skill 5 and Sunder and the Str. 7 Ap 3. It basically chews through armor and infantry.

It's close, but I like the LSD more than an Imperial Knight for almost everything.

Look at the price points though. Once you buy the pod and then a range weapon (which makes them lose an attack) the Knight is more attractive again.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Look at the price points though. Once you buy the pod and then a range weapon (which makes them lose an attack) the Knight is more attractive again.

This is only true if you fail to select a loadout for a specific role for the LSD. You don't need a Pod for a dual-storm cannon Leviathan - its role is to sit back and tear everything to pieces with ap3 and Sunder.
A Pod IS required for an LSD with double claw or claw/drill.

LSD w/ dual storm cannon - 325 pts
LSD w/ dual claw - 285 (with Lucius Pod - 335)
LSD w/ claw / drill - 290 (with Lucius Pod - 340)

These are likely the most effective loadouts for an LSD, and even with the Pod, is cheaper than any Knight.

I'll take the knight vs the field.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Look at the price points though. Once you buy the pod and then a range weapon (which makes them lose an attack) the Knight is more attractive again.

This is only true if you fail to select a loadout for a specific role for the LSD. You don't need a Pod for a dual-storm cannon Leviathan - its role is to sit back and tear everything to pieces with ap3 and Sunder.
A Pod IS required for an LSD with double claw or claw/drill.

LSD w/ dual storm cannon - 325 pts
LSD w/ dual claw - 285 (with Lucius Pod - 335)
LSD w/ claw / drill - 290 (with Lucius Pod - 340)

These are likely the most effective loadouts for an LSD, and even with the Pod, is cheaper than any Knight.

Consider that the Gatling + Battle Cannon isn't much more, I'd rather have the Imperial Knight, which won't be tarpitted forever.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Look at the price points though. Once you buy the pod and then a range weapon (which makes them lose an attack) the Knight is more attractive again.

This is only true if you fail to select a loadout for a specific role for the LSD. You don't need a Pod for a dual-storm cannon Leviathan - its role is to sit back and tear everything to pieces with ap3 and Sunder.
A Pod IS required for an LSD with double claw or claw/drill.

LSD w/ dual storm cannon - 325 pts
LSD w/ dual claw - 285 (with Lucius Pod - 335)
LSD w/ claw / drill - 290 (with Lucius Pod - 340)

These are likely the most effective loadouts for an LSD, and even with the Pod, is cheaper than any Knight.

Consider that the Gatling + Battle Cannon isn't much more, I'd rather have the Imperial Knight, which won't be tarpitted forever.

No arguing with that. Knights are definitely more all-purpose units, but built properly, the LSD fulfills a more specific role in a way that seems better to me. I own one LSD and one Knight, and the LSD is always placed in a Pod and sent in to murder a specific target on turn one. Almost nothing stops it, and if left alone, it will rampage through the backfield. Love em both, just in different roles.

I hate that the leviathan can still be exploded, despite being more expensive than a Riptide by an enormous amount.

Personally while the knight is better it is easier to see which gives it better LOS, but also makes it easier to kill.

The problem for leviathans, as with everything that is expensive is D weapons don't care about your stats and he problem for all walkers is that immobilize makes you nearly useless.

FW needs to update the rules/prices for all of their dread variants/make them take able in decurions before I will really consider taking them and buying more weapons. It sucks that I can take a unit of three contemptors wth limited options in a Demi company.

D weapons don't care about your stats

true, but with 4 hull points and a 4++ save, you can survive anything other than a deathblow fairly well - and a deathblow would have blown a knight/wraithknight to pieces too.

I hate that the leviathan can still be exploded, despite being more expensive than a Riptide by an enormous amount.

It can, but explodes isn't that easy to get, and the same applies in reverse with Instant Death. If I had to complain about something, it's probably more justified to be bugged by Immobilized.

In a 40k game, grav weapons mean immobilized results happen a lot. Even in a 30k game, immobilized is possible with a non-AP2 penetrating hit, and either case leaves an assault-armed leviathan kind of buggered.

The other big thing you lose relative to a knight is stomp. I'd trust a leviathan to go through a normal squad, but they can be tarpitted by hordes (like, for example, Imperial militia levy/imperial guard conscripts) for a hell of a long time.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
In my opinion, the LSD is more durable than a Knight - 13/13/12 for the LSD vs 13/12/12 on the Knight, and the LSD always has a +4 Invun all the time vs the Knight's +4 invun on one side and not in CC.

