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2020/02/19 19:08:39
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
As said before ghaz would likely not be clan locked but he won’t benefit from any clan trait but Goff’s... however you also can’t grot shield ghaz with anything but goff grots either.... that’s my guess...
I know it’s a slow drip from Gw but at this point it’s just wait and see... it’s soon we will start getting the full reveals and I’m hopeful we get more then ghaz and Makari
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/19 19:09:52
2020/02/19 19:40:05
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Jidmah wrote: To be honest, I can't a remember a single story where Thrakka was actually leading Goffs. It's almost always Evil Suns, Bad Moons or Freebootas, with some Blood Axes and Deffskulls sprinkled in.
I'm with you. I guess his "Bullyboyz" are Goff?
In fact, depending on how much love Meganobz get (they might not need much), they might make a convincing case as to why we'd want a Goff detachment and what purpose the Grots serve there.
We'll have to wait and see I guess!
2020/02/19 20:10:14
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
So far almost every redone character sculpt has come with some new rules of some sort. All the Primaris characters at the very least got the typical Primaris stat bumps (+1W and +1A) amongst other things. Abbadon got changes to his weapons and got a beefier statline as well (boosted up +1S and +1W and I think +1A). Even Shadowsun got new rules as well.
I could see Ghaz going up to 9 wounds to still be untargetable and having 6 attacks base instead as well. while also getting up-gunned with his Big Shootas getting AP and D2 or something. His Kustom Klaw is already pretty killy so I don't see how they'd boost that up than they already have. Hopefully whatever special rule they do give him is the one that lets him ignore Klan restrictions.
2020/02/19 21:06:48
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Makari must go with Ghaz, in case he go alone, he will be the worst character of the game (maybe some utility in picking an objective with 2++, but useless anyways).
Ghaz could be like Badrukk, just losing the exploding 6's.
Orks 5000p
2020/02/19 21:10:38
Subject: Re:No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
I dunno, Ghaz looks huge from what we've seen IMO. I'm still hoping he's bumped up all they way to 16 wounds and just becomes a complete monster. Give him a Mangler squig type bracket system from AoS (meaning he's weak at the middle bracket but super strong again near death) and makes his kustom klaw D4 and 7 attacks.
He really might be close to redemptor sized I think and characters usually have a few more wounds than a model their size "should" (heck just look a 4 wound makari) so it's not that crazy I think.
Expand the prophet of gork an mork ability to also reduce incoming damage by 1 to a minimum of 1. Up the damage on the klaw to 4 and switch out his twin bigshootas to twin supa-shootas. Keep the rest of the abilities the same with the exception that he fits into any klan, not just Goffs.
That'd be my dream for Ghaz, not just a slightly upgunned version of what we already have.
Edit: Also Makari is confirmed as an HQ by GW Facebook right? I assume he's a real cheap slot filler. He's surely cheaper than a 62 point weirdboy so if you can get him standalone he might still provide some value just due to that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/19 21:12:10
2020/02/19 21:13:33
Subject: Re:No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
PiñaColada wrote: I dunno, Ghaz looks huge from what we've seen IMO. I'm still hoping he's bumped up all they way to 16 wounds and just becomes a complete monster. Give him a Mangler squig type bracket system from AoS (meaning he's weak at the middle bracket but super strong again near death) and makes his kustom klaw D4 and 7 attacks.
He really might be close to redemptor sized I think and characters usually have a few more wounds than a model their size "should" (heck just look a 4 wound makari) so it's not that crazy I think.
Expand the prophet of gork an mork ability to also reduce incoming damage by 1 to a minimum of 1. Up the damage on the klaw to 4 and switch out his twin bigshootas to twin supa-shootas. Keep the rest of the abilities the same with the exception that he fits into any klan, not just Goffs.
That'd be my dream for Ghaz, not just a slightly upgunned version of what we already have.
If ghaz is W16, he will be useless as fk, in my opinion
Orks 5000p
2020/02/19 21:17:38
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
It is, in all fairness, probably less useful than the magic 9W but the statline I made up above feels like a much closer approximation of what he should be IMO. I don't need my primarchs (or equivalent) to be top tier competitive but I will say that a 16W T7 model with a 2+/4++ that reduces damage by 1 and effectively barely brackets is probably quite sturdy.
