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I want to build an Iron Hands deathstar that looks like this

Spartan Battle Tank with 4 twin linked lascannons, flare shield and ceramite plating. This would be piloted by Castrmen Orth who gives 1+ BS to his tank as well as tank hunter.

The Leader of the Death Star will be either Autek Mor or Ferrus Manus. Autek Mor can give the squad preffered enemy but Ferrus can give all tanks It WIll Not Die and all infantry a 6+ FNP as well as repair the Spartan on a 2+ due to battlesmith.

The thing I'm struggling with right now is what bodyguard they should have. I want this deathstar to attack other TEQ and deathstars So far my ideas are:

x5 Cataphractii, 3 power fists and 2 chain fists. 4 combi plasma and I'm not sure what the heavy weapon would be.- This is good because it has a 4++ Invulnerable and can throw out 10 plasma shots.

x5 Gorgon Terminators, 3 power fists and 2 chain fists. 4 combi plasma and I'm not sure what the heavy weapon would be.- This is good because it has a 5+ FNP and can throw out 10 plasma shots, however it only has a 5+ Invulnerable.

x5 Command Squad- 3 power fists and 2 chain fists. All in Cataphracti armour with a cyber familiar each. All with combi bolters.- This is good because it has a 3++ invulnerable and a 2 wound standard bearer who can make the squad fearless. However, they cannot take combi-plasma.

Some things to consider, Command Squad can take volkite chargers but I don't think they're worth it because they only deal one extra wound per turn than bolters. The FNP from the Gorgons wont come in to play if they attack other TEQ units who have S8 weaponry. Gorgons are only t4 and so will have their FNP negated by power fists. Also, Ferrus Manus can give all other units a 6+ FNP if he joins them anyway.

Please help me, I can't choose what to buy. There are worse problems but still

Step 1: play 40k if your looking to build deathstars, while 30k does have some really good death stars, it's not fitting the spirit of the game as such.

Step 2: choose the unit you like the look of most, gorgons look really nice when with Ferrus manus and gell well with him, adding a primarch to any unit pretty much makes it a death star.

How the units work in 30k doesn't matter as much as it does in 40k, otherwise units like destroyers would never be used, I run kharn with rampagers because it looks good, angry Ron with red butchers for the same reason (though that is a cc death star), I'm not trying to lecture you, just think you should go with what you think looks the best and make it work.

I'd argue Deathstars are fitting but they're just not as effective as they are in 40K. 40K Deathstars revolve around sticking the best things from multiple codex together zip around the whole board and kill everything turn after turn. They can't really do this in 30K as easily.

I say command squad or Gorgons, but if you go Gorgons do a 10 man, bc maxed out everything is best.

While I agree that the game could be all about fluff and stuff... I dont think 30k is played any differently from 40k.

Just look at all the lists brought up by people in this forum. All include quad mortars with phosphex. How's that even 'fluffy' or not That Guy.

Play what you like mate... and remember: legions were massive. Any combination you can think of they would've probably fielded anyways.

 More Dakka wrote:
I'd argue Deathstars are fitting but they're just not as effective as they are in 40K. 40K Deathstars revolve around sticking the best things from multiple codex together zip around the whole board and kill everything turn after turn. They can't really do this in 30K as easily.

I say command squad or Gorgons, but if you go Gorgons do a 10 man, bc maxed out everything is best.

Then you'd be wrong, as its not about effctivness, as you probably know a lot of people migrated over to 30k originaly to get away from the mess that is 40 k (something the players are also responsible for), 30k is more laid back, you can take those less optimal units because , hey, so does you opponent, I try to reiterate this whenever anyone asks me about 30k, it's a different game and so far it doesn't suffer from the stupid arms race and waac mentality that has ruined 40k for a lot of people.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 teban wrote:
While I agree that the game could be all about fluff and stuff... I dont think 30k is played any differently from 40k.

