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I noticed somebody asking why there wasn't very much activity on the KOW part of the Dakka forum, and if there was a way to generate more posts.
Well I came here looking for a general feel of where KOW currently is with it's system. Are the rules balanced, do they create for fun games, are Mantics models any good or should we stick with some of the other ranges. How does it rate alongside Warhammer/AoS. Is it played by your community, is the fluff any good?
Hopefully we can get some feedback from those who currently play/ or have played it and their opinions on its good and bad points.

Yes the game is rather balanced.

Of course, perfect balance does not exists for this kind of game due to the options and races available, but as far as Fantasy mass battle wargames go, KoW is among the most balanced that I ever saw, more than Warhammer ever (yes, including the ravening hordes booklet at the start of 6th edition).

The game and armies were beta tested in public, with Mantic forming a team that became the Rule Comitee (RC) that did a great job managing the public and private betas.

Sure, there are always a few quirks, but the RC is still active and we got some FAQs and Erratas, plus a "tournament pack" of semi official suggestions for a better tournament experience (and those variant are also used in lots of casual games).

See the Clash of Kings PDF to see the more recent version of those tweaks that help fix some of the few problems in the game.

Is the game fun ? It is for me and everyone that I know who play the game, and it play smoothly.
Some players prefer the more complex style of Warhammer and 9th age might be better for them, but for me KoW is the Warhammer that I had always wanted without knowing it.

Also the fact that you buy units and not individual models and that you don't remove models but whole units means that you can do very nice multibases for your units, sort of mini dioramas, and you are not forced to use the exact number of models, even Mantic own CEO for exemple has been shown to only use 17~18 dwarves for his Ironclad regiment (default number is 20), simply because he multibased them on the appropriate unit footprint and by giving them a more organic look of a group of soldiers there wasn't enough place for more than that, and it looks good.

Model wise, Mantic still has a lot of work to do, but they are improving.

Their first generation of plastic, released a long time ago (elves, undeads, dwarves and orcs some times later) where tooled by Renedra, a well known UK company, so technically the plastic was as good as GW sprues, but the design was very marmite, in that you might love it or hate it, or sometimes like it but find that it didn't fit with your existing GW models (the elves and orcs are both thinner than GW equivalents).

Among those first generation, the undead are still considered among their best works, especially the ghouls and zombies.

After came the first KoW kickstarter (it was still back during 1st edition) and Renedra was not able to manage the delay and quantity of the KS (at least that's what I read), so Mantic turned to a chinese manufacturer for their new plastic goblins and men at arms.

Let's just say that this time it was not the design but the quality of the hard plastic that was a problem, the men at arms are even slightly the wrong scale, there was a story of the chinese not having the correct CAD software version to read the files Mantic send them and rather than asking for a different format they simply told some interns to fix them manually or something like that.
Let's just note that Mantic has recently anounced that new Men at arms are planned to replace the current ones.

Since that however, and with the experience of their Scifi kickshtarters for Deadzone, they finally found a decent chinese manufacturer (and a better contract protecting them against similar failures), and the more recent plastics are rather goods, see the naïads or salamanders from the forces of Nature, or the lower abyssals and succubis.

Another problem has been for their restic material that they used in place of metal for some models. Myself I rather liked it, or at least I prefer working with it than metal, but it's true that on some models it sometimes came with bad mould line that can be a pain to clean.

While I think that they should have continued using this material at least for bigger models (like ogres) where it still give good results, Mantic has stopped using this restic for new releases for a while (but many older kits still use it for now)

The future is bright however, as they experimented with different new materials, one of them used for the Walking Dead game and some Deadzone 2 models with a great result, and the other being Prodos Unicast material. For now there are no model yet released for KoW with those new materials (except for a promotional Varangur model in Unicast released in germany only I think as a test), but hopefully we should starts seeing them soon.

