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Hi guys, I started Warhammer again shortly before the release of AoS, with an Isle of Blood box to play High Elves. I bought some other units after that but now that I'm motivated again to paint some WHFB models I'm thinking about my first list, at 1000 pts. So I play High Elves, and had a few questions for the veterans of WHFB, be it 8th edition, before or beyond.

Is it worth it to invest a good amount of your army with troops that can shoot ? I'm thinking about putting my 5 Ellyrian Reavers and my 10 Sea Guards somewhere once but honestly I fear shooting is not really efficient. I ran two small skirmishes against my wife's Khorne Demons and in two shooting phases my 10 guards killed like... 3 Bloodletters. Having to throw 3 to 4 dice to check if it's dead (with just 10 shots) seems far too much and I feel like it would be a waste of points to have them. Now I don't know about real shooty units like Avelorn Sisters or the Balist, but I hope they're better at killing stuff.

Any thoughts about that ? Should an High Elf army focus on melee and magic ? I have a foot Mage, and a Prince/Noble on great eagle, but the Prince's cost is too high to put on a 1000 or even 1500 pts list. My plan is to focus on Swordmasters and Phoenix Guards to do the killing, with a base made of full cavalry (Silver Helms and Reavers), but I don't know if that's good or not. I don't like Spearmen and Sea Guards are a hell to paint, and I don't really like their models to be honest.

Thanks for reading Any advice or remarks are welcome ! I can post my current 1000 pts list (never tested, don't have all the units yet) if anyone wants.

In Warhammer shooting is generally weaker than melee, there are exceptions to this rule but they are few and far between and normally involve artillery anyway.

Orcs, Dwarfs and Empire are the main shooting factions, and even then only Dwarfs are habitually used as gun lines. Wood elves normally work as a shooting faction and are according to the fluff the main shooting army, but this actually only works as skirmishers, if you expect ranks of wood elves to stop an advance you will be wrong, and when they reach you your army has probably lost.

the bottom line is that bows crossbows, handguns etc are great for dealing with minimum chaff units, and that is about that. Bowfire will NOT stop an infantry block, or f it idoes you will need your whole army to shoot one unit, stop one unit and let the rest through. and that unit cant be anything with an outlandish toughness or armour save, i.e something you actually need to stop.

To actually stop units you need a Hellblaster - because its nasty, or spear chukkas - because they are stupid cheap, or whatever the dwarves decide to bring. Clan Scryre can also make a good use of the shooting phase.

the main benefit of shooting for any faction is to cannon snipe monsters and characters. any faction with any cannon is good enough.

None of this helps High Elves. sea Guard now have a price reduction and special rules making it now for the first time wiorthwhile taking them. Before they simply cost too much. If you take them boost them to twenty so you can make good on ranked up infantry, while still retaining the shooting defence.

Ellyrian Rweavers are excellent, but their shooting wont do a lot, ok for dealing with other chaff but risky due to increased cost. Aways take spears, the bows are stricvtly optional.

Bolt throwers can be nasty but seldom do enough damage to stop a unit, especailly in 8th with supersized infantry blocks. Not a bad toolbox unit, but you can leave it home.

Sisters look nasty right up until you realise they are only dealing out S3 attacks with gimics and cost way too much for what they do. Shadow Warriors were never worth it.

The only real gem in the High Elf shooting repertoire is the Reaver Bow. This bow is so awesome the Wood elves wished they had anything this good. Frankly it is in my opinion the best ranged magic item in Warhammer. essentially it is a BS6 heavy bolter, and now its even cheaper than it was in the past. Only give it to a hero, even though some champions can now take it due to the cost reduction. In fact the army book was engineered that way.

 Orlanth wrote:

Ellyrian Rweavers are excellent, but their shooting wont do a lot, ok for dealing with other chaff but risky due to increased cost. Aways take spears, the bows are stricvtly optional.

My 5 Reavers are mounted with bows and spears because they're from a starter box, so I don't have much choice in that matter :/

 Orlanth wrote:

Bolt throwers can be nasty but seldom do enough damage to stop a unit, especailly in 8th with supersized infantry blocks. Not a bad toolbox unit, but you can leave it home.

I thought about using two of them to support from afar with an offensive army, would I be better to drop them for something more mobile ?

 Orlanth wrote:

Sisters look nasty right up until you realise they are only dealing out S3 attacks with gimics and cost way too much for what they do. Shadow Warriors were never worth it.

Actually it's a 24" S4 bow, with a -1 to armor saves if the target belongs to the Destruction faction, and it has flaming attacks. I've read many people that praises them and at my shop they love them too, so I'm a bit surprised with your statement actually. I agree for the Shadow Warriors though.