Just look at all the lists brought up by people in this forum. All include quad mortars with phosphex. How's that even 'fluffy' or not That Guy.

Play what you like mate... and remember: legions were massive. Any combination you can think of they would've probably fielded anyways.

Pre calth, all I used to see was "fluff list this" now that its easier to get into 30k (which is great) sadly the 40k mindset is starting to infect the game, also thankfully it's not sticking and I see others on here and elsewhere that this is not 40k, and it needs to be seen differently, which most 40k gamers seem to go along with, some don't, it's there loss when they can't find games.

 Formosa wrote:

 More Dakka wrote:
I'd argue Deathstars are fitting but they're just not as effective as they are in 40K. 40K Deathstars revolve around sticking the best things from multiple codex together zip around the whole board and kill everything turn after turn. They can't really do this in 30K as easily.

I say command squad or Gorgons, but if you go Gorgons do a 10 man, bc maxed out everything is best.

Then you'd be wrong, as its not about effctivness, as you probably know a lot of people migrated over to 30k originaly to get away from the mess that is 40 k (something the players are also responsible for), 30k is more laid back, you can take those less optimal units because , hey, so does you opponent, I try to reiterate this whenever anyone asks me about 30k, it's a different game and so far it doesn't suffer from the stupid arms race and waac mentality that has ruined 40k for a lot of people.

This. I don't play pick-up games of 40k anymore, only against my friend who has the same ideals as me. I'm more than happy to play against anyone with 30k.

Rule of Cool > Deathstars in 30K. Take what you want and play with it. Don't bring that WAAC 40K mentality into 30K please.

30K should be about getting to use Primarchs, and fantastic units/vehicles that you don't see in 40K. Going WAAC, with MSU's, and building Deathstars is what has destroyed 40K and made it "unfun". Add in Formations, and 40K is broke beyond all recognition. I think you'll find the 30K crowd here on Dakka is more Rule of Cool then WAAC, and you may get some harsh rebuttals when you try to bring 40K mentality into 30K.

Whatever Deathstar you choose to bring will ultimately face a Deathstar just as nasty or better then yours.

If I was fielding Ferrus, then it would be Gorgan Terminators all the way. No other Legion can take Gorgon Termy's- they are unique to the Iron Hands, and nothing looks better on the table then a Primarch surrounded by his Legion's unique squad.

 Tamwulf wrote:
Rule of Cool > Deathstars in 30K. Take what you want and play with it. Don't bring that WAAC 40K mentality into 30K please.

30K should be about getting to use Primarchs, and fantastic units/vehicles that you don't see in 40K. Going WAAC, with MSU's, and building Deathstars is what has destroyed 40K and made it "unfun". Add in Formations, and 40K is broke beyond all recognition. I think you'll find the 30K crowd here on Dakka is more Rule of Cool then WAAC, and you may get some harsh rebuttals when you try to bring 40K mentality into 30K.

Whatever Deathstar you choose to bring will ultimately face a Deathstar just as nasty or better then yours.

If I was fielding Ferrus, then it would be Gorgan Terminators all the way. No other Legion can take Gorgon Termy's- they are unique to the Iron Hands, and nothing looks better on the table then a Primarch surrounded by his Legion's unique squad.

Bingo! Hence Kharn and rampagers and angron and red butchers, it just looks cooler

 Formosa wrote:

 More Dakka wrote:
I'd argue Deathstars are fitting but they're just not as effective as they are in 40K. 40K Deathstars revolve around sticking the best things from multiple codex together zip around the whole board and kill everything turn after turn. They can't really do this in 30K as easily.

I say command squad or Gorgons, but if you go Gorgons do a 10 man, bc maxed out everything is best.

Then you'd be wrong, as its not about effctivness, as you probably know a lot of people migrated over to 30k originaly to get away from the mess that is 40 k (something the players are also responsible for), 30k is more laid back, you can take those less optimal units because , hey, so does you opponent, I try to reiterate this whenever anyone asks me about 30k, it's a different game and so far it doesn't suffer from the stupid arms race and waac mentality that has ruined 40k for a lot of people.