Finally for the fluff, well, it's not extremely original due to using the tropes of Fantasy with humans, dwarves, elves, and so on, but they have a nice origin story for the world with a classic but decent theme :

- god-like beings live with mortals during a golden age, some mortal encouraged by one of the godlike beings do something stupid for love, resulting in a catastrophic even killing many of the celestians (the name of the god like creatures) and splitting the survivors into their "good" and "bad" aspects (Myself I would describe it more as them having split between their selfless or selfish emotions, not exactly the same, but this is mythology for the setting)
- war starts between the "Shining ones" and the "Wicked ones" and their mortal servants, ending with the remaining Wicked ones emprisonned into a hole in reality created during the final fight (the Abyss)
- later, a surviving or escaped Wicked one called simply "Winter" create a Glacial age and a new war starts. By then there are still Shining ones alive, but they seems to lack focus and don't help much
- after the victory against Winter, the ice thawn and create a tsunami that destroy most of what was left of the great mortal empires from the time of the gods, and creating a new sea in the middle of the continent.
- Now we are some times after that, Empires are starting to build again, and competing for ressources and land, and the Abyss sometimes release legions of demons upon the mortals.

Please note that this is just a short summary of the world mythology, each race has its own background and reasons for fighting the others, and there are some nice stories there.

One of my favorite is the fluff for the Herd (the beastmen neutral faction from the uncharted empire supplement), it's just a couple of page long, but it does a nice mix of legend and myth with the story of the shining ones and the wicked ones.

KoW is currently in rude health as far as I can tell. Things may be a little quiet over here on Dakka but there are several busy facebook groups and the Mantic forums themselves are quite busy (if you are lucky enough to be able to access them).

https://www.facebook.com/groups/403267653139331/

As far as the armies go there is a pretty good balance. There are some armies which are harder to win with (e.g. Orcs or Trident Realms) but tournaments seem to be won by a decent mix of armies. The top five places at the last event I went to were all taken by different armies.

In the UK we have the Clash of Kings coming up towards the end of the month and all 80 tickets have sold out. The tournament scene seems to be going from strength to strength - there seems to be an event more or less every weekend at the moment and often more than one. The tournament ranking page shows just under 180 players who have attended at least 1 KoW event in the UK in the past year.

http://uk-kow-rankings.appspot.com/region=3&game=5

Outside of the UK there also seems to be a lot of growth in events too.

Models wise it really comes down to beauty being in the eye of the beholder. I love Mantic's undead but I'm less keen on their dwarves. KoW fans aren't that hung up on which range you chose to take so go with what you like/what your wallet will allow.

Is "rude health" something that means good in the UK, or is that an autocorrect

And we're working on getting this section revamped, so stay tuned! I agree that the game is awesome, balanced and seeing a ton of play in some areas. I think it's important for folks to promote it (and Mantic as well) so it can continue to grow and reach a broader player base

 RiTides wrote:
Is "rude health" something that means good in the UK, or is that an autocorrect

And we're working on getting this section revamped, so stay tuned! I agree that the game is awesome, balanced and seeing a ton of play in some areas. I think it's important for folks to promote it (and Mantic as well) so it can continue to grow and reach a broader player base

Rude health is not a phrase used often these days, but it is a proper, if archaic, usage.

Rude betimes did connote 'outspoken' - to the point of being obnoxious - to be in rude health is not only to be in good health, but also look it. (Rugby players can be in rude health while being rude as well....)

There is a health food company named Rude Health, if I recall properly.

Words don't always mean what you think that they mean... homely used to mean 'attractive, in an at home sort of way', etc..

The Auld Grump, who is feeling a trifle archaic himself....

The short answer is that KoW is doing well, but is discussed on fora other than Dakkadakka. It is an incredibly well balanced wargame (by far the best I've seen). The Mantic model range is mediocre, but good value for money. The fluff needs some work but also allows for a lot of freedom.

The main selling points of KoW are that the game plays smoothly and quickly, it's balanced and you can't win in just the list building phase.

Thanks for the explanation, AuldGrump

It's doing surprisingly well in US.

I guess one question to ask is if it's riding the wave of the backlash from the AoS debacle. And if therefore it'll still be doing well once GW get's it's house in order (if it ever does)
I'm at a point now where I'm trying to decide which of the two to play, I suppose I could try a couple of games of each but my hobby time is limited so I'd rather go all out for one of them.