 Orlanth wrote:

The only real gem in the High Elf shooting repertoire is the Reaver Bow. This bow is so awesome the Wood elves wished they had anything this good. Frankly it is in my opinion the best ranged magic item in Warhammer. essentially it is a BS6 heavy bolter, and now its even cheaper than it was in the past. Only give it to a hero, even though some champions can now take it due to the cost reduction. In fact the army book was engineered that way.

The way I see it in the codex it gives a +1S, so we stay at S5 with a Noble or Prince equipped with that. But yeah I can see the power behind 3 S5 arrows shot with a BS 6/7 at 30". It makes me want to have an archer hero now

Do you have any advice as for the mages ? Is it really unforgivable not to bring a mage, but a noble instead for a small points list ? If I use the mage, it will be as a buffer for my main force of Swordmasters. I really love Swordmasters.

High elves have a magic advantage, always take some. Yes the Reaver Bow hero is an auto include in my opinion. He could also be the BSB, its a good way to take a necessary hero and give him some offensive profile. If you give the bow to the BSB you only really need to pay back the 25pt investment with shooting, which will happen the first time he runs off a chaff unit the rest you are paying for anyway. You also get a nasty stand and shoot to add to your infantry block.

Your starter Reavers are like everyone elses, just suck it up, give thm a musician only and there you go.

Your bolt throwers can work, you can get to monster snipe which you cant otherwise do. Not as good as a cannon but fairly reliable at the job if you take two. they can also see off chaff with submiunition attacks and the range is useful. Like I said they are a multi-role toolbox unit, but they arent anything like as good as other factions artillery. Yes do take two or none at all.

Shooting in 8th is an uphill battle.

Especially if you are using an army with bows instead of gunpowder, unless it's wood elves.

You will always need combat units, always. Most of your army should be focused on combat. You should see shooting as more of a support element.

The key is to kill all of the chaff first, like dogs, fast cavalry etc. first with your low strength shooting. That way he can't march block/re-direct, or harass your units with his fast stuff.

Focus the strong shooting like bolt throwers on his most expensive/well armoured stuff like Daemon Princes, skull crushers or monsters. Kill them as quickly as possible.

I played a heavy shooting army in 8th edition for High Elves. It was tough for some games but I found it pretty rewarding not to just spam Frost Phoenix's and White Lions.

I used a 30 man deep unit of Sea Guard in Horde Formation. ( remember High Elves fight and shoot in 3 ranks) 15 man unit of archers, 2 units of 5 reavers and 4 bolt throwers, Phoenix Guard, Sword Masters, Dragon Princes.

The key to using shooting with high elves is magic. I personally used Teclis so that I could choose my spells like Harmonic Convergence and Flaming Sword of Rhuin. But an Archmage with the lore of shadow will do well also so you can slow them down and drop their toughness. You just have to decide what lore works best for what you need.

If you really want a heavy shooting elf army, my suggestion is wood elves. Even Dark Elves are better at shooting.

Your bolt throwers can work, you can get to monster snipe which you cant otherwise do. Not as good as a cannon but fairly reliable at the job if you take two. they can also see off chaff with submiunition attacks and the range is useful. Like I said they are a multi-role toolbox unit, but they arent anything like as good as other factions artillery. Yes do take two or none at all.

Agreed, I can't stress this point enough. Go big or go home with bolt throwers, I would even say minimum 3.

The way I see it in the codex it gives a +1S, so we stay at S5 with a Noble or Prince equipped with that. But yeah I can see the power behind 3 S5 arrows shot with a BS 6/7 at 30". It makes me want to have an archer hero now

A cool combo is the reaver bow + potion of strength, so you get strength 8 shots off once per game.

 Orlanth wrote:
High elves have a magic advantage, always take some. Yes the Reaver Bow hero is an auto include in my opinion. He could also be the BSB, its a good way to take a necessary hero and give him some offensive profile. If you give the bow to the BSB you only really need to pay back the 25pt investment with shooting, which will happen the first time he runs off a chaff unit the rest you are paying for anyway. You also get a nasty stand and shoot to add to your infantry block.

Now there's a thing I never quite grasped, what is the Great Banner ? Is it a random banner with no actual meaning that gives a bonus or is it like the World-Dragon Banner ? Because I thought you could put magic banners to any unit who could take magic banners, given they can pay the cost in points of course. Could you please enlighten me about that ?

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

You will always need combat units, always. Most of your army should be focused on combat. You should see shooting as more of a support element.

The key is to kill all of the chaff first, like dogs, fast cavalry etc. first with your low strength shooting. That way he can't march block/re-direct, or harass your units with his fast stuff.

