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I feel like the new supplement is such a shift from normal CSM that I think it deserves a thread of it's own.
Nice combos between relics, thoughts on competitiveness, strong builds for your legion, you name it. Bring it on.

I thought I'd start by highlighting some interesting new twists for each legion.
The Black Legion can now do a null deployment while at the same times bringing the entire army in on turn one (by deepstrike no less) and can all but guarantee getting the dimensional key to trigger.

Alpha legion put the cypher dataslate formation to shame. They can infiltrate their entire army if they wanted to and it still stacks with Huron/ahriman since you can easily bring another detachment with either of those to infiltrate bigger things

Iron warriors are the bane of existance vs any fortification if you combine them with forgeworld lol, crank that siege gear up to 11. They're now themed around sitting in fortifications, I'm curious how that will affect list building.

Nightlords essentially get army wide shroud during the first turn now. So any daemon prince has a 2+ jink during that first turn, not just nurgle. Plus they get some reserve manipulation, so those raptor talons can come on a 2+.

Word bearers dark apostles all get a Crozius of the dark covenant for free, suck it crimson slaughter! Plus it works on a prince. Their decurion bonus is missing from the leak so I'm not sure how this changes things.

World eaters can have the longest charge range in the game by a country mile. A maelstrom juggerlord has a potential turn 1 charge range of 48 inch XD. Even outside of that and not in the formation he can threaten anything in a 30 inch radius. No need for the psychic lottery to get that elusive turn 1 charge here.

Thousand Sons play so differently from vanilla CSM that they might as well be a new faction lol. And they get new units!
Now to find out if scarab occult can replace termies in a terminator annihilation force.

Death guard probably got the strongest passive legion buffs of all. Relentless, fearless and fnp...jebus. And they can apply that to the purge detachment as well so you can have troop deathguard termies. They seem like the easiest to incorporate forgeworld units.

Emperors chidlren gain a whole new gameplay mechanic in combat drugs. Wonder if fabius will make a return here with upgraded basic marines on top of combat drugs. Their relics are really good. Shriekwave in a terminator annihilation force...mmmh. If bolts of vexation apply to the unit, that might be interesting in a rapier battery with quad bolters or even a basic marine blob. 40 blasts ought to do some damage.

Sooooo, World Eaters... Where to put the talisman? Big zerker blob? But then you have to field a lot of zerkers. In a warband list, maybe bikers or raptors? Could the talisman make terminators work?
So many options...

The obvious answer is in a single unit of a few Juggerlords.


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Also Obliterators got the biggest buff ever from Death Guard. FNP AND T5? That's pretty fething good for them as they can even just footslog and be okay from it

To be honest I used footslogging oblits most of the time due to no deep strike mitigation and because I wanted to fire their weapons from turn 1.

Poor plague marines, now everyone can do what they can do and they are left with plague knives and plage grenades for essentially 7 points

The word bearer detachment bonus is apparently crusader and a boon a turn. Nothing to write home about.


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I'm currently thinking of tweaking my normal list to have a WE juggerlord, with one unit of gorepack hounds, with the bonus movement relic.

Then as the WE troop, 20 marines.

Then.. a TS character(s) somehow, for the jump relic, and psychic support (preferably the cyclopea cabal, if that's possible, or an allied detachment, if that a possible, or maybe a TS coven..)
Add maulerfiends... See how that looks.


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I hope fabius gets some rules. He's the spiritual leader of my army , but hasn't hit the table in years.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
To be honest I used footslogging oblits most of the time due to no deep strike mitigation and because I wanted to fire their weapons from turn 1.

Poor plague marines, now everyone can do what they can do and they are left with plague knives and plage grenades for essentially 7 points

They can also carry 2 special weapons in a 5 man squad though...

 KhorneontheCobb wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
To be honest I used footslogging oblits most of the time due to no deep strike mitigation and because I wanted to fire their weapons from turn 1.

Poor plague marines, now everyone can do what they can do and they are left with plague knives and plage grenades for essentially 7 points

They can also carry 2 special weapons in a 5 man squad though...

Exactly. Theye spam special weapons better and that's more important.

Where do you see the Night Lords reserves manipulation?

I'm going through the list of relics right now.
Alpha legions Mindveil seems amazing. Not only does it add a ton of movement but you also can't be tarpitted anymore, like, at all. And you can add it to anything, since AL don't need to be marked.
Combined with the talsiman, any 12 inch unit can move a minimum of 18 inch, giving you a minimum of 23 inch to charge. Probably overkill though, since those two characters are stuck with default weapons. Might make mutilators more interesting though lol

I don't get the idea behind the warpsmith relic to possess your vehicles. You get to reduce their WS/BS...erm...ok? What few transports we bring these days are better off buying it if you're not taking extra armour. What's the appeal here?