I think the backlash thing has passed for most people, really.

 toasteroven wrote:
I think the backlash thing has passed for most people, really.

Aye, for me there's little comparison between the two games, beyond that both of them took WHFB and simplified it in different directions, and that they both are very open to creative modeling (possibly KOW a little more than AOS). For me, what ultimately makes KOW more attractive - and I play both games with some regularity - is its impressive balance (internally as well as among factions) and the feeling of accomplishment I get after a match (win or lose, I feel like my little gaming time was well spent). Both of those aren't really things AOS can offer me right now. In the future once the game has matured? Mayhap. But right now, most of my matches of AOS make me feel like I should have been playing or working on KOW (or MFX) stuff instead, with all the swings and limited tactical options.

- Salvage

Let's remember that while Kings of War 2nd edition was released officially at more or less the same as AoS, the game had already existed for long enough tbefore that in its 1st edition, and the second edition was financed by a very successful kickstarter got to be beta tested by the public for months before the AoS release.

AoS and the death of Warhammer did make a lot of people look at other gameswhere they would not have done so before that, but KoW was already a decent success by itself before that, GW simply removed the shackles on their own customers.

And Uncharted Empires, allowing stranded WHFB players to continue with their armies, was a real shot in the arm, locally.

And then some people discovered that their WHFB armies were better in KoW. (Herd is better than Beastmen, Empire of Dust is better than Tomb Kings, and Brotherhood is at least as good as the Brettonians. Ratkin... are a real beast for me to fight, but I always had a problem against Skaven, too.)

The Auld Grump - I love some of the armies in Uncharted Empires - it has me wanting to field multiple armies, and considering allies just so I have an excuse to play them.

Yeah, Uncharted Empires let me bring my Lizardmen back all the way, so that was a pretty nice thing.

In our area, it is exploding with new players. The original wave was old WHFB players, but recently, it has been people who never did fantasy gaming before, which is really exciting. Initially, there was a lot of anger vs GW, but I think most of that has dissipated and people are playing it because it is just a great gaming system. The fact that you can go on facebook and get an authoritative rules ruling from a rules committee member almost instantaneously is super convenient. I don't know of any other game system that you can do that with.

I really like Uncharted Empires: it gives you a lot to work with and has rekindled my enthusiasm for the game. I want to try most of the armies (by proxy in most cases), and now I can use my WHFB Lizardmen again.

How do you guys feel about KoW: Historicals? Do the lists play well with KoW standard? Looking at the lists it feels a lot like Kingdoms of Men ++, but I kind of like the limit on crazy stuff and a focus on units. I really like the fact I can take a bloody general on a chariot!

But how well does it work? Am I going to hate life trying to play the historical + myth critters lists vs normal KoW?

In theory it should be fine, Kingdoms of Men have access to many different things, including wizards and monsters plus artefacts, and should be perfectly fine against historicals armies.
There are some concerns with hun or mongols armies with large number of big skirmishing cavalry units, but this is more a potential problem on the historical side with those two themes (and not a problem if historicals vs fantasy), and there are already some discussions about it with the RC so I don't worry too much about it.

I think Historical is very interesting because it gives a good indication on where KoW is likely going rulewise (which I think is a positive direction). I am kind of disappointed with the army lists since they are really obviously not historically accurate whatsoever. I haven't played them vs fantasy armies, so I can't speak to that.

Could not say as I do not have a copy yet. It is something that interests me and I will purchase it at some point, but I just bought an Abyssal Dwarf army and supposedly three kickstarters that I backed a year or more ago claim they will be shipping soon. One of them is Dropfleet Commander and as a miniatures game will involve yet more prep time. (My Abyssal Dwarves are nearly done, although the Supreme Iron Caster on Giant halfbreed will take pinning. They probably should have gone with a plastic head and saddle like the body and wings.)

However, as I have played KoM in KoW, I'd assume a historical army with some mythological support should be able to hold its own.