A Knight is more mobile on the ground and is very resilient to battle damage (weapon destroyed, etc), but the LSD wins out by being able to deploy in a Lucius Pod and attack straight out of it on turn 1. An LSD will ANNIHILATE a Knight not packing a Reaper Chainsword, especially with 5 Init on the charge and two HoW attacks.

An LSD packing two storm cannons is almost as good as a Knight packing two gatling cannons, especially with ballistic skill 5 and Sunder and the Str. 7 Ap 3. It basically chews through armor and infantry.

It's close, but I like the LSD more than an Imperial Knight for almost everything.

You realize a Lucius Pod no longer allows you to charge out of deep strike, right? It just gets shrouded for the turn (and in HH, and I'm sure soon 40k proper, can even be shot while in the pod!)

I think my main point is that with many vehicles, especially armor 12+ you are paying a premium to be immune to entire swathes of weapons. Especially at 13 when you can ignore str 6 and for the most part strength 7.

Grav and D basically say "All those points you spent are worthless" and they are prevalent enough to make it so that it is just not worth bringing. Now if walkers got immune to immobilize or something similar then I could see running dreads as there are usually not enough D shots at range to make it a concern.

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
In my opinion, the LSD is more durable than a Knight - 13/13/12 for the LSD vs 13/12/12 on the Knight, and the LSD always has a +4 Invun all the time vs the Knight's +4 invun on one side and not in CC.

A Knight is more mobile on the ground and is very resilient to battle damage (weapon destroyed, etc), but the LSD wins out by being able to deploy in a Lucius Pod and attack straight out of it on turn 1. An LSD will ANNIHILATE a Knight not packing a Reaper Chainsword, especially with 5 Init on the charge and two HoW attacks.

An LSD packing two storm cannons is almost as good as a Knight packing two gatling cannons, especially with ballistic skill 5 and Sunder and the Str. 7 Ap 3. It basically chews through armor and infantry.

It's close, but I like the LSD more than an Imperial Knight for almost everything.

You realize a Lucius Pod no longer allows you to charge out of deep strike, right? It just gets shrouded for the turn (and in HH, and I'm sure soon 40k proper, can even be shot while in the pod!)

No, I was not aware of that. The Lucius has the Assault Vehicle special rule, why does it no longer work?

The special rule for the Lucius in the IA2 update says:

Assault Vehicle: A Dreadnought disembarking a Lucius Pattern
Dreadnought Drop Pod can launch an assault the turn it does so.
(Note this differs from the rules for normal drop pods).

Knight wins because of one 6 roll from grav will make a melee LSD worthless... and grav is everywhere, unfortunately.

I actually think the LSD ranged version is an attractive option over the double gattling knight though. Remember that they can be pretty effective with a slight buff from a psyker, and even though you don't have stomp, as a ranged variant you shouldn't need it.

12 S6 AP3 Rending Shots and two Battle Cannon shots is a lot better than 12 S7 AP3 Sunder shots. Not even close to being more attractive.

Leviathans need Chapter Tactics. I don't understand why they don't. FW should really know it isn't broken. At all.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
In my opinion, the LSD is more durable than a Knight - 13/13/12 for the LSD vs 13/12/12 on the Knight, and the LSD always has a +4 Invun all the time vs the Knight's +4 invun on one side and not in CC.

A Knight is more mobile on the ground and is very resilient to battle damage (weapon destroyed, etc), but the LSD wins out by being able to deploy in a Lucius Pod and attack straight out of it on turn 1. An LSD will ANNIHILATE a Knight not packing a Reaper Chainsword, especially with 5 Init on the charge and two HoW attacks.

An LSD packing two storm cannons is almost as good as a Knight packing two gatling cannons, especially with ballistic skill 5 and Sunder and the Str. 7 Ap 3. It basically chews through armor and infantry.

It's close, but I like the LSD more than an Imperial Knight for almost everything.

You realize a Lucius Pod no longer allows you to charge out of deep strike, right? It just gets shrouded for the turn (and in HH, and I'm sure soon 40k proper, can even be shot while in the pod!)

No, I was not aware of that. The Lucius has the Assault Vehicle special rule, why does it no longer work?

The special rule for the Lucius in the IA2 update says:

Assault Vehicle: A Dreadnought disembarking a Lucius Pattern
Dreadnought Drop Pod can launch an assault the turn it does so.
(Note this differs from the rules for normal drop pods).

Lucius pattern Drop Pods have been updated a while back in the new book: IMPERIAL ARMOUR VOLUME TWO SECOND EDITION - WAR MACHINES OF THE ADEPTUS ASTARTES.

