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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





I know I will need to get a Basilisk. With Eliminators being common, Basilisks are almost mandatory.

I'll need a 3rd Tank Commander too. However, I'm not sure if I would prefer a standard Russ or a second Demolisher. I almost want the second Demolisher for the firepower and some level of redundancy, but I already have a standard Leman Russ I can just add sponsons to. What do you guys think?

EDIT: also, any point in having Lascannon Teams at the moment? I guess you could run Cadian, but you would have to keep the squad very still. Not seeing much use overall IMHO.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/22 22:17:31


 
   
Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User



Sydney

Lascannon teams are useless. T3, 5+ and must be in LOS = dead very fast. At most they get 1 turn shooting, and on average you'll do ~1 wound to a T8 3+ model. All that for 78 points. Don't waist points on them. Lascannons are an IG trap.

Edit: there is one exception where I'd consider taking lascannon teams: bring in a Tallarn Stormlord via Ambush, filled with 3 lascannon HWS and 3 command squads armed with a Lascannons and Plasma Guns, supported by 2 Astropaths with Psychic Barrier and Nightshroud. On the turn you bring it in either 1) park it in cover and pop smoke to make the Stormlord -2 to hit with a '1+' save, or 2) bring it in 9" away from an enemy unit that is near an infantry squad which is within ~guaranteed charge distance, use a CP and your reserve of spiritual luck to get the Stormlord into combat, and then surround the enemy unit with the infantry squad, locking it into combat, and make sure you do not kill the enemy unit all game so your Stormlord and Lascannon teams are immune from shooting attacks all game but can themselves shoot all game. Competitiveness rating: low. Likelihood of fun: high.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/23 10:14:20


 
   
Made in nl
Dakka Veteran





Netherlands

I am currently building a Tempestus air-heavy list. Think of melta scions in Valkyries with vulture gunship and thunderbolt support. Add in some officers of the fleet (never seen any on the table before!) and Psykers to beef them up.

Now, my main concern is the 'boots on the ground' rule. I am not sure yet if three units of ratlings will suffice or if I should go for a tooled-up Ravenguard Eliminator detachment. They have more staying power and bring more options as well. But they are 2.5 times as expensive. What are your thoughts on this?

   
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






Iowa

 Singleton Mosby wrote:
I am currently building a Tempestus air-heavy list. Think of melta scions in Valkyries with vulture gunship and thunderbolt support. Add in some officers of the fleet (never seen any on the table before!) and Psykers to beef them up.

Now, my main concern is the 'boots on the ground' rule. I am not sure yet if three units of ratlings will suffice or if I should go for a tooled-up Ravenguard Eliminator detachment. They have more staying power and bring more options as well. But they are 2.5 times as expensive. What are your thoughts on this?

Don’t put your meltas in Valks. Put plasma and volley una in there. Use Taurox Primes for gunboats. Get them into a nice spot and sit them there.

If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed. 
   
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Norn Queen






Yeah since the nerf melta are useless out of Valks since they can't get the melta effect after a drop.

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Dakka Veteran





Netherlands

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yeah since the nerf melta are useless out of Valks since they can't get the melta effect after a drop.


I am not running any Tauroxes. So the meltas also go on the valks. D6 damage is nothing to be shrugged at. And with rerolls and +1 to hit they can be quite effective that way as well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/24 14:50:12


   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Singleton Mosby wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yeah since the nerf melta are useless out of Valks since they can't get the melta effect after a drop.


I am not running any Tauroxes. So the meltas also go on the valks. D6 damage is nothing to be shrugged at. And with rerolls and +1 to hit they can be quite effective that way as well.
Plasma Guns can do up to 4 Damage, which is superior to D6 Damage. With +1 to hit you can't even kill yourself with overheat so that's even MORE reason to run plasma.

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Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Iowa

 Singleton Mosby wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yeah since the nerf melta are useless out of Valks since they can't get the melta effect after a drop.


I am not running any Tauroxes. So the meltas also go on the valks. D6 damage is nothing to be shrugged at. And with rerolls and +1 to hit they can be quite effective that way as well.