Focus the strong shooting like bolt throwers on his most expensive/well armoured stuff like Daemon Princes, skull crushers or monsters. Kill them as quickly as possible.

I played a heavy shooting army in 8th edition for High Elves. It was tough for some games but I found it pretty rewarding not to just spam Frost Phoenix's and White Lions.

I used a 30 man deep unit of Sea Guard in Horde Formation. ( remember High Elves fight and shoot in 3 ranks) 15 man unit of archers, 2 units of 5 reavers and 4 bolt throwers, Phoenix Guard, Sword Masters, Dragon Princes.

Thing is I really don't like the Sea Guards, I was thinking to run my base with only cavalry, my special slots filled by infantry with Swordmasters and Phoenix Guards. Maybe some Chrace Chariot if I have the points.

Well I'll stick with my Mage as Hero for now then. Thanks for your answers by the way, really appreciate it

I play the older editions, and Seaguard are versatile enough to be very useful. I don't think you'll have trouble shuffling them, though.

An additional comment (coming from an old dwarf player) is that shooty armies really aren't much fun for your opponent. And keeping your opponent having fun is very important for WFB players these days.

I found combined-arms High Elves with a strong gunline element (bolt throwers, Maiden Guard, Sea Guard) effective in 8th. To the OP's original objection bows aren't useful in small quantities, ten bows aren't going to do a lot. It's when you can park forty models in front of something and unload that the use starts to become apparent. A large volume of attacks that don't give your opponent a chance to attack back during your turn also synergize quite well with a number of spell buffs/debuffs.


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 argonak wrote:
An additional comment (coming from an old dwarf player) is that shooty armies really aren't much fun for your opponent. And keeping your opponent having fun is very important for WFB players these days.

To this point shooty Dwarf armies are a bigger issue than they are for most armies; Dwarves in 8th were weirdly balanced to the point that every army I ever saw spent the whole game sitting in its deployment zone lobbing cannonballs out until the enemy hit charge range. The part about WHFB that caught and kept most players' interest was movement, and Dwarves were stuck with a book that didn't really let them play that game, which made them frustrating to play as/against. If you've got mobile/melee elements you won't have as much of an issue.

Thanks for your answers guys. I'll settle for lists based on speed and full melee, with supporting magic and, when I'll have lists big enough, nasty Nobles or Princes to kill stuff. I don't feel like putting 40 archers on the table to see them eaten by 10 wolves honestly :p

 Aaranis wrote:

Now there's a thing I never quite grasped, what is the Great Banner ? Is it a random banner with no actual meaning that gives a bonus or is it like the World-Dragon Banner ? Because I thought you could put magic banners to any unit who could take magic banners, given they can pay the cost in points of course. Could you please enlighten me about that ?

There is not 'great banner' though some banners are great. i think you are asking about the Battle Standard. This is a standard 25pt upgrade for any factions hero choice. It is strictly 0-1 per army. The BSB as it is known allows rerolls of break tests within 12", and is normally kept within the leadership bubble of the general. it is generally considered an auto-include in pretty much any army. if you make any list here and dont include a BSB the first piece of advice you will receive is tom take one. a BSB can take a magic standard, which is normally never done unless you feel you have to take one of the 55pt+ costing banners still around in some army books. Instead most people give a BSB a solid ward save, very good armour or both.

for High Elves the default loadout for a BSB is heavy/dragon armour and Shield of the Merwyrm. Its cheap and as your BSB will be in an infantry block he is only really vulnerable to melee combat. This gives you a cost effective 4+/4++, as mentioned I normally add the Reaver Bow to all that.

As for banners that are great. You cant get "better" than the Banner of the World Dragon. Its way too good though, totally broken in fact and not popular because its widely considered unfair.

Back in 6th the High Elves had the Battle Banner, which added D6 on top of being a BSB.

So does that mean you're going to hock the shooty models?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

To this point shooty Dwarf armies are a bigger issue than they are for most armies; Dwarves in 8th were weirdly balanced to the point that every army I ever saw spent the whole game sitting in its deployment zone lobbing cannonballs out until the enemy hit charge range. The part about WHFB that caught and kept most players' interest was movement, and Dwarves were stuck with a book that didn't really let them play that game, which made them frustrating to play as/against. If you've got mobile/melee elements you won't have as much of an issue.

8th helped Dwarfs be more mobile. For most other armies the random charge was a pain but for Dwarfs it was more movement then we had ever seen from the stunties. When 8th first came out I wasn't a big fan of the random charge, but the first time my Dwarfs made a 10 inch charge I was impressed. 8th actually allowed Dwarfs to play an all combat list. In prior editions you had to rely on things like organ guns and thunderers to soften up the opponent because they were going to charge you 99% of the time.