 Wehrkind wrote:
How do you guys feel about KoW: Historicals? Do the lists play well with KoW standard? Looking at the lists it feels a lot like Kingdoms of Men ++, but I kind of like the limit on crazy stuff and a focus on units. I really like the fact I can take a bloody general on a chariot!

But how well does it work? Am I going to hate life trying to play the historical + myth critters lists vs normal KoW?

Glad this thread is here, I didn't even realize the historical book was out!

Out, and kinda awesome.

The Auld Grump

Yea, I really like the looks of the historicals book based on what I have seen online (mostly army builders). I am just prone to falling into the fluffy pit of hell when it comes to choosing armies, and since my hobby time is pretty critically limited lately and for the foreseeable future, I am hoping to avoid it this time. I don't know that I can stomach another army that hates me more than the enemy :(

 Huron black heart wrote:
I noticed somebody asking why there wasn't very much activity on the KOW part of the Dakka forum, and if there was a way to generate more posts.
Well I came here looking for a general feel of where KOW currently is with it's system. Are the rules balanced, do they create for fun games, are Mantics models any good or should we stick with some of the other ranges. How does it rate alongside Warhammer/AoS. Is it played by your community, is the fluff any good?
Hopefully we can get some feedback from those who currently play/ or have played it and their opinions on its good and bad points.

It's very balanced. I've never lost a game I couldn't win, and I've never won a game that I couldn't have lost.

Mantic's models are good for their price. I have a Basilea army by them (no men at arms though) and I like the models. You can use any models you want really, so if you don't like Mantic's, then shop around for others. I started Basilea because after playing KoW, I felt compelled to give Mantic money.

KoW makes WHFB's rules seem outdated imo. While 9th age is a noble effort, I think it's doomed. I tried really hard in 7th and 8th to get new players into Warhammer, but the costs and complicated rules were big barriers. 9th age has die hard fans, but I don't see them picking up many new ones. KoW's rules are clear and clean. It's refreshing.

AoS is different to me. I've recently started playing it again. I like it's simple core mechanics and it plays like a fun skirmish game. I like it's basic ruleset and it's the easiest to get new players involved. The balance is questionable (classic GW), but it's a fun game that's quick to pick up.

AoS seems like it's on the rise in my immediate area. There are scattered KoW groups, but most seem to play in basements so it's hard to link up. KoW tournaments on the east coast of the US have been steadily getting bigger and more frequent.

I think part of the reason the KoW section on Dakka is quiet is because it's a balanced game with clear rules. There's not a whole lot to argue about. The official forums and facebook pages are active and I think most people get their questions answered there.

The background is pretty good, nothing amazing. Lots of room to grow though.

 Red Viper wrote:
It's very balanced. I've never lost a game I couldn't win, and I've never won a game that I couldn't have lost.

I can usually point at the moves that lost me a game. Moves, not dice rolls, good decisions by my opponent and/or bad decision by me.

...after playing KoW, I felt compelled to give Mantic money.

Same here, it's that good.

I think part of the reason the KoW section on Dakka is quiet is because it's a balanced game with clear rules. There's not a whole lot to argue about. The official forums and facebook pages are active and I think most people get their questions answered there.

This, but it also seems to be the case that people who want to discuss KoW go to Mantic's forum.

Well I'm in the situation of owning several large Warhammer (or fantasy era) armies which I'm wanting to use. Not sure I like the direction GW have gone in with AoS so I'll start to focus on KoW. And as a company I'd prefer to give my money to Mantic. I just hope all those ex GW employees now working there don't slowly implement the GW pricing/rules policies

 Red Viper wrote:

It's very balanced. I've never lost a game I couldn't win, and I've never won a game that I couldn't have lost.
...
I think part of the reason the KoW section on Dakka is quiet is because it's a balanced game with clear rules. There's not a whole lot to argue about. The official forums and facebook pages are active and I think most people get their questions answered there.
...
.