You can no longer assault right after the deep strike. You now have the option to stay embarked or disembark. The pod and dread gain shrouded on the turn it arrives (and the next opponent turn). It retains the assault vehicle rule, meaning that if you decide to stay embarked when deep striking, you can assault after disembarking next turn.

Well, that destroys a lot of the use I had in mind for the LSD. Way to kick dreads when they're down, Forgeworld!

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Well, that destroys a lot of the use I had in mind for the LSD. Way to kick dreads when they're down, Forgeworld!

It isn't their fault. Nothing assaults out of Deep Strike anymore unless there's a formation rule permitting it. Therefore, the bonus to surviving is pretty damn awesome.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Well, that destroys a lot of the use I had in mind for the LSD. Way to kick dreads when they're down, Forgeworld!

It isn't their fault. Nothing assaults out of Deep Strike anymore unless there's a formation rule permitting it. Therefore, the bonus to surviving is pretty damn awesome.

Surviving, yes, but not bringing down something like a Knight or other super-heavy, which is the role the LSD should play. A whole turn to move away or block a charge with tarpit units really kills the viability of the LSD making its points back. Very unfortunate.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
In my opinion, the LSD is more durable than a Knight - 13/13/12 for the LSD vs 13/12/12 on the Knight, and the LSD always has a +4 Invun all the time vs the Knight's +4 invun on one side and not in CC.

A Knight is more mobile on the ground and is very resilient to battle damage (weapon destroyed, etc), but the LSD wins out by being able to deploy in a Lucius Pod and attack straight out of it on turn 1. An LSD will ANNIHILATE a Knight not packing a Reaper Chainsword, especially with 5 Init on the charge and two HoW attacks.

An LSD packing two storm cannons is almost as good as a Knight packing two gatling cannons, especially with ballistic skill 5 and Sunder and the Str. 7 Ap 3. It basically chews through armor and infantry.

It's close, but I like the LSD more than an Imperial Knight for almost everything.

Well, the Dread can't assault out of the pod on Turn 1. What it can do is shoot out of the pod, and stay embarked, then charging out on the 2nd turn.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
In my opinion, the LSD is more durable than a Knight - 13/13/12 for the LSD vs 13/12/12 on the Knight, and the LSD always has a +4 Invun all the time vs the Knight's +4 invun on one side and not in CC.

A Knight is more mobile on the ground and is very resilient to battle damage (weapon destroyed, etc), but the LSD wins out by being able to deploy in a Lucius Pod and attack straight out of it on turn 1. An LSD will ANNIHILATE a Knight not packing a Reaper Chainsword, especially with 5 Init on the charge and two HoW attacks.

An LSD packing two storm cannons is almost as good as a Knight packing two gatling cannons, especially with ballistic skill 5 and Sunder and the Str. 7 Ap 3. It basically chews through armor and infantry.

It's close, but I like the LSD more than an Imperial Knight for almost everything.

Well, the Dread can't assault out of the pod on Turn 1. What it can do is shoot out of the pod, and stay embarked, then charging out on the 2nd turn.

Indeed, but shooting with two siege claws or a claw and a drill isn't too effective. Mixing up the weapon loadouts isn't optimal, so it looks like the ranged versions are best. Double storm cannon or possibly double cyclonic melta in a pod are likely the best versions now.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Well, that destroys a lot of the use I had in mind for the LSD. Way to kick dreads when they're down, Forgeworld!

It isn't their fault. Nothing assaults out of Deep Strike anymore unless there's a formation rule permitting it. Therefore, the bonus to surviving is pretty damn awesome.

To be fair... in the last two months, two armies have gotten ultra-easy access to assaulting-from-deepstrike. Its apparently coming back in popularity, and in the mind's of GW, is probably the fix to the assault/close-combat part of the game. :-p

Use the melta arm and the anti-mc claw. All problems fixed. Shoot vehicles and assault mcs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Well, that destroys a lot of the use I had in mind for the LSD. Way to kick dreads when they're down, Forgeworld!

It isn't their fault. Nothing assaults out of Deep Strike anymore unless there's a formation rule permitting it. Therefore, the bonus to surviving is pretty damn awesome.

To be fair... in the last two months, two armies have gotten ultra-easy access to assaulting-from-deepstrike. Its apparently coming back in popularity, and in the mind's of GW, is probably the fix to the assault/close-combat part of the game. :-p

Maybe for csm, but the ba formations are useless.

Oh, I didn't say the armies got GREAT access to assault-from-deepstrike... just that it is showing up more and more often again. :-p

Trust me... I have boxes full of Genestealers that, even for funsies, would kill for some boring-ass formation that helps them not stand around and get murdered for a turn before doing something.