So loading up CC units in a Spartan is somehow not playing 30K correctly? My point is that there's a difference between what you can create in 30K and what you can create in 40K and the purpose behind both. In 40K you build deathstars to win games, in 30K you build them to have a smashy unit that may or may not win you games due to their limitations, points-sink etc, but they're damned fun to play.

I find deathstars in 30k to be integral to the game BUT they simply aren't on the same level as what you see in 40k which is what makes it work.

An the reason i say there integral is because every single one includes a Primarch and what ever the primarchs legions best unit is.

E.g. I play both Word Bearers and Iron Warriors. My Word Bearers regularly run Lorgar, Zardu, primus Medicae and 8 Gal Vorbak in one unit, Transported in a Kharydbis assault claw. My Iron Warriors have Perturabo escorted by 5 Iron Circle foot slogging. I play against EC, NL, DG and Salamaders most regularly and everytime I bring my Death Star they bring their own equivalent by a gentleman's agreement.

Now you throw these units at each other and they just tear each other to bits gradually, turn by turn. Throw em against any other unit and they utterly ahhnilate it in no time. So yeah, every legion has a deathstar BUT i feel every legion has a suitable counter to it as well.

I think everyone has massively missunderstood me when I say deathstar lol. I don't want a unit that runs around and wins the game singlehandedly. If I wanted that we'd be looking at 10 cataphractii with primus medicae, chaplain and Ferrus in the spartan. I just want a unit that is good in cc and can get there safely. I don't have a "waac" mentality. That is why I was considering Autek Mor, he isn't a beatstick and doesn't bring any over the top buffs. I wanted something fluffy, fun and unique. Asking what the best cc unit to put with your primarch isn't a bad mentality, it's common sense. You wouldn't put Angron with devastators because they don't compliment eachother. Once more, I'm not trying to build some game breaking unit like people do in 40k with chapter master smashfucker or crossing over a 101 different codexs to make a god unit. I asked, which of these 3 units would do best with my primarch or this captain. I was trying to build a fluffy unit. Iron Hands love tanks, hence the tank. Ferrus Manus would usually have had morlocks as his guard but since they don't have rules I tried to pick one of the 3 terminator units that I like. Castrmen Orth came to Istavaan with Ferrus Manus, hence why he is in the tank. I want this unit to hunt other commanders the way ferrus hunted fulgrim on istaavan. Thats all. I wouldn't even say this qualifies as Deathstar status, yes it has a primarch, but it's no Vulkan with 10 firedrakes or Horus with Justaerin. I realise that the thread is called how to build a deathstar, but you've all taken it way too literally. It's just a good cc unit, I don't even build deathstars in 40k because I don't think it takes any tactial skill. It's just running around hitting things with broken and overpowered units. Tbh, I wouldn't even condemn someone if they brought 10 firedrakes with Vulkan, because it's fluffy. They are his honour guard, he is a primarch. It's a natural combination.

witlock89 wrote:
So yeah, every legion has a deathstar BUT i feel every legion has a suitable counter to it as well.

But no legion has a counter to quad-mortars.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

witlock89 wrote:
So yeah, every legion has a deathstar BUT i feel every legion has a suitable counter to it as well.

But no legion has a counter to quad-mortars.

Sure they do! It's called a Legion Artillery Tank Squadron- Basilisk, Medusa, Whirlwind, or a Whirlwind Scorpious. Or any flyer, as most Quad Launcher players only purchase blast weapons, and you can't shoot blast weapons at a flyer. Or you deepstrike a unit right next to the Quad Launcher, shoot them, and then assault. Again, most Quad Launchers have a minimum range of 12". Get in close, and they can't shoot you (the crew can with their bolt pistols...). As a Sons of Horus player, my favorite tactic is to use my Anvilius Pattern Drop Pod and fly over the unit hitting them with d6 S5 AP5 hits.

