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Some discussion over on the Lead Adventures forum about the Judge Dredd miniatures game, which apparently Mongoose and Warlord have now dropped. A shame, I never really got a chance to play it, but the rules seemed fun and although the minis were pretty hit and miss some of them were great:

http://www.lead-adventure.de/index.php?topic=94953.0
   
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Mighty Vampire Count






UK

It is a shame.

I went large into the kickstarter and was a play tester - enjoyed both and indeed we still play the game.

Love the models and managed to get pretty much all of them!

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Solahma






RVA

I bought a ton of them last year, sort of anticipating this day would come. I've gotten to the point where I try to avoid the inevitable ebay quest for overpriced out of print miniatures.

   
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Hopefully, like the way TT Combat took over Carnevale, maybe someone will take it on board and give it more of a push.
   
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Toledo, OH

Yet another licensed game that Mongoose released and then dropped.

It's a shame for the people that bought into it.
   
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I don't really know anything about Mongoose, but I'm getting the sense a lot of people really dislike them - what's the background here?
   
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Courageous Grand Master




-

Noooooooooooooooooooo!

Bloody good game, fun to play and some of the miniatures are pretty characterful, especially the fattie guys.

Although I have 2 gangs up and running (justice department and a street gang) I should buy some minis now before they become like gold dust.

Have Mongosse got a habit of dropping games?

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 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Have Mongosse got a habit of dropping games?


Ask the Starship Troopers players.

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Solahma






RVA

IME the general consensus is that Mongoose as a company has ambitions out of proportion with it capacities. The owner (and sole employee?), goes by Mongoose Matt on Dakka Dakka - maybe he will jump in? He has always seemed like a pretty decent chap to me so, even when Mongoose no longer supports a game I like, I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Notwithstanding the above, I think it's worth noting some things are beyond Matt's control; specifically, licensing costs in the case of Starship Troopers. I have no idea whether this played a part in 2000AD miniatures line/latest Judge Dredd miniatures game.

I'd also like to point out that this isn't exactly out of the blue. The line has been pretty much dead for a while now, at least to the point that I could realize the writing was on the wall and start picking up rulebooks and models way in advance of the End becoming official, as it were.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/27 16:25:48


   
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If I am not mistaken Rebellion, the owners of 2000AD, bought Mongoose a few years back so I wouldn't think licensing should have been a major issue for Judge Dredd. Although based on this news it would seem that my memory is playing tricks on me...

I would say though that well the miniatures are rather characterful, I was disinterested in the game because the models felt very much like they were a mid-90s GW sculpt. I wonder if this is in any way related to the 70% off sale that DriveThruRPG just had on products from the Judge Dredd RPG line?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/10/27 21:27:40


 
   
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Krazed Killa Kan





SoCal

They adhered a bit too closely to the source material, which is why it looked like 80s rejects. Nostalgia only gets you so far.

The rules also had glaring balance issues. The skill trees were also pretty linear overall.

Sad to see it go, it had a lot of promise.

   
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-

 Vertrucio wrote:
They adhered a bit too closely to the source material, which is why it looked like 80s rejects. Nostalgia only gets you so far.

The rules also had glaring balance issues. The skill trees were also pretty linear overall.

Sad to see it go, it had a lot of promise.


Yes, they weren't the greatest miniatures out there, but I liked them and I thought they did a decent job.

It's a damn shame, because not only is it a good game to play, but it's quick, and fantastic value for money.

£20 on average was enough to get your foot in the door, and I was using things like zombies from other companies when the situation warranted it.

£30 rulebook + £20 gang = bloody good value for money in book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Collinsas wrote:
If I am not mistaken Rebellion, the owners of 2000AD, bought Mongoose a few years back so I wouldn't think licensing should have been a major issue for Judge Dredd. Although based on this news it would seem that my memory is playing tricks on me...

I would say though that well the miniatures are rather characterful, I was disinterested in the game because the models felt very much like they were a mid-90s GW sculpt. I wonder if this is in any way related to the 70% off sale that DriveThruRPG just had on products from the Judge Dredd RPG line?