The Claws of the black hunt might be interesting for a prince. The name implies that's a pair, so a khorne prince could get furious charge and +1 attack. S7 AP2 rending, shred and mastercrafted. And it would have a 2+ jink save during turn 1. Although tzeentch would be nice too for a 3+ rerollable jink all the time. Then again, at 10 points the scourging chain isn't bad on a Slaaneshi prince. It would still be S6 rending and shred

For word bearers a prince with maelfic tome seems almost mandatory. Should you combine it with kasyr lutien you are all but guaranteed to manifest. The baelful iron could make for a trolltastic but pointless unit. Combine that with the relic from Thsouand Sons to reduce charge distance and the opponent would have -4 to charge, would have to re-roll if he does make it and even then doesn't get bonus attacks lol

The World eater relics are kinda meh apart from the talisman. They can still take the axe of blind fury which is better than all of the weapons they get now. Gorefather is decent on a prince though if you want some anti tank, but I feel like raptors/bikes make better anti tank units in a WE detachment. Berzerkers glaive could be good on a otherwise naked juggerlord, or a prince.

Thousand Sons get some fun relics. The jump grimoire and seers bane are amazing. It's like tzeentch got jealous of the axe of blind fury. Just don't give it to a prince with their leadership 9 -_-. Could combine with night lords or emperors children with their - leadership penalties. You only need minus 2 to wound everything on a 2+.

Poxwalker Hive might be interesting with the Crimson Slaughter formation to ad 2-9 zombies each turn and you might even skip typhus since this seems to be aoe. You only need to hit them once to make them zombies.
The rest of their relics aren't all that intersting. Plaguebringer is cool and all, but it the black mace is still better. Although I suppose this is better for non prince characters.

I already mention shriek wave for a terminator annihilation, but good god. 2d6 S8 AP2 shots that might even re-roll to wound oO. And if you happen to be running two formations you could even add the brand to this.

Are we sure Mindveil is unit? I read it as the character.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Where do you see the Night Lords reserves manipulation?

Viox Daemonicus (30) enemy w/in 6” -1 Ldsh & -1 from reserve rolls


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Captyn_Bob wrote:
Are we sure Mindveil is unit? I read it as the character.

That'y why I said seems. As a unit buff it's crazy, as a character buff...eeeeh.

Frontline gaming has a different description up - its unit!

Artifact: The Mindveil: In the movement phase you can choose to move the bearer and his unit up to 3d6″ instead of moving normally…even if you’re locked in combat. Cool!

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Frontline gaming has a different description up - its unit!

Artifact: The Mindveil: In the movement phase you can choose to move the bearer and his unit up to 3d6″ instead of moving normally…even if you’re locked in combat. Cool!

Oh, can we have a link please ? That also means it doesn't stack with fast movement so that combo is dead.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/12/04/traitor-legions-preview-part-2-of-2/#comment-530789

Hmm, still going over it, but it appears the NL reserve thing is against enemy reserve rolls, not yours. Not that that is a bad thing though.

 Roknar wrote:

Thousand Sons get some fun relics. The jump grimoire and seers bane are amazing. It's like tzeentch got jealous of the axe of blind fury. Just don't give it to a prince with their leadership 9 -_-.

All a TS-Prince needs is the repelling sweep mace (forgot it's name.)
+2 Str, Concussive and -2" move to enemies charging you for a measly 10 points? Yes please!

stormcraft wrote:
Sooooo, World Eaters... Where to put the talisman? Big zerker blob? But then you have to field a lot of zerkers. In a warband list, maybe bikers or raptors? Could the talisman make terminators work?
So many options...

The talisman can make literally any unit work in a WE detachment, that is tosay : reach combat without getting molested. Well at least for one turn, after that it's still good though, just not quite as insane.

The slowest we have is 6 inch movement. The decurion adds 2d6 before the game.
Right now it looks like pregame move is a move, so would be affected by the talisman. So let's go with an average 6 inch for the 2d6 which is a reasonable expectation imho.
That's then 9 inch pregame plus another 9 inch in your first turn move. And since everything get's to re-roll charge ranges it should be possible to average an 8.
Which gives a charge distance of 11, which, added to the 18 inch you just moved, makes for a 29 inch radius viable charge on our slowest units. Of course, only in a WE detachment.

In a CAD you're looking at an 24-26 inch charge even on 12 inch movement. Mind you that's any turn, not just turn 1. Cutting a bit close for Turn 1 charges, but possible.
Ideally, you put it in a unit of 3ish maelstrom juggerlords, but that's not exactly viable.