Another good one: Deathstorm Drop Pod. DS it next to the Launchers and watch your opponent cry.

Yes, Rapiers are the cheapest, easiest way to get good artillery in a Legion list. However, there are a variety of counters available to a Legion player for them.

Graviton instant wounds rapiers as they don't have a strength value. Food for thought.

Well first off, ignore the people who are trying to push their views of the game off on you. Everyone plays the game for different reasons and everyone gets something different out of it. It is honestly one of the things I dislike the most about the 30k community. This FAAC (fluff at all cost) mentality. Apparently wanting to win with a hard list makes you a bad/wrong fun player.

-There are some people/groups who want to play the most competitive game possible.
-There are some people/groups who want to play the fluffiest game possible

Neither is wrong. It is your preference. That being said, your play style might or might not mesh well with the people you normally play with. No one here is a better expert on that than you though.


As to the actual question. Regardless of who you choose to lead the group, I would stay away from Cataphractii Terminators. You want to be able to run the enemy down after you beat them in combat (assuming you don't just wipe them from the table). I use Cataphractii for shooting (sometimes) and Tartaros for CC.

 Tamwulf wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

witlock89 wrote:
So yeah, every legion has a deathstar BUT i feel every legion has a suitable counter to it as well.

But no legion has a counter to quad-mortars.

Sure they do! It's called a Legion Artillery Tank Squadron- Basilisk, Medusa, Whirlwind, or a Whirlwind Scorpious. Or any flyer, as most Quad Launcher players only purchase blast weapons, and you can't shoot blast weapons at a flyer. Or you deepstrike a unit right next to the Quad Launcher, shoot them, and then assault. Again, most Quad Launchers have a minimum range of 12". Get in close, and they can't shoot you (the crew can with their bolt pistols...). As a Sons of Horus player, my favorite tactic is to use my Anvilius Pattern Drop Pod and fly over the unit hitting them with d6 S5 AP5 hits.

Another good one: Deathstorm Drop Pod. DS it next to the Launchers and watch your opponent cry.

Yes, Rapiers are the cheapest, easiest way to get good artillery in a Legion list. However, there are a variety of counters available to a Legion player for them.

Or just take more Quad Mortars of your own to spite your opponent. It's a real fun way to make friends!

Yeah, I just don't like the Rapier weapons. They just don't fit in with the Legion aesthetic, and I'm not sure what a mobile artillery piece would look like for Legion infantry. To me, they fail the Rule of Cool. Table top effectiveness? Oh yeah. They have that in spades, and so cheap too. How/why someone at Forge World thought it would be a good idea to give Legions a Rapier is beyond me. Or to consider what an Artillery unit with Power Armor would do to the game.

So I look for other options and/or ways to deal with my opponent's Rapiers using either what I normally take in my list, or more cool designs. Such as the Scorpious. I don't know why, but it just looks cool to me, and bonus points for it being so effective on the table as well. The great thing about a Rapier unit? Eliminate one Space Marine and watch them fail their Leadership test and fall back.

im pretty sure you can download the plans online. you just have to get them before the rebels do.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
im pretty sure you can download the plans online. you just have to get them before the rebels do.

Have an exalt

 Formosa wrote:

40k mindset is starting to infect the game, .

Just after I have started an HH army. Great...
I hope it's different in my area

1. "Sure they do! It's called a Legion Artillery Tank Squadron- Basilisk, Medusa, Whirlwind, or a Whirlwind Scorpious. Or any flyer, as most Quad Launcher players only purchase blast weapons, and you can't shoot blast weapons at a flyer. "
Shatter shells are not blast. And they'll eradicate any vehicle.
2. " Or you deepstrike a unit right next to the Quad Launcher, shoot them, and then assault. "
Let's count the number of ways you can assault the turn you Deep Strike, since you won't be there if they get to shoot.
3. "Again, most Quad Launchers have a minimum range of 12"."
Read the Barrage rule again. Minimum range doesn't mean what you think it means.
4. "As a Sons of Horus player, my favorite tactic is to use my Anvilius Pattern Drop Pod and fly over the unit hitting them with d6 S5 AP5 hits. "
Oh no, a d6 wounds that need a 6 to wound and can be armor saved.

