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Made in us
Sinewy Scourge




Boulder, Colorado

Hey dakka, I am in the process of writing a list for my DE, and I can't seem to know where to start. I am not 'new' to DE, but I don't play with them often, and I'm sure their meta has changed since a few years ago.

I have a bunch of kabalite, five venoms, all the HQ's except Lelith and the court. A few raiders, only a single ravager, two razorwings, and sadly no reavers as they are so freakin expensive, a talos, a bunch of grotesques (three normal models and a ton of crypt horrors from AoS).

Any help with building a list and tactics?

I am thinking msu venoms is the way to go? Since everything is gonna die to a light breeze, it might be better to try and reduce casualties?

Do I put blasters in my Kabalite units? What HQ do I take?

Anyways, I have a lot of questions as DE seems really hard to play, and I am not the best tactician

Thanks everyone!
~Mikey


   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

MSU Venom spam with Blaster Warrior squads is a great place to start. Add your single Ravager (no more than that as they are sub-par) and the 2 Razorwings. For HQ, I personally like a single Lhamaean, but you mention you don't have the Court. You could perhaps use your Succubus model as a Lhamaean?
The next best choice is an Archon with WWP, but you really need a unit that benefits. Like some Medusa or Eldar Wratihguard.

For your Grotesques, you really need to run them in a Grotesquerie formation. This can also solve your HQ issue as they make a great body guard for a Succubus. Take 2 untis of 4, the formation Haemi joins 1 unit, your CAD Succubus joins the other. Put both units in Raiders.

1 Talos is not great, but if you got a Cronos & another Heami, you can take the Dark Artisan Formation, which is the best Warlord DE have.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I don't feel like DE covens get the love they are due. Grotesquerie and Corpsethief Claw are solid competitive choices, in my opinion. They're both rock hard and can steamroll most targets with relative ease. Dark Artisan is also nice and probably one of the most durable units in the game for the points. It suffers from extreme lack of mobility and rather weak offensive potential, though, which is a shame.



   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge




Boulder, Colorado

Yeah, I don't have a ton of covens stuff, I can field the Scarlet Epicureans, Grotesquerie, and scalpel squadron, but that's about it.

I would have fit a scalpel squadron in if I had enough venoms, as I think it is a very cool formation (even though not being the best).

Covens do seem strong however, I do have a bunch of grotesques, so should I run grotesquerie with two or three squads of grotesques? I am thinking two as it gets expensive quickly....

The Dark Artisan seems pretty fun, I might need to get my haemi and talos painted in prep as it seems like a really fun centerpiece. Any advice on that?

Also, how much anti armour is too much anti armour? it feels really easy to fill my list with blasters and haywire...

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



Portland, OR

MilkmanAl wrote:
I don't feel like DE covens get the love they are due. Grotesquerie and Corpsethief Claw are solid competitive choices, in my opinion. They're both rock hard and can steamroll most targets with relative ease. Dark Artisan is also nice and probably one of the most durable units in the game for the points. It suffers from extreme lack of mobility and rather weak offensive potential, though, which is a shame.





They get plenty of love. It's just the competitive options are neither skiffs nor Kabalites or even Wyches, pretty much all the prettiest models. Venoms and monsters all day is good but boring. Also, I don't know anyone able to field Wracks en masse so half the book isn't an option for a lot of folks.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

MilkmanAl wrote:
I don't feel like DE covens get the love they are due. Grotesquerie and Corpsethief Claw are solid competitive choices, in my opinion. They're both rock hard and can steamroll most targets with relative ease. Dark Artisan is also nice and probably one of the most durable units in the game for the points. It suffers from extreme lack of mobility and rather weak offensive potential, though, which is a shame.

I agree for the most part, however, the Dark Artisan can be a nasty surprise for an opponent if you give the Haemi a WWP (which is pretty much mandatory). Lack of mobility isn't an issue when you can drop in 1" away from the enemy. All the better if behind them, forcing them to move away and potentially closer to your Grots.

-

   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

 gummyofallbears wrote:

Also, how much anti armour is too much anti armour? it feels really easy to fill my list with blasters and haywire...

Thats entirely dependent on your local meta, Dark Eldar struggle for anti-tank as the Dark Lance is a poor weapon for the job these days so you find yourself filling up on Haywire Scourges and heat Lances. But there are plenty of people out there who don't run any vehicles, making those choices largely useless.

