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So We have been playing AoS Path to Glory campaign at my FLGS. I am using a Tzeenchian Chaos force and found while perusing through the rules that a "Balewind Vortex" would greatly enhance my spell-casters. So after searching eBay (and now GW is re-releasing them even cheaper ARGH!) I found a couple.

But my opponents seem to dislike them and we had a bit of a disagreement about its rules.
this is what the warscroll says, "Roiling Vortex of Magic: Models cannot move within 3" of a Balewind Vortex while a Wizard is atop it. ".
So to me this means my Sorcerer can now not be charged since no model can move within 3" of it. Also it places your Spell-caster like 5 inches up on top of the platform. My oppenents disagree though.

Please share with me your thoughts or ideas about this.
Thanks

It's a big sticking point right now. Most people don't want to allow it because you're right - RAW, you just summon it and your Wizard is safe for the rest of the game against anything except shooting. And if he is on top of an objective, it's extremely hard to shift.

So yeah. If you use it, expect to get dirty looks unless you're going against Skaven/Free Peoples/Tzeentch with strong shooting.

From a rules perspective, you're right. The Balewind Vortex makes you 100% immune to being charged. I'd use them in a cutthroat tournament environment where anything goes, but never in a friendly game. It's not fun to play against. It's a great way to make sure nobody ever wants to play you again. You just need to decide how much you care about whether or not your opponent is having fun. If you don't care, go crazy. If you do, consider not using the Balewind Vortex or house ruling/nerfing the rules so that it's not a flat immunity.

Maybe add a random chance the charge will fail? When trying to charge, roll a D6. On a 1-2, the magical winds push you back and you have to pick a different target for your charge. Something like that maybe? You get the benefit, but there's a 1/3 chance the charge immunity won't work.

is it faq'd you can't charge?

doesn't say you can't. moving and charging are different things if you want to talk RAW.

I can't move within 3" anyways.

raoiley wrote:
is it faq'd you can't charge?

doesn't say you can't. moving and charging are different things if you want to talk RAW.

I can't move within 3" anyways.

Charge Phase...

"Any of your units within 12" of the enemy in your charge phase can make a charge move. Pick an eligible unit and roll two dice. Each model in the unit can move this number in inches. "

The rules actually use the word move. During a charge, models MOVE towards their enemy target. Can't move to within 3" of a Balewind Vortex, so it's effectively not a legal target.

I'm expecting (read: hoping) that most of the scenery will get points values in the future to help balance that out, because yeah. I see no reason not to take a Balewind Vortex for each wizard in my army if maintaining friendships isn't a concern.

 EnTyme wrote:
I'm expecting (read: hoping) that most of the scenery will get points values in the future to help balance that out, because yeah. I see no reason not to take a Balewind Vortex for each wizard in my army if maintaining friendships isn't a concern.

Same with Sylvaneth Wyldwoods. Very little reason why a Sylvaneth player wouldn't want to just blanket the table with those things.

Fwiw PPC charges 120 points per vortex available to summon, using that value in friendly games could let you use it without driving people off. For tournaments though... just spam em if you have em they're free.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Fwiw PPC charges 120 points per vortex available to summon, using that value in friendly games could let you use it without driving people off. For tournaments though... just spam em if you have em they're free.

I'd be ecstatic if GW just adopted the PPC points. The only thing they're missing is an official seal of approval. Every time I suggest it I'm met with "Yeah, that's just one group's opinion. My [insert generally understood to be grossly undercosted unit] is just fine as is. You just need to learn to be a better player."

Sigh.

Worth note that one person can use PPC and the other GHB and it still works fine since they are scaled the same (personally I don't think that is accidental on GW's part). A lot of my buds like the more simple GHB format so I am using my PPC lists against them all the time. More OT, I suspect people might be more receptive to at least adapting the terrain point costs since the GHB doesn't have any whatsoever.

Wasn't there a GW FB post that said you can't move within 3" but you COULD charge (long charge to the top + 3" distance)

And 120 points would be way to much. Even if used with something like the Reaping it would be hard to justify that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kriswall wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
I'm expecting (read: hoping) that most of the scenery will get points values in the future to help balance that out, because yeah. I see no reason not to take a Balewind Vortex for each wizard in my army if maintaining friendships isn't a concern.