Martel732 wrote:
Use the melta arm and the anti-mc claw. All problems fixed. Shoot vehicles and assault mcs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Well, that destroys a lot of the use I had in mind for the LSD. Way to kick dreads when they're down, Forgeworld!

It isn't their fault. Nothing assaults out of Deep Strike anymore unless there's a formation rule permitting it. Therefore, the bonus to surviving is pretty damn awesome.

To be fair... in the last two months, two armies have gotten ultra-easy access to assaulting-from-deepstrike. Its apparently coming back in popularity, and in the mind's of GW, is probably the fix to the assault/close-combat part of the game. :-p

Maybe for csm, but the ba formations are useless.

The Terminator one is okay kinda, but I agree the Sanguine Guard one is awful.

Issue with replacing an arm is that you lose an attack. Leviathans aren't 4 attacks base. They incorporated the bonus in the profile.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
In my opinion, the LSD is more durable than a Knight - 13/13/12 for the LSD vs 13/12/12 on the Knight, and the LSD always has a +4 Invun all the time vs the Knight's +4 invun on one side and not in CC.

A Knight is more mobile on the ground and is very resilient to battle damage (weapon destroyed, etc), but the LSD wins out by being able to deploy in a Lucius Pod and attack straight out of it on turn 1. An LSD will ANNIHILATE a Knight not packing a Reaper Chainsword, especially with 5 Init on the charge and two HoW attacks.

An LSD packing two storm cannons is almost as good as a Knight packing two gatling cannons, especially with ballistic skill 5 and Sunder and the Str. 7 Ap 3. It basically chews through armor and infantry.

It's close, but I like the LSD more than an Imperial Knight for almost everything.

I feel like this is extremely short-sighted for one reason- Grav. Well, really, its Grav + the Immobilized result. But Grav nonetheless is the meta. It is here to stay, and it will immobilize the LSD every time it gets targeted. Do the math for how many sixes get rolled when a Centurion Dev squad shoots at it, including the re-rolls for grav-amps. You would have to be very lucky to roll that many 4+ invuln saves. Hope you brought decent guns because the LSD isn't going anywhere as soon as your opponent shoots it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Use the melta arm and the anti-mc claw. All problems fixed. Shoot vehicles and assault mcs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Well, that destroys a lot of the use I had in mind for the LSD. Way to kick dreads when they're down, Forgeworld!

It isn't their fault. Nothing assaults out of Deep Strike anymore unless there's a formation rule permitting it. Therefore, the bonus to surviving is pretty damn awesome.

To be fair... in the last two months, two armies have gotten ultra-easy access to assaulting-from-deepstrike. Its apparently coming back in popularity, and in the mind's of GW, is probably the fix to the assault/close-combat part of the game. :-p

Maybe for csm, but the ba formations are useless.

The Terminator one is okay kinda, but I agree the Sanguine Guard one is awful.

Issue with replacing an arm is that you lose an attack. Leviathans aren't 4 attacks base. They incorporated the bonus in the profile.

Who cares? Each attack is D3 wounds. You'll still get 4 on the charge.

I run my LSD w/ claw / drill/cerimite plating (with Lucius Pod w/legacy of Glor Isstvan V - 380)

The guy is an absolute beast against anything in close combat. He murders Knights as well as vehicals and squads of tough dudes. Ye he can be tar pitted.. but if he is. That expensive tar pit is also doing nothing.

The trick with him is to actually run him with other Pods. I prefer pods with more dreads such as IronClads and I even run him with another expensive Dread the Salamanders Ashmantle.

I go Sally because frankly I love Salamanders and it allows me to bring in Ashmantle who does one hell of a job at killing tar pit units. Giving up an attack to autohit with S5AP4 all models in BtB . If my Leviathan gets bogged. Ashmantle has jumped in to help clear things up from time to time. Not often but if needed he can.

I use pods to hem in units I want my Dreads to get in contact with on next turn. The Pods also give me cover with good placement. the key is to surround units that need to be delt with such as units that have Grav or Knights.

I use the Salamander Chapter tactic to Heavy flamer everything I can. Even fast bikers with Gravs die when surrounded by S5 shredding shots that they cant jink save out of.

The Lucius pod is a must for the LSD I even suggest spending the points on the legacy of Glory. It puts him right where he needs to go without scatter. Especially your opponents backfield.. or it makes sure I don't go within range of things that can hurt him.

I have even paired the Pods up with an inquisitor and servo skulls to futher my drop accuracy.

Culexuses are also great to bring along to shut down any Invis powers so ican flame with all my Dreads.

4-5 dreads come in on the drop depending on if I need the culexus. by turn 2 all are usually in CC with something.