Still more effective to air drop the meltas. Also run Taurox Primes.

If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed. 
   
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Dakka Veteran





Netherlands

 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Singleton Mosby wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yeah since the nerf melta are useless out of Valks since they can't get the melta effect after a drop.


I am not running any Tauroxes. So the meltas also go on the valks. D6 damage is nothing to be shrugged at. And with rerolls and +1 to hit they can be quite effective that way as well.
Plasma Guns can do up to 4 Damage, which is superior to D6 Damage. With +1 to hit you can't even kill yourself with overheat so that's even MORE reason to run plasma.


OK. Point taken. The plasmas also generate an extra shot on a 6+. Meltas don't.

Take plasma pistols on the serges or not? And what about the ratlings vs Eliminators?

   
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Iowa

 Singleton Mosby wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Singleton Mosby wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yeah since the nerf melta are useless out of Valks since they can't get the melta effect after a drop.


I am not running any Tauroxes. So the meltas also go on the valks. D6 damage is nothing to be shrugged at. And with rerolls and +1 to hit they can be quite effective that way as well.
Plasma Guns can do up to 4 Damage, which is superior to D6 Damage. With +1 to hit you can't even kill yourself with overheat so that's even MORE reason to run plasma.


OK. Point taken. The plasmas also generate an extra shot on a 6+. Meltas don't.

Take plasma pistols on the serges or not? And what about the ratlings vs Eliminators?

If you’re using Scion squads and not command and you want all the damage, yeah.

If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed. 
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




Even better, getting that +1 to hit means you're getting extra shots on 5+, making it even more deadly. Those squads put out HURT.
   
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[DCM]
Heroic Senior Officer





Murray, Kentucky

 Singleton Mosby wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Singleton Mosby wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yeah since the nerf melta are useless out of Valks since they can't get the melta effect after a drop.


I am not running any Tauroxes. So the meltas also go on the valks. D6 damage is nothing to be shrugged at. And with rerolls and +1 to hit they can be quite effective that way as well.
Plasma Guns can do up to 4 Damage, which is superior to D6 Damage. With +1 to hit you can't even kill yourself with overheat so that's even MORE reason to run plasma.


OK. Point taken. The plasmas also generate an extra shot on a 6+. Meltas don't.

Take plasma pistols on the serges or not? And what about the ratlings vs Eliminators?

If not plasma at least use bolt pistols. Hotshot pistols are almost universally useless since they can never be used on the initial drop. All my Sarge's have plasma pistols for that reason.

And yes, plasma all the way for Stormtroopers either way. Be it out of a valk or deepstrike, there's really no reason to run melta over plasma. Plasma is more consistent, more range, can generate extra shots, and is cheaper. It's really embarrassing that melta weapons STILL cost more than plasma despite the math regularly proving otherwise. Until the prices flip flop, there really is 0 reason for the melta to cost more.

The only other special weapon worth considering for Stormtroopers is the volleygun, but it's very niche and can easily be replaced by a vulture or something. I mainly run them to fill out squads since the Stormtroopers box only comes with 1 plasma per 5 men and it's an awful pose at that. I run meltas as well, but purely for casual games and the freak chance that GW learns how to do basic logic and fix the prices of plasma vs melta.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

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Dakka Veteran





Netherlands

I am using Victoria miniatures models. So weapon loadouts is not a problem. Have to decide beforehand though since the models are quite expensive.

   
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Norn Queen






Just as 7th was the edition of Gravspam, 8th is the edition of Plasmaspam

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Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Regular Dakkanaut





Still trying to decide what I want to have as my 3rd Tank Commander, regular Russ or Demolisher. Should I go for range and saved $ (converting an existing Russ) with a regular Russ Commander, or should I go for damage potential and redundancy with a second Demolisher Commander?
   
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Norn Queen






Arcanis161 wrote:
Still trying to decide what I want to have as my 3rd Tank Commander, regular Russ or Demolisher. Should I go for range and saved $ (converting an existing Russ) with a regular Russ Commander, or should I go for damage potential and redundancy with a second Demolisher Commander?
Needs more information. Unless it's Tallarn you want the normal cannon.