There are NO counters to Quad Mortars except more Quad Mortars. The existence of this this unit derails any argument about 30k being "more balanced" or "fair" than 40k. It's exactly the same, monstrously unbalanced.

Death Guard are a nice counter: you get a 4+ FNP against the phosphex rounds, and beyond weight of wounds they have no other method to pop high Armour saves.

They blow in close combat, they are durrable to shooting (no more durrable than Mechanicum shenanigans)
shatter shells are good, but are still just tank-hunting missile launchers: it's good, but it's not the single best AT in the game.
Deepstriking next to them either forces them to waste shots, or get killed off the next turn. if you land an assault claw next to 'em holding 5-10 terminators, you can wipe them with little fear from them.
roll a spartan up to 'em (or contemptor/leviathan or anything with AV: 14 or AV: 13 with an invuln) and pop 'em that way.
most legion artillery tanks out-range shatter shells, so those are good counters to 'em as well.
primarchs can stomach them well enough, as can most mechanicum shenanigans.
solar auxilia or militia for leman russes can pop 'em like nothing since they outrange the shatter shells
longer ranged heavy support squads in ruins stop 'em fairly well
ANY infantry available to legions that can get within charge range can deal with them
making them run through fear or other such spells ends them completely
getting invis or shrouding helps a ton
most fliers can deal with them well enough since 6's to hit without twin-linked isn't all to fun
Being that quad mortars eat elite slots, they probably won't have all to spooky of a CC element in their army, so close the gap and play around em.
Poison or destroyers with packs and the rad missile pop 'em well enough
missile launcher heavy support squads ruin their days
autocannons force enough saves on them
other quad mortars (as you said)
Do you want me to go on?

Are they strong? Yes, of course. are they some end-all, be-all of cheese? no. They have very obvious and affordable counters, and if you're gonna try and say they have no counters, then you haven't played against them enough or you are willfully trying to sound ignorant.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
There are NO counters to Quad Mortars except more Quad Mortars. The existence of this this unit derails any argument about 30k being "more balanced" or "fair" than 40k. It's exactly the same, monstrously unbalanced.

This is somewhat contradictive. 40k is broken, but that is because it has a vast amount of broken units in relative to the majority. Everything from wulfen to Riptides, from scatterbikes to Graviton competes on a whole different level to the lower tier.

30k has far less of this. In fact, I struggle to think of anything aside from quad mortars. If there is only one single problem, compared to 40k's status where there may well be just as many broken things as fine things, then surely 'more balanced' is exactly the term you would use?

Stick a Deredero Dread next some Fulmentari/Tyrant Siege termies and hope to god that you get first turn is also a viable option. As well as a Typhon siege tank. Quad mortars are really scary but Brennon is correct that they aren't unbeatable. They just require people to build lists around killing them.

They really need to be reigned in though. Quad mortar spam kills lists with tactical blobs which I think are the coolest 30k armies. Maybe a price hike, make them a 0-1 option or just reduce the shots.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Stick a Deredero Dread next some Fulmentari/Tyrant Siege termies and hope to god that you get first turn is also a viable option. As well as a Typhon siege tank. Quad mortars are really scary but Brennon is correct that they aren't unbeatable. They just require people to build lists around killing them.

They really need to be reigned in though. Quad mortar spam kills lists with tactical blobs which I think are the coolest 30k armies. Maybe a price hike, make them a 0-1 option or just reduce the shots.