The all round best choices are Grotesques, Reavers and Talos when getting into combat as they're generally useful agaisnt everything.

And with your Ravager I'd advise to run it with Disintegrator Cannons, you'll get far more out of it when shooting 9 S5, AP2 shots at elite infantry rather than trying to take down the odd Rhino.
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge




Boulder, Colorado

I guess that is the good thing about Dark Lances and Blasters? They seem to be good TEQ and MC killers.

Grotesques seem to be a tarpit against dedicated CC units and a blender against troops and the such, is this a correct assumption?

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 gummyofallbears wrote:
I guess that is the good thing about Dark Lances and Blasters? They seem to be good TEQ and MC killers.

Grotesques seem to be a tarpit against dedicated CC units and a blender against troops and the such, is this a correct assumption?

Yeah, basically. Grots can also do good against light vehicles with all their S5 attacks.
   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

 gummyofallbears wrote:
I guess that is the good thing about Dark Lances and Blasters? They seem to be good TEQ and MC killers.

Grotesques seem to be a tarpit against dedicated CC units and a blender against troops and the such, is this a correct assumption?

Spot on on both counts there. This is why Blasterborn are still very much a thing.
   
Made in gb
Agile Revenant Titan






I think the current thing with the Grotesquerie is to run two squads of 3 with HQ support. That way they still get majority toughness 5, but get to benefit from Rampage against pretty much any target.

Shame about the lack of Reavers as a squad of 3 as a cluster caltrop bomb is one of the more competitive units in the codex.

D6 S6 HoW attacks at the I10 step is a bit of a multipurpose tool, and one of the few things in the 'dex that can assault into cover properly. Then, H&R out and repeat

Another idea I had recently was to take two lots of the Realspace Raiders formation for 12 FA slots. Then, alongside your standard Kabs in Venoms and a Grotesquerie, fill the rest of the slots with single Beastmasters/Khymaerae at 10pts a pop and use your 12 individual units to be bl**dy annoying

Be good to eat overwatch for your Grots as well

Check out may pan-Eldar projects http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/702683.page

Also my Rogue Trader-esque spaceport factions http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709686.page

Oh, and I've come up with a semi-expanded Shadow War idea and need some feedback! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/726439.page

Lastly I contribute to a blog too! http://objectivesecured.blogspot.co.uk/ Check it out! It's not just me  
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge




Boulder, Colorado

If I did run Realspace Raiders, it'd be to max out my reavers in min squads, not only are they the coolest looking models in the codex, they are also some of the best

Although the idea of that many single models running around seems really annoying for your opponent, lol

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/08 01:48:36


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





The Dark Artisan seems pretty fun, I might need to get my haemi and talos painted in prep as it seems like a really fun centerpiece. Any advice on that?

As Galef alluded, the Dark Artisan is best at area denial. Webway it down somewhere really inconvenient for your opponent, and pick off units with it the best you can. It's no powerhouse for the points, but it's still two monstrous creatures in a unit plus whatever damage the Haemonculus can offer. You'll eventually take out anything short of heavily-armed assault specialists. It'll just take awhile.

It's pretty hard to whittle down T7 with 3+ and 3+ FNP, so most people will likely tar pit you and/or run away as they are able. In other words, your little Frankenstein unit is a pretty strong anvil for your hammer. That's a huge plus, considering how slow Coven units are. It also helps you exploit your overall mobility advantage if you have regular DE allies (I.e., venoms, readers, etc.) by forcing your opponent to move in (hopefully) an undesirable fashion.
If you really want to go full-on tank, run the Artisan behind a Corpsethief Claw for the rerolls and FNP bonus. That's going to be most of your army, but it sure will look impressive!
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge




Boulder, Colorado

Wouldn't the Dark Artisan only get a 4+ FNP?

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 gummyofallbears wrote:
Wouldn't the Dark Artisan only get a 4+ FNP?

Yeah, but the Haemy can get a relic to boost his to 3+ FNP and he can tank, plus if he's warlord they reroll 1's
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Usually yes the dark artisan has a 4+ there's a relic the haemonculus has that will allow him 3+ and shrug off his first instant death wound. The relic is pricy though.

The 4+ FnP does extend to units within 6 inches boosting a corpse thief formation. Also, if the haemonculus from the DA formation is your warlord you reroll 1's on FnP on any Talos or Cronos within 12
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Hey dakka, I am in the process of writing a list for my DE, and I can't seem to know where to start. I am not 'new' to DE, but I don't play with them often, and I'm sure their meta has changed since a few years ago.