Same with Sylvaneth Wyldwoods. Very little reason why a Sylvaneth player wouldn't want to just blanket the table with those things.

Disagreeing with you on this though.. I think extensive use of woods is calculated into Sylaneth points. without woods their points costs would be too high. Even maxing use of woods it's not a real OP army.

I suspect that Nicorex's opponents would have a different opinion in regards to the appropriateness of that cost on the vortex

Sylvaneth in regards to balance is more complicated than it can initially seem. Overall the army isn't bad at all (even relatively well balanced) but there are individual elements that are quite good as well as others that are sub-par. I'd say free wyldwoods is in the former category, and the issue arises because players can to avoid taking things from the latter category.

But even if taking only the best elements of sylvaneth including putting down wild woods (which are all abilities you 'pay' for already, either in tla points or by not picking other spells or items) you still only have a good army, not top tier. Yes it'll beat the heck out of some weak armies or anything else with sub optimal choices (but that should be taken into account - most armies have weaker choices and if playing for the win then yo you shouldn't take those) but you need some skills to use that optimally too.

Aezeal wrote:
But even if taking only the best elements of sylvaneth including putting down wild woods (which are all abilities you 'pay' for already, either in tla points or by not picking other spells or items) you still only have a good army, not top tier. Yes it'll beat the heck out of some weak armies or anything else with sub optimal choices (but that should be taken into account - most armies have weaker choices and if playing for the win then yo you shouldn't take those) but you need some skills to use that optimally too.

I would say this is pretty much on-point. Sylvaneth don't have really broken builds like some of the top-tier contenders, except perhaps for Kurnoth spam but that's theoretical since there isn't much presence of that specific build.

I've seen Kurnoth Hunter spam with multiple Wyldwoods. It's not even a little fun to play against. I think the main issue is that with all the "teleportation" between woods, ability to generate new woods and whatnot all happening in the Hero phase, IF the Sylvaneth player goes first, they can effectively gain ridiculous board control before their opponent has had a chance to do anything. If they go second, they may or may not be able to do so depending on what their opponent does. It's not fun to play against an army that can start the game with hard to kill models sitting on multiple objectives.

Kurnoths are durable (which is good especially in the healer rich sylvaneth army) but even going swords their damage output isn't that high. And there are no ways to buff it that much in faction.

Aezeal wrote:
Kurnoths are durable (which is good especially in the healer rich sylvaneth army) but even going swords their damage output isn't that high. And there are no ways to buff it that much in faction.

In a lot of objective based games you don't actually need to stay alive all game. You just need to stay alive long enough to make sure your opponent can't claim enough objective points to win. Being able to effectively deploy on the objectives with a difficult to shift unit from the first hero phase makes that easier. On turn 1, I'm running at you. On turn 2, I get to charge. On turn 3, we're probably still fighting. On turn 4 you're dead. Hopefully there is enough time left for me make holding that objective worthwhile. The Three Places of Power Battleplan makes this even tougher because you get more points per turn the longer you hold the objective. With the Kurnoth Hunters base size, it's not hard to hide a Branchwych in the middle and prevent it from being attacked in melee.

In other words, the Kurnoth Hunters don't need to do tons of melee damage or survive until the end of the game to do their jobs. They just need to teleport to objectives and then live for 2-3 rounds.

 Kriswall wrote:

raoiley wrote:
is it faq'd you can't charge?

doesn't say you can't. moving and charging are different things if you want to talk RAW.

I can't move within 3" anyways.

Charge Phase...

"Any of your units within 12" of the enemy in your charge phase can make a charge move. Pick an eligible unit and roll two dice. Each model in the unit can move this number in inches. "

The rules actually use the word move. During a charge, models MOVE towards their enemy target. Can't move to within 3" of a Balewind Vortex, so it's effectively not a legal target.