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Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 BaconCatBug wrote:
Arcanis161 wrote:
Still trying to decide what I want to have as my 3rd Tank Commander, regular Russ or Demolisher. Should I go for range and saved $ (converting an existing Russ) with a regular Russ Commander, or should I go for damage potential and redundancy with a second Demolisher Commander?
Needs more information. Unless it's Tallarn you want the normal cannon.


I was going more for Catachan for the reroll number of shots order. I mean, I have enough Guardsmen to go either/or (old metal Cadian can count as Tallarn, right?). Doing mostly Battalion detachments, and do intend to take the Vigilus tank detachment (and some form of the Artillery detachment once I get/make room for a Basilisk).

Overall build is just tanks, Artillery piece, and blobs of infantry (lots of Infantry, like 9 minimum) with characters. Fairly simplistic. May throw in Crusaders for close combat blocking (not opposed to Ogryns/Bullgryns, but dislike the aesthetics and, again, storage space is an issue with 2 40k armies, 1 30k army, and a growing AoS army).
   
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Norn Queen






Catachan wants the Battle Cannon then, IMHO.

Add me on Discord: BaconCatBug#0294 +++++List of "broken" RaW in Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
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Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Perfected Haemonculi Living Sculpture






I do well with the executioner on my Catachan TC's but the battle canon relic is especially good.

   
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Regular Dakkanaut





So, what are people's thoughts on the points changes from CA?

I feel we got a mixed bag. We now have a cheaper Command Points battery with the price reduction for Scions and Tempestor Primes (2 Tempestor Primes, 3 Scion squads for a total price of 175 points). Not as durable as the Loyal 32, but for five fewer points, they can drop on a far away objective and try to hold it.

I feel with the increase to the Mortar teams, we now have a final nail in the coffin for cheap Brigades, though I personally feel that's already been on the way out as Mortars don't do a lot versus MEQs on average. Sentinels (cheapest Fast Attack slot) are only good for a momentary distraction, and the next cheapest Heavy Support slot are Heavy Bolter toting HW squads, which need LoS and thus will die almost instantly. That's 231 points easily dead turn 1 for 7 command points more that a battalion. Not sure that's worth it.

Never took Ogryns, so not sure how I feel about their point increase, same goes for Wyvern.

Russ tanks took a point cut, but by how much I don't know as of yet. Not sure if it's enough to justify them over/alongside the Tank Commanders.

Lascannons went down 5 points, so that shaves some points here and there. Don't think it makes them worth taking either in HWS or buried in a Cadian Gunline.

What is everyone else's thoughts?

   
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Pewling Menial





I’m happy with the changes overall. I wasn’t running Ogryns or Wyverns but I was running two mortar squads and a punisher tank commander. I swapped the punisher for a demolisher (magnetized turret weapons). The drops to astropaths (running three), lascannons, missile launchers, and leman russes (two in my list in addition to three TC’s) more than made up for the mortar points increase. I’m even thinking of picking up a baneblade variant now for higher point games.
   
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Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





I always liked missile launchers just out of personal preference and therefore I'm quite happy that they dropped. I think they might now be an interesting alternative for Tallarn or Cadian Sentinels as they are the second cheapest weapons option and seem useful enough against light vehicles.

Also a potentially interesting take if you want to put HW in your squads. Don't get me wrong, they are still not Metabreaking great, but it seems to me they are an OK option now.

~1300 build and painted 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut





The punisher matters less but the mortars and wyvern is an annoyance as outside of marines, they do the emperors work against many other armies. I still think you need them so have to find points elsewhere.

I feel as these changes were relevant 6 months ago but hurts us now as they are all less effective in the marine meta and are more expensive..