I'm going to put it in a unit of 15 or so maelstrom zerkers because it gives me a reason to use my forgeworld zerkers.
They add an extra 3 inch the 29 making it a 32 average charge and if I can snag the warlord trait to charge in the enemy turn I might be able to put that free combat phase to good use.
Otherwise I'd say, put it in your deathstar, whatever that is or a unit of multicharging gorepack hounds or some auxilary spawn to eat overwatch.

With the rerolling charges and +1 cover during night fighting rules not applying to a CAD, I feel the NL rules are just bad and conflicting. I figure there are only two ways to run this:

1. CAD + Raptor Talon core, in which case the +1 cover first turn does nothing because your formation is deepstriking, and the guaranteed night fighting does nothing because all of your remaining guys on the board have stealth anyways.

2. Raptor Talon + Chaos Warband in which case you are not taking advantage of the Raptor Talon core choice. You would have to take a huge point sink with 3 HQ choices just to get a Daemon Prince, which I think utilizes the NL wargear and rules by far the best and gives you a hammer of a unit. You are also missing out on Raptor Troops and are forced to take CSM (as well as an Elite unit) that cost nearly 300 points and are slow in a legion built on speed. You also can't take only a single Heldrake which is yet another massive 340 point sink. There is also no way to fit in any tanks because of the restrictions.

Fear shouldve been something with a different name like Raptor Terror that works on all units in the game, and +1 cover save during night fighting should've been baseline. There are way too many required godawful formations including horrible HQ choice point sinks.

The way formations work is just silly. They just limit any creativity. It should always be a CAD, and if you bring X, Y and Z units from formation A inside of the CAD, those units get the formation rules. Instead youre forced to run these generic predetermined armies.

Why do you want a CAD? Because if it's to get a daemon prince you can take as many as you want in the command formation if this is following the black crusade detachment.

With as little as a raptor talon core and 1 spawn auxiliary. Tanks are available in the fist of the gods, though they come with a warpsmith tax.
Vindicators and preds still come in squadrons though, so it could be worse.
Or take a prince in the cad and some cultists to unlock vehicles. The cultists aren't a bad tax to pay and they don't have stealth because they don't have VotLW so they still benefit from nightfighting. That would also allow a single heldrake. Those never benefit from nightfighting anyway since they can't start the game on the board...well, unless you're playing black legion.

I am very interested in making an Emperor's Children army. In regards to the Kakophoni, is the +1S worth it to run 6 Noise Marine squads? It would allow them to in a pinch threaten vehicles with the blastmaster, and also improve their odds with pinning shenanigans, seeing as how that can help with that first round of combat. Split fire would allow one ten man squad to lock down 2 different infantry units. Any thoughts on MSU kakophoni vs. Less noise marine squads with more bodies and upgrades? Is it a good idea to try to combo the kakophoni with another formation to bring the combat while the noise marines bring the noise?

The +1S makes Blasters much better but you still have the issue of ever shooting them at max range. For a unit that likes to move and maybe even assault, theyve got equipment that encourages camping.

All I know is that this supplement will make Chaos Marine Squads playable. About damn time!

What I meant was creating an orchestra. The blastmaster would be the percussion pounding from the rear, and the rest of orchestra would bring I5 close combat weapons for 3 attacks on the charge, no overwatch or disordered charges to fear! Throw in a sorcerer or two as the composer, as the primaris alone is fairly synergetic and great at directing this coordinated piece.

 Roknar wrote:
Why do you want a CAD? Because if it's to get a daemon prince you can take as many as you want in the command formation if this is following the black crusade detachment.

With as little as a raptor talon core and 1 spawn auxiliary. Tanks are available in the fist of the gods, though they come with a warpsmith tax.
Vindicators and preds still come in squadrons though, so it could be worse.
Or take a prince in the cad and some cultists to unlock vehicles. The cultists aren't a bad tax to pay and they don't have stealth because they don't have VotLW so they still benefit from nightfighting. That would also allow a single heldrake. Those never benefit from nightfighting anyway since they can't start the game on the board...well, unless you're playing black legion.

I'm fairly certain it is only Deepstriking units that can come in T1, so no dragons.

Hmm, I was sure they had deepstrike. Guess they won't be arriving T1 then.

By god, my Emperors children got a buff, definatly running my raptor talon with a 10 man squad with an icon for that 4+ FNP, run my warlord in there and hope for a 3+ fnp. That and combat drugs and thats some necron level of gak there. That in tandum with the shreikwave gun makes an EC raptor talon crazy!