Clarified in the new Balewind Vortex warscroll with its rerelease:

Models cannot move within 3" of a Balewind Vortex while a Wizard is atop it, nor can they charge the Wizard.

Yeah. I'm REALLY thinking these things get points costs at some points. Doesn't have to be much, but based on the rules, I'd say 25-30 points for a Balewind would seem fair. Probably about the same for the Throne.

 EnTyme wrote:
Yeah. I'm REALLY thinking these things get points costs at some points. Doesn't have to be much, but based on the rules, I'd say 25-30 points for a Balewind would seem fair. Probably about the same for the Throne.

25-30 points to upgrade a Wizard to full melee immunity? Nope. Way too cheap. This is a 100% hard counter against melee units/armies.

 Kriswall wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
Yeah. I'm REALLY thinking these things get points costs at some points. Doesn't have to be much, but based on the rules, I'd say 25-30 points for a Balewind would seem fair. Probably about the same for the Throne.

25-30 points to upgrade a Wizard to full melee immunity? Nope. Way too cheap. This is a 100% hard counter against melee units/armies.

Still 100% vulnerable to shooting, magic, and other ranged abilities and the caster is immobilized. There is a tradeoff.

Doubles spell ranges, though. 36" on arcane bolt/mystic shield means they will be plenty effective camped on your table edge. Even a lot of artillery doesn't have range that long. That's not to mention the objective-denying capability of blocking off a section of battlefield. Even with the wizard dead the vortex itself is about a 10" circle that nothing can move into, just having a wizard be able to summon it for that purpose is worth ~50 points to me, other effects not included.

 EnTyme wrote:
Yeah. I'm REALLY thinking these things get points costs at some points. Doesn't have to be much, but based on the rules, I'd say 25-30 points for a Balewind would seem fair. Probably about the same for the Throne.

Throne can't be summoned so cannot be "in" an army right?

And I think the GW facebook suggested you CAN be charged.

Considering the updated warscroll explicitly states the wizard cannot be charged...

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Considering the updated warscroll explicitly states the wizard cannot be charged...

Ow updates again....

I'd just "found" this thing:

Q: Do pile-in moves and charge moves, or indeed any other sort of move that doesn’t happen in the movement phase, count as a ‘move’ for rules purposes? A: Yes – any rules that refer to a model making a move apply to any sort of move, including pile-in moves and charge moves. However, please note that the restrictions on moving within 3" of an enemy model and the opportunity for a unit to run only apply to moves that are made in the movement phase.

which would support possible charges... but if the warscroll has been updated that ends all discussion ofcourse. Too bad fliers weren't excluded. Guess you need shooting in your Khorne armies then .

PS the exclusion for monsters is new too right? (Alarielly is weeping, so are my TLA's). It does make it less unbalanced since most hero's that qualify will probably have 5 wounds.. which is not THAT hard to kill with shooting (most will have a low armor save too.. most) Probably means I should put Reaping on a wych (I use it on a TLA atm).

Well khorne does have some shooting,
skull cannons
khorgoraths
bloodthirsters ( wrath/fury)
maruder horse men have javlins and can be marked
karnak can cause mortal wounds with his unbind ability.

So its not a total bust for khorne.

Skullhammer wrote:
Well khorne does have some shooting,
skull cannons
khorgoraths
bloodthirsters ( wrath/fury)
maruder horse men have javlins and can be marked
karnak can cause mortal wounds with his unbind ability.

So its not a total bust for khorne.

True true.. I meant the blood bounds as a faction. (Khorgoraths won't kill the mage that quickly). (of course there is no reason not to take some of the other Khorne stuff.. GGW should've just made 5 chaos factions for each of the gods and the ratlings, and then the general stuff (warriors, beastmen) would just need to pick a god if played).

The no monsters, hero-only limitations are new and very good. The former is rather obvious and the latter makes sense when you consider the mechanics of pink horrors summoning a vortex.

I haven't seen anyone note that it's now got a Casting Value of 7 instead of 5.

 Ghaz wrote:
I haven't seen anyone note that it's now got a Casting Value of 7 instead of 5.

Ah, that does help things a bit.