   
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Mysterious Techpriest






Fortress world of Ostrakan

I too started thinking about adding Missile Launchers to regular Infantry Squads, since they dropped to 10p(?) from 15p.. So far I left my Vostroyan Infantry squads bare, just with a single Plasma Gun, and had heavy weapons only in HWSs


Neutran Panzergrenadiers, Ostrakan Skitarii Legions, Order of the Silver Hand
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Macon, GA

The increase to mortars is fair, as it's still quite efficient in a HWS, but this should have been bumped up a year ago, not now. 45pts is still real cheap for what you get. I think we'll stop seeing them splashed into infantry squads though.

The Ogryn price hike is mystifying. I'd bet it was a typo, because even with the big cut, I still never saw anybody actually play Ogryn.

Scions getting a drop (really the second drop, with hotshots going down last year) keep them around as an interesting aspect to our army. They still come in turn 2, usually bottom of two, making them more of a beta strike.

Cheaper lascannons and Missiles are long overdue. MLs splashed onto infantry squads sounds vaguely interesting. Lascannon veteran squads now run 65pts. Squad based heavy weapons are now the garnish on the IG plate, not the meat, but at least GW is helping to keep them alive. Alternatively, missile launcher armored sentinels at 40pts give brigades a durable, cheap option that will do at least some work against any target.


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New Hampshire

With the points change, what are people thoughts on the griffon vs wyrven. I've seen some talk about how the wyvren is not effective enough vs MEQ.

Griffion (85pts w/ HB) heavy D6 (roll 2 pick highest) S6 AP-1 D-D3 vs Wyvren (113 w/ HB) 4D6 S4 AP0 D1 reroll wound. Does the better S, AP, and possible better D of the griffon more efficient now?

Mainly asking as I HATE the wyvren model, have been using my griffons as wyvren already anyway.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/12/02 16:28:49


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Macon, GA

 Salted Diamond wrote:
With the points change, what are people thoughts on the griffon vs wyrven. I've seen some talk about how the wyvren is not effective enough vs MEQ.

Griffion (85pts w/ HB) heavy D6 (roll 2 pick highest) S6 AP-1 D-D3 vs Wyvren (113 w/ HB) 4D6 S4 AP0 D1 reroll wound. Does the better S, AP, and possible better D of the griffon more efficient now?

Mainly asking as I HATE the wyvren model, have been using my griffons as wyvren already anyway.


Why not just take a basilisk though? It's a 23pt upgrade to the griffon to gain S9 and AP-3.

My Painted Armies
: Co. B, 37th Praetorian IG: 21,000pts
KOW Ogres: 4500 points
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Repentia Mistress






New Hampshire

 Polonius wrote:
 Salted Diamond wrote:
With the points change, what are people thoughts on the griffon vs wyrven. I've seen some talk about how the wyvren is not effective enough vs MEQ.

Griffion (85pts w/ HB) heavy D6 (roll 2 pick highest) S6 AP-1 D-D3 vs Wyvren (113 w/ HB) 4D6 S4 AP0 D1 reroll wound. Does the better S, AP, and possible better D of the griffon more efficient now?

Mainly asking as I HATE the wyvren model, have been using my griffons as wyvren already anyway.


Why not just take a basilisk though? It's a 23pt upgrade to the griffon to gain S9 and AP-3.

I field 2 basilisks, but also have 2 griffons I got when they were codex. Used them as wyvren as they used to be pretty good pre-primaris days

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/02 16:52:59


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Annandale, VA

Apologies if I've missed the discussion, but what's the thinking on Scions with the points drop? In my airborne list I'm considering running more bare Scions as objective-grabbers, now that a min squad is a mere 35pts.

Are we still stuck with plasma command squad spam as the only viable build, or can full-size squads be useful?
   
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Ragin' Ork Dreadnought





I think the problem with full size squads (as much as I want them to be viable), is that the bodies with the HSLG just don't do enough given how dinky their range is. You would have to give them FRFSRF to give them decent damage output, but that normally goes against the special weapons that you put on them in large squads, so it just ends up that the extra bodies (cheap as they are) are better off in a separate squad altogether. It also doesn't help that if they do kill enough, you'll probably lose a fair bit to morale.

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