The speculators have struck - ebay prices have risen


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Manchu wrote:
IME the general consensus is that Mongoose as a company has ambitions out of proportion with it capacities. The owner (and sole employee?), goes by Mongoose Matt on Dakka Dakka - maybe he will jump in? He has always seemed like a pretty decent chap to me so, even when Mongoose no longer supports a game I like, I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Notwithstanding the above, I think it's worth noting some things are beyond Matt's control; specifically, licensing costs in the case of Starship Troopers. I have no idea whether this played a part in 2000AD miniatures line/latest Judge Dredd miniatures game.

I'd also like to point out that this isn't exactly out of the blue. The line has been pretty much dead for a while now, at least to the point that I could realize the writing was on the wall and start picking up rulebooks and models way in advance of the End becoming official, as it were.


Mongoose Matt? Last time I seen him on dakka, he was moonlighting for The Black Library or something

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/10/28 12:27:00


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I was all in on the KS. it is a few models from finished, but 5 years too late,

Want to really feel sorry for someone? Those that pledged for Rogue Trooper.

HOWEVER- Mongoose has always had issue with eyes too big for stomach, but I admit that the Judge Dredd game was one of their best efforts of the history of the company.

I wish my plate was not as full as it was right now, but its going to be great to snatch up all of those extras that will be flopping around for a song and dance.

I wish matt well. He is a Pain in the Ass sometimes, but he has done a mans piece of work on the Judge Dredd project, and I have had a heck of a wait, but he has delivered, albet a long haul, he has some very good pieces in both the figures, and the vehicles.

There was a time when I had a major hate-on for the company, especially after the Starship Troopers debacle, but in the time I've been involved in the project, he has become the little engine that could...

For an old dog like myself, the game is as close to the comic as you will ever get. Excellent game, smooth rules set, and I hope someone picks this one up, it has had too much hard work to it to die like a dog like this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/29 03:11:06




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 n815e wrote:
It's the curse I carry. If I collect anything, it's bound to have a short lifespan.


I always look at the figures as an investment into the period/genre. I have several of the old Foundry Judge Dredd figures nicely painted, and tons of figures for gangers and such. There are other rulesets they'll work with even if the Official Judge Dredd game is 'dead', and honestly those rules are still playable even if Mongoose/Warlord stop selling them.

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Solahma






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Spot on, CptJake. Some miniatures lines only "go with" a certain ruleset, at least in my mind - but those are few and far between. Judge Dredd minis would be good fodder for a homebrew skirmish game, honestly.

   
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I suspect the new Osprey rules "Rogue Star" would work for Judge Dredd skirmishing. Two Hour Wargames has rules that work for it too.

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I'm pretty excited about Rogue Star, now that I am getting into ASoBH.

   
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Real shame, game is a lot of fun and you would have thought should have picked up enough traction with Warlord to keep on selling it. The miniatures looked a little basic with the modern 'blow everything up to 2000 x 2000 zoom' resolution on a PC but at arms length, painting etc. I thought they were perfectly fine.

Is the issue that Mongoose are not releasing the game any more, or that Warlord are no longer distributing? (Not sure what the relationship was there)

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Mongoose Matt? Last time I seen him on dakka, he was moonlighting for The Black Library or something


From the posts on the forum I think he seemed more concerned with trying to get a job with GW...

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Is there anything that Mongoose makes that survives? They've put down so many interesting games and good figures and they just can't seem to make anything stick.

I've personally no interest in Judge Dredd -beyond thinking that some of the figures were quite cool- but when I see Mongoose on the byline, I take a step back.

This is another reason to like the producers like Osprey and Ganesha. Ganesha makes no pretensions about being much more than a rules maker. They make good rules, they support them, they update and expand them and once in a while they do a short run of figures. Song of Blades and Heroes has been with us for almost a decade!

Osprey, likewise makes fun rules that are intended to be used with figures you already have or get elsewhere. Northstar makes figs for those rules, but there's no compulsion to have to buy those figs and except in a few cases there's no built-in assumption that the game will be supported so you buy the rules and play them and if they become out of print in a few years it's no big deal because they only made rules and you'll still probably be able to buy it as a PDF and keep playing.

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 CptJake wrote:
 n815e wrote:
It's the curse I carry. If I collect anything, it's bound to have a short lifespan.


I always look at the figures as an investment into the period/genre. I have several of the old Foundry Judge Dredd figures nicely painted, and tons of figures for gangers and such. There are other rulesets they'll work with even if the Official Judge Dredd game is 'dead', and honestly those rules are still playable even if Mongoose/Warlord stop selling them.