2020/02/19 21:24:02
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Ghaz going above 9 wounds is all bad. He would be hot garbage unless hes laughably cheap for what he does because that guy is going to get focused fired SO HARD
If anything, give him the guilliman treatment of a "i didnt die yet" shenanigan to get more wounds.
Nevermind the bracketing of a named character is just stupid. Magnus brackets, and because of it i really dont pay him much mind since even if i didnt kill him (since he can be shot freely) he's usually busted down enough to not be as big of a problem.
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
2020/02/19 21:24:40
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
I think the problem with going with that kind of build for Ghaz is that it really doesn't match with most ork lists outside of lists with lots of multi-wound models for target saturation purposes, ala dread waaagh! and mech lists, both of which don't synergize with Ghazzy rules-wise anyway. If we had something along the lines of a generic "prime-ork" like Ghazzy then it would be more feasible but given that it's not currently fluffy nor are we like Daemons/CSM with their plethora of DP/Lord Discordant, I think having the 9 wound Ghazzy is the best call even if he's a lot larger than the 9 wounds would suggest.
2020/02/19 21:52:20
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
New ork player here, fallen head over heels for the army. I'm playing my first real 2k pts game in a tiny tournament on sunday. Other players: Nids, Guards/Scions, Death Guard, and Possessed bomb chaos.
1) List commentary
I would love to hear commentary, critique and suggestions on my builds, if any of you have the interest or patience. Will be reporting back on how the tournament goes.
My lists are both triple battalions, similar in many respects, with variations on flash gitz/wazbomb blastajet vs. tankbustas
Spoiler:
Batt 1: Freebootaz
Badrukk
KFF mek
3x grots
6x flashgitz
all except grots in a trukk which i will be tellyportaing
Batt 2: Deathskullz
Weirdboy w warpath and da jump
Souped up Shokk Attack
3x grotz
Wazbom blastajet
Batt 3: Evil suns
Deffkilla Wartrike
Warboss w PK and kustom shoota
3x 29 boys, PK nob
6x nobs on bike, 2 with pk, 4 with big choppa, all with kustom shoota
Megatrakk Scrapjet
Painboy
The other list is the same - with Bad moons: 10 tankbustas, a second SAG and 10 less boys replacing the the Freebootaz: flashgitz, kaptin and trukk, and the DS Wazbom jet
Feeling the tankbusta team more.
2) More curious on this one. How do you deal with possessed bombs, and how do you deal with guard (standard lots of infantry, leman russ, basilisk, bullgryn, 3x scion drops)?
Edit: retardation
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/19 22:52:33
Admech | Knights | Orks | Stodes
2020/02/19 23:03:17
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Against possessed bomb, I deploy all my gretchlins as a screen to stop the first-turn-charges that would destroy all my boyz, with a good deployment and strategy, ur boyz would be ok after that, and your pirates and boyz should be able to deal with that possesseds and your bikes (you've got quite a lot) should be able to do the same as them, run a lot and charge his back line.
My commate is astra militarum and I always win, my SSAG focus punishers and my boyz just run like crazy into his troops.
My other commate is death guard, I struggle at killing his terminators but he's so slow that I use to win by points.
Against nid, I just focus genestealer with a proper gretchlin screen turn 1 to avoid genestealer charges, same as possessed bombs.
That's what I use to do, but I don't play bikes
Orks 5000p
2020/02/19 23:34:15
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Against possessed bomb, I deploy all my gretchlins as a screen to stop the first-turn-charges that would destroy all my boyz, with a good deployment and strategy, ur boyz would be ok after that, and your pirates and boyz should be able to deal with that possesseds and your bikes (you've got quite a lot) should be able to do the same as them, run a lot and charge his back line.
My commate is astra militarum and I always win, my SSAG focus punishers and my boyz just run like crazy into his troops.
My other commate is death guard, I struggle at killing his terminators but he's so slow that I use to win by points.
Against nid, I just focus genestealer with a proper gretchlin screen turn 1 to avoid genestealer charges, same as possessed bombs.
That's what I use to do, but I don't play bikes
Thank you for the feedback and tips!