I have a bunch of kabalite, five venoms, all the HQ's except Lelith and the court. A few raiders, only a single ravager, two razorwings, and sadly no reavers as they are so freakin expensive, a talos, a bunch of grotesques (three normal models and a ton of crypt horrors from AoS).

Any help with building a list and tactics?

I am thinking msu venoms is the way to go? Since everything is gonna die to a light breeze, it might be better to try and reduce casualties?

Do I put blasters in my Kabalite units? What HQ do I take?

Anyways, I have a lot of questions as DE seems really hard to play, and I am not the best tactician

Thanks everyone!
~Mikey



check out www.thedarkcity.net

As for getting started, the Grotresquerie Formation is as close to an auto include as I'll ever admit to. It's just too good. 2 Raiders, 8 Grotesques, a Haemonculus. Add Aethersails. Profit.

I cannot even begin to recommend them enough as a core to any force you build. It is not the only way to build a force but man are those things worth their weight in gold most of the time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/08 06:52:14


Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge




Boulder, Colorado

Doesn't the talos only have a max of 4+?

Sorry for the silly questions, I don't have my codex on hand.

I am familiar with the relic, the nightmare doll, correct?

Anyways, the grotesquerie is something I haven't used yet, like ever, I guess that was just because I didn't own enough grotesques, but because I have some many crypt horrors, it seems a lot like an auto include.

The Dark Artisan is something I'll build towards too, definitely seems like fun.

Thanks!


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The Talos will have a max of 4+, but the Haemonculus has a 4+ and can add 1 to FNP rolls with a nightmare doll. If you have him out front to soak wounds with the majority T7, you've got a serious bullet sponge.
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge




Boulder, Colorado

Oh alrighty, and he can negate force weapons and the such which is good. Thanks for the advice.

What is your opinion on the scalpel squadron, does it have an purpose besides null deployment?

   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Doesn't the talos only have a max of 4+?

Sorry for the silly questions, I don't have my codex on hand.

I am familiar with the relic, the nightmare doll, correct?

Anyways, the grotesquerie is something I haven't used yet, like ever, I guess that was just because I didn't own enough grotesques, but because I have some many crypt horrors, it seems a lot like an auto include.

The Dark Artisan is something I'll build towards too, definitely seems like fun.

Thanks!


proxy them in a list immediately. the Grotesquerie Formation is awesome.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 gummyofallbears wrote:
Oh alrighty, and he can negate force weapons and the such which is good. Thanks for the advice.

What is your opinion on the scalpel squadron, does it have an purpose besides null deployment?


Love Scalpel Squadron! I did an article on that...hmm... it was a long while ago but...

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2014/11/haemonculus-coven-book.html

Bayam.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/08 19:49:23


Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in us
Hellion Hitting and Running






 Galef wrote:

I agree for the most part, however, the Dark Artisan can be a nasty surprise for an opponent if you give the Haemi a WWP (which is pretty much mandatory). Lack of mobility isn't an issue when you can drop in 1" away from the enemy. All the better if behind them, forcing them to move away and potentially closer to your Grots.

-
If you do run a haemi with WWP have you ever tried liquifiers on your grots? Dropping down and being able to fire a few flame templates seems really good, and the liquifier has a 50% chance of offering no save for MEQ units. The s3 seems pretty bad but to be honest they seem more powerful than a normal flamer because of the chance at not letting the opponent have an armor save.

You do have to drop a close combat weapon making them less effective in the attack but they already have so many attacks naturally and from rampage.
   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

Liquifiers aren't remotely worth the 15pt asking price IMO, S3 with random AP means they're more likely to completely fail than actually achieve anything, and for an extra kick in the teeth they take away an attack from your Talos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 gummyofallbears wrote:
Oh alrighty, and he can negate force weapons and the such which is good. Thanks for the advice.

What is your opinion on the scalpel squadron, does it have an purpose besides null deployment?

The Nightmare Doll will negate the first Instant Death attack your Haemy receives, however it instantly stops working after that.

The Scalpel Squadron is disappointing. Sure, deep striking Venoms on turn 1 is cool but Wracks are worthless.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/09 13:24:01


 
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

That isnt the point, REALLY of the Scalpel Squadron. Its so you can deploy nothing. This is of great value when going second if you have a lot of Obsec that can get places, and of course...Dark Eldar do.