I agree.
Although I have the rules, I was planning on using something else.

To me, the loss here is the line of miniatures. While I do have most of them, I was hoping the line would continue to be expanded.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Is there anything that Mongoose makes that survives? They've put down so many interesting games and good figures and they just can't seem to make anything stick.


It's not just that their licensed products come and go, it's how they go.

Matt will literally post that he has big plans for a product line and then the next day announce he isn't renewing the license, you have a short time to get what you want (if any of it is still in stock) and he has known about it for months but didn't want to tell anyone.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/01 20:15:23


 
   
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Nostalgia based licensing can get you an influx of cash, but it doesn't last.

To be fair, the Judge Dredd miniature game has been around with Mongoose for a while. There was a d6 based version a long, long time ago that was terrible and incredibly random. So they maintained it for a while.

However, nostalgia only lasts for so long and 80s looking miniatures appeal to a more and more limited market. You can still be plenty of crazy and still make miniatures with more modern looks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/01 23:38:04


   
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Solahma






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All fair points, Vertrucio. I hope if there are Judge Dredd figs in the future, someone will do them in the style of the 2012 movie.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now that I think about it, "Raid on Peach Trees" would make a superb starter box, especially for a Kickstarter.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/01 22:59:12


   
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I was introduced to Dredd by the 2012 movie.
That drew me to the comics in the last few years, so I am not driven by 30 year old nostalgia, but by a new fandom for a universe that is still being published.

Dredd's universe is weird and wacky, it is sometimes funny and sometimes serious, it is a futuristic fantasy setting. It does not intend to be hard sci-fi. Given more movies, the new Dredd was planned to continue to be more like the comics. The original movie script was a Judge Death story.

There's room for all sorts of miniature lines in this hobby. They don't have to be cookie cutter copies of whatever is popular at the time, they just have to be handled well. Mongoose is not known for managing its product lines well.
   
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-

 CptJake wrote:
 n815e wrote:
It's the curse I carry. If I collect anything, it's bound to have a short lifespan.


I always look at the figures as an investment into the period/genre. I have several of the old Foundry Judge Dredd figures nicely painted, and tons of figures for gangers and such. There are other rulesets they'll work with even if the Official Judge Dredd game is 'dead', and honestly those rules are still playable even if Mongoose/Warlord stop selling them.


As I type this, I've got the Judge Dredd rulebook to hand. It's well made, hardback, and could probably last a few decades. I still have plenty of wargames rulebooks from the 1980s, so I'll still get some miles from it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Manchu wrote:
Spot on, CptJake. Some miniatures lines only "go with" a certain ruleset, at least in my mind - but those are few and far between. Judge Dredd minis would be good fodder for a homebrew skirmish game, honestly.


As I've just said, the rulebook will probably last for decades, plus (and I've done this a few times with old minis) if the paint job starts to show its age, I just strip the paint, and use modern paints, and they look as good as new. I'll probably end up doing the same to my Judge Dredd Minis sometime in the future.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Pacific wrote:
Real shame, game is a lot of fun and you would have thought should have picked up enough traction with Warlord to keep on selling it. The miniatures looked a little basic with the modern 'blow everything up to 2000 x 2000 zoom' resolution on a PC but at arms length, painting etc. I thought they were perfectly fine.

Is the issue that Mongoose are not releasing the game any more, or that Warlord are no longer distributing? (Not sure what the relationship was there)

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Mongoose Matt? Last time I seen him on dakka, he was moonlighting for The Black Library or something


From the posts on the forum I think he seemed more concerned with trying to get a job with GW...


Worst part is that the ebay speculators have already 'updated' their prices on Judge Dredd stuff


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Eilif wrote:
Is there anything that Mongoose makes that survives? They've put down so many interesting games and good figures and they just can't seem to make anything stick.

I've personally no interest in Judge Dredd -beyond thinking that some of the figures were quite cool- but when I see Mongoose on the byline, I take a step back.

This is another reason to like the producers like Osprey and Ganesha. Ganesha makes no pretensions about being much more than a rules maker. They make good rules, they support them, they update and expand them and once in a while they do a short run of figures. Song of Blades and Heroes has been with us for almost a decade!