Edit: I gather the bikes in general aren't very good - which I don't understand yet, but then again I haven't really played with them. I used them in a smaller points game versus Nids, where they were great at boxing the opponent in turn 1.
I take the Speed Freeks detachment, where they have a Strat to move double distance. With ES, that's a 32 inch move + d6+1 advance With the deffkilla, I can unload all those shots and still charge. I don't know, though. We'll see!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/19 23:36:11
Admech | Knights | Orks | Stodes
2020/02/20 01:18:31
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
In case you were looking for more details, characters have a rule where they can't be targetted by shooting unless they are the closest target OR have a wound characteristic of 10 or higher.
Some guns/abilities can get around this but for the most part you don't want a character to be above 9 wounds unless they are crazy durable or not a big deal if they die.
2020/02/20 01:33:05
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Bikes suffer in a lot of ways, they require a very specific tactic to use and even then they tend to die.
The issue is T4-5 2W models are stupid easy to punish right now. Imo the issue is 2D weapons are too common, other than Primaris marines (which are stupid cheap for those stats) i dont know of any T4-5 2W models that doesnt really suffer from this problem.
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
2020/02/20 02:10:29
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Vineheart01 wrote: Bikes suffer in a lot of ways, they require a very specific tactic to use and even then they tend to die.
The issue is T4-5 2W models are stupid easy to punish right now. Imo the issue is 2D weapons are too common, other than Primaris marines (which are stupid cheap for those stats) i dont know of any T4-5 2W models that doesnt really suffer from this problem.
Yeah, agreed, they can be very easy to remove. I run them as Nobz on bikes, which gives that 3rd wound, and with the -1 to hit in shooting strategem, they can last a bit longer.
I do use them as a kamikaze-style positioning piece more than anything tho. Lot of dakka with the kustom shootas (4 str 4, 6 str 5 shots per model), but they're mostly good as distraction carnifexes that can do some surprise damage a round. Then they get wiped. 256 pts for the 6 models with 2 PKs, 4 big choppas, 6 kustom shootas
Admech | Knights | Orks | Stodes
2020/02/20 07:43:19
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
I don't know, warbikers have done pretty well for me in every game when fielded with buggies, koptas and nauts. They don't make back their point in stuff they kill, but their speed combined with their durability against small army fire has proven to be a great tactical asset to me.
PiñaColada wrote: It is, in all fairness, probably less useful than the magic 9W but the statline I made up above feels like a much closer approximation of what he should be IMO. I don't need my primarchs (or equivalent) to be top tier competitive but I will say that a 16W T7 model with a 2+/4++ that reduces damage by 1 and effectively barely brackets is probably quite sturdy.
My experience with playing against Magnus and fielding Mortarion myself is that neither survives a turn unless you get lucky with that invulnerable save or the enemy fails at shooting. It would be the same for Thrakka, and he is slower than either of the daemon primarchs.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/20 09:41:32
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2020/02/20 09:58:35
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Jidmah wrote: ...My experience with playing against Magnus and fielding Mortarion myself is that neither survives a turn unless you get lucky with that invulnerable save or the enemy fails at shooting. It would be the same for Thrakka, and he is slower than either of the daemon primarchs.
I suppose we have our teleport strat to negate a bit of that, here's hoping he has something like that built in.
We've been playing a lot of CA2019 missions in my club, combining the eternal war and maelstrom missions and I've found that going second confers several advantages. It really helps where we have house ruled all first floor terrain to be LOS blocking.
The best thing about it is, first turn alpha strikes are effectively neutered, especially with the deployment rules. If you're the attacker you really have to deploy with consideration to the counter-punch.
It's made for more satisfying, and tactical gaming so far.
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
2020/02/20 11:11:42
Subject: Re:No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Without this becoming a tactica thread for some madeup statline for Ghaz, I just want to reiterate that I agree with the concensus of this thread, a 9W Ghaz would be better than a 16W one. To not clog up the thread too much, I'll elaborate in a spoiler below:
Spoiler:
The comparison to Morty or Magnus is somewhat fair, those dudes often die fairly quick and easy but as noted by r_squared above you would probably still be able to tellyporta a prime-ghaz in, thus reducing the risk of being alphastruck (though I guess he'd lose the infantry keyword so no da jump). Magnus is almost literally impossible to hide due to his wings and Morty isn't that much better, even a redemptor sized Ghaz would be much easier to sneak out of LoS, since it's rarely the thickness of the midsection that does a model in. Again, the model would barely bracket and with a painboy nearby would honestly be one of the more durable models in the game (for what that's worth in a super killy 8th).