Still wish Wracks were Troops though. As elites, they just dont make sense.

Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



Portland, OR

Wracks can be decent. In conjunction with your Cronos giving them a 4+ FNP they make a decent semi-killy tar pit and the Ossefactor is pretty solid actually. Not worth the Elites tax, but worth running in Scalpel. They are also pretty good at getting First Blood if that's your aim with them.
   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

If your Cronos is hanging around buffing Wracks then it's out of position as it should be biffing Talos or Grotesques.

I've tried the Scalpel Squadron and whilst automatic turn 1 deep strike is nice I quickly find myself wondering "what else can it do?", with the answer invariably being nothing.
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge




Boulder, Colorado

Liquefiers don't seem very good. S3 makes then pretty bad.

Maybe the scalpel squadron can bully tiny units and try to get first blood on some scouts or something? But that's very situational.

And a null deployment list doesn't seem very good. DE already have the mobility to go anywhere they need, why get additional risk? Sure you deny your opponent a turn of shooting, but the Scalpel squad might very well get beat up without an issue... it seems too risky.

   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

aushlo wrote:
Wracks can be decent. In conjunction with your Cronos giving them a 4+ FNP they make a decent semi-killy tar pit and the Ossefactor is pretty solid actually. Not worth the Elites tax, but worth running in Scalpel. They are also pretty good at getting First Blood if that's your aim with them.
'

Ossefactor is a great weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Imateria wrote:
If your Cronos is hanging around buffing Wracks then it's out of position as it should be biffing Talos or Grotesques.

I've tried the Scalpel Squadron and whilst automatic turn 1 deep strike is nice I quickly find myself wondering "what else can it do?", with the answer invariably being nothing.


Again... It's value is not what it does. it's what it stops the opponent from doing. Dark Eldar are glass cannons. We all know that. But what do you do ABOUT it? well the answer is you can Null deploy so that your damage dealing counts for more and so your bulk can last longer to take objectives.

the Scalpel Squadron allows you to do it. All armies have certain weaknesses. Scatter bike lists hate the burgeoning number of units that can assault from deep strike. The Tau empire will always hate fast melee units, and especially ones that can stop them from getting support fire. White Scars Battle Companies dislike servo skulls coupled with anti-tank firepower. Cabal Powered Dawgstars dislike large numbs of STR 8 blasts and of course the Culexus assassin. the list goes on.

Dark Eldar deal damage amply. Grotesqueries are out of this world, the Incubi, against their intended targets are terrors, the BeastPack is so many wounds that it's nigh unkillable when made fearless and the Court of the Archon, easily the most underrated unit in the codex deals death like crazy if you shove it up someones nose. Thr trouble always is WHEN you do these things.

Power From Pain favors the slow blade. So when you have a tool wherein you can go second and use the Scalpel Squadron, it's really ideal. When played the way that is ideal, you kind of steal the enemies thunder for two rounds and STILL bring the same pain, but with less time for the enemy to kill you after wards, by two turns no less. Dark Eldar can take up space REALLY well and they can blockade well. So if you see your army for what it is, a damage dealing porcelain hammer, and you are able to get the jump on theenemy and then weather the return engagement better because theres less time for attrition it can be a real winning combination.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/09 19:57:54


Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

Far too risky, DE lack much in the way of reserve manipulation. Relying on the Scalpel Squadron is putting yourself far too out there for an early tabling before you can get your units into the game.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Power From Pain favors the slow blade. So when you have a tool wherein you can go second and use the Scalpel Squadron, it's really ideal. When played the way that is ideal, you kind of steal the enemies thunder for two rounds and STILL bring the same pain, but with less time for the enemy to kill you after wards, by two turns no less. Dark Eldar can take up space REALLY well and they can blockade well. So if you see your army for what it is, a damage dealing porcelain hammer, and you are able to get the jump on theenemy and then weather the return engagement better because theres less time for attrition it can be a real winning combination.
i agree with the point you're trying to make, but I don't think 2 Venoms with some Wracks is the stalwart force you want staving off a swift tabling. You'd have to get funky with allies and/or a fortification for the reserve tricks you'd need to make that even sort of viable. You can't afford to have your fragile boats roll in piecemeal. Having 2/3 of your army scoot in, an average roll, might not be sufficient.
   
 
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