Osprey, likewise makes fun rules that are intended to be used with figures you already have or get elsewhere. Northstar makes figs for those rules, but there's no compulsion to have to buy those figs and except in a few cases there's no built-in assumption that the game will be supported so you buy the rules and play them and if they become out of print in a few years it's no big deal because they only made rules and you'll still probably be able to buy it as a PDF and keep playing.


I've never really been into Osprey rules, but I've heard good things, and I may pay them a visit very soon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grot 6 wrote:
I was all in on the KS. it is a few models from finished, but 5 years too late,

Want to really feel sorry for someone? Those that pledged for Rogue Trooper.

HOWEVER- Mongoose has always had issue with eyes too big for stomach, but I admit that the Judge Dredd game was one of their best efforts of the history of the company.

I wish my plate was not as full as it was right now, but its going to be great to snatch up all of those extras that will be flopping around for a song and dance.

I wish matt well. He is a Pain in the Ass sometimes, but he has done a mans piece of work on the Judge Dredd project, and I have had a heck of a wait, but he has delivered, albet a long haul, he has some very good pieces in both the figures, and the vehicles.

There was a time when I had a major hate-on for the company, especially after the Starship Troopers debacle, but in the time I've been involved in the project, he has become the little engine that could...

For an old dog like myself, the game is as close to the comic as you will ever get. Excellent game, smooth rules set, and I hope someone picks this one up, it has had too much hard work to it to die like a dog like this.


If I had the cash, I'd be in there to fly the flag...

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/11/02 15:55:08


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Solahma






RVA

 n815e wrote:
Mongoose is not known for managing its product lines well.
Not a fair assessment of the JD miniatures game, which included a rulebook, an expansion, and a comprehensive miniatures line, including vehicles, which was available for quite a few yaers.

In fact, I would say that line was a major achievment. If I had managed to get all that made, I'd feel pretty pleased about it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/02 17:48:43


   
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UK

 Manchu wrote:
 n815e wrote:
Mongoose is not known for managing its product lines well.
Not a fair assessment of the JD miniatures game, which included a rulebook, an expansion, and a comprehensive miniatures line, including vehicles, which was available for quite a few yaers.

In fact, I would say that line was a major achievment. If I had managed to get all that made, I'd feel pretty pleased about it.


Agreed - its sad that the Game never really got a audience - its looks great, is true to the source material and whilst it has balance issues - its not alone there!

I have most of it but not all sadly.

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Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

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 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
[
I've never really been into Osprey rules, but I've heard good things, and I may pay them a visit very soon.

I highly encourage everyone to do so if there's an Osprey ruleset covering a genre or era that you are interested in. Osprey has done a great job bringing forth a variety of authors (some with an established output) to write concise rulesets for a wide variety of wargames.

There have always been alot of affordable, independent wargames rules out there, but the Osprey magic seems to be having those kind of rules professionally edited, well laid out, and in a full-color printed package, usually with lots of photos and illustrations. I've got 8 or so of them and am really impressed so far.

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Off the top of my head:

Starship Troopers
Battlefield Evolution
Noble Armada: Bablyon 5
Noble Armada: A Call to Arms
Noble Armada: Star Fleet (though this might be with ADB now)
Now Judge Dredd all gone.

At least those are the ones I bought and have sat collecting dust (miniatures based). I think licensing took care of ST, Babylon, and now Dredd. Babylon and ST had pretty solid player bases, but its not like they're isolated cases.

I agree with Manchu that having that kind of track record is pretty good with a product line. I think the other sticking point, also as mentioned, is nostalgia only gets you so far. The bigger thing I notice is that there are a lot of people who were "just about to buy that" when they hear it went out of production. If more people actually bought product, rather than thought about it, then some of these lines might go a little longer. Of course, how long is long enough. No line is going to live forever.

I do wonder who has dropped/stopped supporting more lines, Mongoose or Spartan Games. LoL

With re: to Osprey, the only thing I find good about them is that they are cheap. Most of them are samey, and not particularly compelling. There are some that people really like: Lion Rampant, Ronin, En Garde (upgrade of Ronin). I've bought most but not felt compelled to play them more than a handful of times.

Of course, much like Necromunda, Mordheim, and other OOP games, there is nothing stopping anyone from playing Dredd with the actual miniatures or third party minis. That being said, I'd buy an update of Dredd to the new movie version, rather than the cartoony AD2000 version, but that's just my opinion. Maybe I need to up the price on that box of Mega City One Gangers I have on ebay

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/11/02 19:51:23


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