The whole idea is how would you make a targetable Ghaz work, because I'd really hate for him to be stuck behind that arbitrary 9wound line simply because I don't think he should be that low. In all honestly, I remember -plenty- of people crying about how the lord discordant would be DOA when it was announced he was over 9W and those guys rock so there are venues for it to work. Doesn't mean it will, or is likely, just isn't impossible. How he's costed obviously matter a great deal..
But I guess the bigger thing is, I want Ghaz to be something a lot of people would be interested in, as a fun model to build & paint but also to plonk down a game table. I don't need him to be meta-defining like early days Guilliman, I want Ork players to be able to use him at the FLGS and his opponent be more psyched to him and play against him rather than dread the fact that the model is way too good for his points. I guess my longwinded point is that I certainly don't want him to suck but if he ends up being about as points efficient as Magnus then I'd be okay with that. I wouldn't even want him to be an auto-include for Orks, I just don't want you to end up feeling punished for using him either..
2020/02/20 11:49:03
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Jidmah wrote: ...My experience with playing against Magnus and fielding Mortarion myself is that neither survives a turn unless you get lucky with that invulnerable save or the enemy fails at shooting. It would be the same for Thrakka, and he is slower than either of the daemon primarchs.
I suppose we have our teleport strat to negate a bit of that, here's hoping he has something like that built in.
We've been playing a lot of CA2019 missions in my club, combining the eternal war and maelstrom missions and I've found that going second confers several advantages. It really helps where we have house ruled all first floor terrain to be LOS blocking.
The best thing about it is, first turn alpha strikes are effectively neutered, especially with the deployment rules. If you're the attacker you really have to deploy with consideration to the counter-punch.
It's made for more satisfying, and tactical gaming so far.
Yeah T1 while you shouldn't be able to hide entire army(that's just as bad as nothing hiding) but key units? There's something seriously wrong with board if you go 2nd and can't hide key units. Bit more understandable if you are going 1st and get seized but when going 2nd short of immobile unit like necron pylon there should be no excuse to have key unit(s) hidden
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2020/02/20 12:06:50
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
You can't really hide anything from super-fast units like flyers or LOS ignoring weapons.
We also discussed this before, it's not normal to be able to hide model like Mortarion or Magnus at all.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/20 12:07:43
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2020/02/20 12:31:01
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Well if you play on planet boling ball. They aren"t seriously bigger than knight and if board doesn't have couple knight sized terrain it's board not designed for 40k.
Don't complain about losing stuff 1st turn if you set up terrain badly. Those boards are relic of past. Most have evolved to 8th ed requirements years ago. In 8th you need big los blockers to ensure t1 shooting doesn't criple army and end game.
Losing critical unit like t1 when you go 2nd is own studidity or bad terrain set up. First you can learn, second either learn if you set it or thump head of gunline opponent who sets it.
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2020/02/20 13:05:56
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
We've discussed this and there has been a poll on it. There are also hundreds of pictures of any grand tournament. The amount and type of terrain your gaming group uses is not normal. Neither knights nor Mortarion are 100% hideable on a normal board, nor are they hideable behind a single piece of terrain that either GW or FLG sells.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/20 13:06:25
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2020/02/20 13:22:01
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
I'd agree that Magnus (and Morty to a lesser extent) is pretty tough to hide even on densely populated boards (assuming the enemy doesn't have a completely static gunline) due to his massive wings. But assuming that Ghaz ends up being redemptor sized that's significantly easier and if that task seems impossible then I'd honestly argue that the board sorely lacks LoS blocking terrain..
Planes and things that ignore LoS are always good units due to the fact that they ignore so much of the defensive capabilities of your army but the drawback is often (or should be) that they're not insanely offensively capable per point.
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang. 
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys 
With the deffkilla, I can unload all those shots and still charge. I don't know, though. We'll see!