Also love the noise marines kakophani formation, 6 man noise marine squads with splitfire and +1 strength and shred make them pretty crazy. Ugh Im so excited!

I'm trying to think about how to run the Kakophoni. 5-6 man squads in rhinos and with some form of sonic weaponry comes to mind. Have you any experience running noise marines? Are blast masters worth the 30 points? Up to 2 split fire shred s9 ap3 blast templates with ignores cover and pinning sounds pretty awesome. Especially when it's on 10 3+ with a 4+ FNP. Factor in that need to have 6 squads of noise marines, a Slaanesh marked lord or Lucious, and an aux formation sounds really really limiting and makes me think that sticking to small squads with sonic blasters would allow you a bit more flexibility in what to add to the list, whilst still bringing the noise in the form of 8-10 s5 ignores cover shred shots if they move, or 12-15 shots if they stand still with 24 inches range! They definitely need to be able to get to where you want em quick to bring the noise. A steed of slaanesh on that lord you have to bring along anyways seems like it can be a bit trolly if thrown on to a death star of S5 ignores cover shred shots, what with the whole outflank/acute senses and all. Especially when you put on that blob an Icon of Excess. Any turn now prepare to eat 38 s5 ignores cover shred shots, then the turn after that prepare for 57 s5 shots! might be worth it at that point to put a blast master or 2 in there so you got something worth shooting at something else

macluvin wrote:
I'm trying to think about how to run the Kakophoni. 5-6 man squads in rhinos and with some form of sonic weaponry comes to mind. Have you any experience running noise marines?

Loads, the sonic blasters are reasonably cheap, however Ive always been skeptical of using rhino's and sonic weapons, due to the blasters being salvo if they move their range becomes 12 inches and only fires 2 shots, as well as blastmasters not being able to fire.

With the new formations I suggest if your going to put them in a rhino, take sonic blasters and units of 6, the +1 strength ignore cover is incredible for the extra 3 points. Also take the extra CC weapons for 1 extra point per model. If you move out of the vehicle next turn your shooting 3 shots per model which is great!

If your taking blastmasters every turn of shooting you lose make it less worth its points, with 48 inches just sit it on an high area and blast whatever you can see. Use the splitfire to shoot anything in range of the unit.

I'm pretty happy with what i've heard so far. People wanted legions, well. They got them! Not that the result is going to be ott good but i do see regular marines getting used with some decent effect!

Noize marines look tasty, though sonic blasters are still salvo, so i'm not really sure they're gona be very effective without either infiltrate or relentless. Don't know if they can get it. Combat drugs are a fun opportunity, really. So, a bit contradicting. On one hand, you gain great sonic buffs for s5 and shred 3-shot bolters. But they're salvo, so you can't really shoot them for at least a turn. On the other hand, you gain combat drugs and an attack before death. So, maybe it's a chance to split forces like 50-50? 3 squads with sonic weapons and blastmasters camping backlines and 3 squads with syrens (do they also get +1 str?) and ccw roll forward in rhinos to be a general fearless 6+++ super flamer annoyance.

Oh, night lords - my favorite legion. Stealth is cool. Raptors as troops...well, with raptor talon it's ok. But fear is pretty useless vs anything other than orks. And i'm the only ork player around, so...other formations need to be seen. They're gona go to basically shrowded 1-st turn. But once again, no ds mitigation whatsoever. Don't think it's gona work all that great.

Alpha legion. Super trolls. I can see them being good in a scoring game. Not gsc good but still. The hit and run relic has a potential of being fun. Especially good as min allies for competitive play as non-marked units don't suit to well for deathstars. The army as i see it is a bunch of chosen with some special weapons and a hell ton of zealot cultists. All infiltrating. And yep, cultists return on 4+. So, there's no reason to not take a bunch of min squads with flamers. Chosen could do their plazma/melta work. And a semi-deathstar with hit and run relic. Probably, with allies. Just a CAD with nurgle spawns and a lord/sorc would suffice.

Nurgle is king as usual.

World eaters have potential. And yep, you're gona get 15 ppm zerkers with ws4 out of your regular csm. I've always thought that that's the true price of zerkers. And with all the movement buffs they now get, it's gona work! Hell, if you're not forced to take maelstorm of gore, you can get a non-overpriced melee-ish khornate warband!

Black legion...don't know. Deepstrike again. No scatter mitigation again.

Iron warriors. Solo oblis with 6+++ and tankhunter. Yep, no t5 but still. One of the best 'troops' in the game.

This addition is the best by far, EC and deathguard are definatly coming out on top, fearless nd FNP armywide is amazing, same with the stealth the DG gain.