A say a decent price hike will tone 'em down enough rather than limiting or changing how they function. maybe something like 80 points before other shell options? that way, a single kitted out mortar (shatter + phosphex) runs ~115 instead of 95

Geronimo509 wrote:
Well first off, ignore the people who are trying to push their views of the game off on you. Everyone plays the game for different reasons and everyone gets something different out of it. It is honestly one of the things I dislike the most about the 30k community. This FAAC (fluff at all cost) mentality. Apparently wanting to win with a hard list makes you a bad/wrong fun player.

-There are some people/groups who want to play the most competitive game possible.
-There are some people/groups who want to play the fluffiest game possible

Neither is wrong. It is your preference. That being said, your play style might or might not mesh well with the people you normally play with. No one here is a better expert on that than you though.


As to the actual question. Regardless of who you choose to lead the group, I would stay away from Cataphractii Terminators. You want to be able to run the enemy down after you beat them in combat (assuming you don't just wipe them from the table). I use Cataphractii for shooting (sometimes) and Tartaros for CC.

Thank you, I agree with you about the community. So far it's been pretty split with some people being way too protective over the game to the point where I said to someone I might be collecting DG and he pretty much freaked out and said I was a power gamer. The other half have been friendly and do seem more laid back than their 40k counterparts. I do want to win, I don't know anyone who doesn't, but I still want a fluffy list. I'm actually still shocked at the responses to asking which unit is best for a primarch xD I was thinking about Tartaros but Iron Hands Legion Rules mean its almost impossible to perform a sweeping advance anyway. I think that I will buy some tartaros, but they will serve as my lightning claw termies and my cataphracii as my Praetor/Autek Mor/Meduson/Ferrus' honour guard and TEQ hunters. Would this be an ok idea or are there any glaring faults? Also, do you think it would be ok to use the Gorgon terminators as Cataphractii or would people have beef with that? I do love their models.

 Brennonjw wrote:


Are they strong? Yes, of course. are they some end-all, be-all of cheese? no. They have very obvious and affordable counters, and if you're gonna try and say they have no counters, then you haven't played against them enough or you are willfully trying to sound ignorant.

On the contrary, I have played exactly enough against 12 Quad Mortars to know that none of the things you listed actually matters to 12 Quad Mortars.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:


Are they strong? Yes, of course. are they some end-all, be-all of cheese? no. They have very obvious and affordable counters, and if you're gonna try and say they have no counters, then you haven't played against them enough or you are willfully trying to sound ignorant.

On the contrary, I have played exactly enough against 12 Quad Mortars to know that none of the things you listed actually matters to 12 Quad Mortars.

Same here, and I know that what I listed does. What does the rest of your army look like, and what does the rest of his look like? Mind you: I'm not defending this person. If you bring 12 quad mortars or only "the best" things outside of maybe tournaments, you're being a bit of a "that guy"

 Brennonjw wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:


Are they strong? Yes, of course. are they some end-all, be-all of cheese? no. They have very obvious and affordable counters, and if you're gonna try and say they have no counters, then you haven't played against them enough or you are willfully trying to sound ignorant.

On the contrary, I have played exactly enough against 12 Quad Mortars to know that none of the things you listed actually matters to 12 Quad Mortars.

Same here, and I know that what I listed does. What does the rest of your army look like, and what does the rest of his look like? Mind you: I'm not defending this person. If you bring 12 quad mortars or only "the best" things outside of maybe tournaments, you're being a bit of a "that guy"

Its a dodgy list and as someone who runs all infantry and uses a squad of 3 quad mortars often with phosphex they are hard to deny in effectiveness but since they are also pretty easy to kill i wouldnt worry too much, generally if someone sets a battery up my tyrants (or other aplicable unit) will just kill it turn 1.

Horus with twelve of his justaerian, Guilliman with a full unit of Suzerains, Etc. In a spartan.

Throw in an apothecary/chaplain if you have room.