Two points on this: There have been some issues of imbalance on the Mantic forums that have been addressed a bit.
The main one is flying monsters and units, and how they get into rear arcs so handily. There have been strategy suggestions to fix this, but also it has been strongly suggested that tournaments use the rule that disordered fliers can't fly.
Similarly, the changes to allies to avoid some of the bad combos seem to be becoming canon.
People are still trying to figure out what armies are good and bad from what I have gathered, although certain choices seem to keep coming up as one or the other. Much better than GW ever was certainly, but I expect that in another year people will be agitating for official changes to certain armies to help them out.
(I know I would put in a vote for Kingdoms of Men to have a bloody chariot for generals!)

I agree that the game really does have clear rules, but the charging rules are super wonky. The debates over on the Mantic forums are... well difficult to follow in a few different ways. 90% of the time the charge rules work, and 10% of the time they make so little sense that agreement is impossible. I think there would be a lot of good done if Mantic spent time working though those 10% and getting more consistent rules.

My main suggestion would be that if you can contact a facing of an enemy unit by moving 2x your move speed, and that enemy is the closest enemy along your path of movement, you can charge them even if you can't put yourself on the side their facing requires, and you just don't get facing bonuses. In other words, the defender positioning a unit next to a house such that the charge is barely in their flank but can't fit there, while easily contacting their front or rear, doesn't make the defending unit un-chargeable.
Alternately, say you can always charge the closest unit in your line of sight, but if you can't hit the right frontage you count as hindered.

It is a corner case (literally) but man, when it comes up it is super frustrating because it is just so silly.

 DarkBlack wrote:

 Red Viper wrote:
It's very balanced. I've never lost a game I couldn't win, and I've never won a game that I couldn't have lost.

I can usually point at the moves that lost me a game. Moves, not dice rolls, good decisions by my opponent and/or bad decision by me.

...after playing KoW, I felt compelled to give Mantic money.

Same here, it's that good.

I think part of the reason the KoW section on Dakka is quiet is because it's a balanced game with clear rules. There's not a whole lot to argue about. The official forums and facebook pages are active and I think most people get their questions answered there.

This, but it also seems to be the case that people who want to discuss KoW go to Mantic's forum.

Hell, most times it isn't even a move that loses me a game - it is in deployment. (Sometimes because I put a key unit in a bad position, and sometimes because my opponent catches on to what I am up to, and adjusts her deployment accordingly. It's what happens when you are married to your favorite opponent. )

Over the last few years, I can honestly say that I have given Mantic a hundred times more money than I have given GW.... (Last GW purchase - a bottle of liquid green stuff. Last Mantic purchase - an orc and goblin army....)

My one complaint is that the last time I trued to log into their forum... it wouldn't even show the page.

The Auld Grump

@The Auld Grump, about your problem accessing the forums, maybe you have some leftover from the time they upgraded the forums early 2016, there was conflict with older cookies and other stuff that prevented people from accessing the new forums.

Here's a post by Mantic at the time, maybe it will help in your case :

Mantic wrote:
We're aware that some of you are having trouble accessing the forum right now, as a result of the updates made to it. If clearing browser cache, history and cookies for the site hasn't worked, the HSTS setting for the domain need clearing. See here:
http://classically.me/blogs/how-clear-hsts-settings-major-browsers

The domain the clear/delete is manticforum.com

jtrowell wrote:
@The Auld Grump, about your problem accessing the forums, maybe you have some leftover from the time they upgraded the forums early 2016, there was conflict with older cookies and other stuff that prevented people from accessing the new forums.

Here's a post by Mantic at the time, maybe it will help in your case :

Mantic wrote:
We're aware that some of you are having trouble accessing the forum right now, as a result of the updates made to it. If clearing browser cache, history and cookies for the site hasn't worked, the HSTS setting for the domain need clearing. See here:
http://classically.me/blogs/how-clear-hsts-settings-major-browsers

The domain the clear/delete is manticforum.com

I had cleared the history and the HSTS settings a long time ago. - and it didn't work.

That said, I just logged in, and this time it worked fine.... (It was also many versions of Firefox ago, so that might have something to do with it as well....)

Good to know, not sure that I will ever trust it again, but good to know.

The Auld Grump