I always thought it was a mistake when GW got ride of Dogs of War and the special rule for Ogres because that was a good way to get some mobility into a Dwarf army. Though that is why I bacame a big Chaos Dwarf fan, they have just about everything dwarfs have and Bull Centaurs to boot.


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 Just Tony wrote:
Back in 6th the High Elves had the Battle Banner, which added D6 on top of being a BSB.

So does that mean you're going to hock the shooty models?

I have a good friend that is a dedicated HE player and man that banner was annoying. He had amazing rolls with it. "OK I won combat", "My banner rolled me an extra 5, I win". damn that hurt. Good times though

Since going back to playing 6th Ed. there isn't a single game I've ran my HE that I don't have that banner in my army. That's the first thing I write in my list after 3 spear regiments.

 Just Tony wrote:
Back in 6th the High Elves had the Battle Banner, which added D6 on top of being a BSB.

So does that mean you're going to hock the shooty models?

Well yeah I guess, at least for small lists. I'd still like to put my 5 Reavers in there but I'll see how they perform !

 Orlanth wrote:
There is not 'great banner' though some banners are great. i think you are asking about the Battle Standard. This is a standard 25pt upgrade for any factions hero choice. It is strictly 0-1 per army. The BSB as it is known allows rerolls of break tests within 12", and is normally kept within the leadership bubble of the general. it is generally considered an auto-include in pretty much any army. if you make any list here and dont include a BSB the first piece of advice you will receive is tom take one. a BSB can take a magic standard, which is normally never done unless you feel you have to take one of the 55pt+ costing banners still around in some army books. Instead most people give a BSB a solid ward save, very good armour or both.

for High Elves the default loadout for a BSB is heavy/dragon armour and Shield of the Merwyrm. Its cheap and as your BSB will be in an infantry block he is only really vulnerable to melee combat. This gives you a cost effective 4+/4++, as mentioned I normally add the Reaver Bow to all that.

As for banners that are great. You cant get "better" than the Banner of the World Dragon. Its way too good though, totally broken in fact and not popular because its widely considered unfair.

Oh thank you I think I would've never found out by myself reading the rulebook Okay I see, I'll have to find a model with a banner and convert it a bit I guess. I don't know what's available anymore on GW's site and it's impossible to find High Elves on their site without browsing everything because of AoS and their 200 army names.

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
Back in 6th the High Elves had the Battle Banner, which added D6 on top of being a BSB.

So does that mean you're going to hock the shooty models?

I have a good friend that is a dedicated HE player and man that banner was annoying. He had amazing rolls with it. "OK I won combat", "My banner rolled me an extra 5, I win". damn that hurt. Good times though

IIRC it cost about 80pts and could only be taken by the BSB and the best you could give him was a 5+ or 3+ on a steed because back then you couldn't have a shield with the BSB. So all in all he was a major target, and only rally viable in a cavalry unit.

I had him standing in a foot regiment and didn't have a problem. If there was only one character in the enemy unit I would challenge with my champion, which would buy time to get the banner effects. The only way they could kill him before it went off was to target him specifically, and even then there usually weren't enough attacks to kill him off on the charge.

That shouldnt work, always take champions of their own to counter. Also rank and file should have a fair chance to kill a W2 T3 character with a 5+ save.

Assume WS3-4 hits on 4+, S3 wound on 4+, doable even with basic infantry, and if its nasty stuff that would normally beat High Elves, like Chaos Warriors I would be very concerned for the BSB lasting the round.

So 3 max in base on the charge, half hit and half wound. We're even discounting the ridiculously high WS of the HE BSB. It's doable if you assume everyone rolls the exact amount needed for the example. Kind of like the whole 5 man cav unit that kills everything on the charge. The math doesn't support it.

He survived in combat with Saurus Warriors AND against Temple Guard, so I've seen it firsthand.

 Orlanth wrote:

IIRC it cost about 80pts and could only be taken by the BSB and the best you could give him was a 5+ or 3+ on a steed because back then you couldn't have a shield with the BSB. So all in all he was a major target, and only rally viable in a cavalry unit.

My buddy usually put his BSB in a big unit of Silverhelms or Swordmasters. Back in 6th I only played Empire or Dwarfs, so most of the time I was getting charged. Either of those units could hold up against 6th ed Empire knights and both are definitely getting the charge off on Dwarfs.

 Just Tony wrote:
Since going back to playing 6th Ed. there isn't a single game I've ran my HE that I don't have that banner in my army. That's the first thing I write in my list after 3 spear regiments.

Good stuff. Empire had "unrealiable" handguns, back in 6th, which actually added D6 range, the first round they were fired.