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I want to try to capitalize on the interaction between Jax and a Juking Defender for what essentially becomes Crackshot every turn. Figured Stele would be the best pilot for the job for once shields are gone to really dictate how to deal with enemy ships. Added Palpatine for insurance.

Carnor Jax - TIE Interceptor
- Push the Limit
- Royal Guard TIE
- Autothrusters
- Shield Upgrade
35 points

Maarek Stele - TIE Defender
- Juke
- TIE/x7
- Twin Ion Engine Mk. II
36 points

Omicron Group Pilot - Lambda-Class Shuttle
- Collision Detector
- Emperor Palpatine
29 points

Play Jax and Stele together, quickly focus down enemy ship-by-ship.

Critique?
Is there anything that could do with changing?
Do I need to try for an initiative bid?
Shield okay on Jax if he's going for range 1?

Put a sensor jammer on the shuttle and guidance chips on Jax instead of the shield upgrade. It's a list that some people here have been running, and it's really good. Jax turns juke into infinite crack shot, Palpatine makes Maarek's ability terrifying, and the sensor jammer on the shuttle keeps Palpatine alive. You fly it very aggressively and often use Palpatine on offense. Jax gets in and shuts down the tokens, the shuttle hangs back as usual, and Maarek absolutely wrecks stuff from whatever range. Where conventional Palp aces lists rely on overwhelming defense your strategy with this list is often "a dead enemy doesn't shoot back", and it works.

Guidance chips on Jax.... why? He's not firing a secondary torp or missile

 captain bloody fists wrote:
Guidance chips on Jax.... why? He's not firing a secondary torp or missile

Yeah, I'm trying to figure out what he must have meant, there.
To give the Shuttle Sensor Jammer I'm going to need to free up 4 points. Basically just switch it out for Jax's Shield, assumedly. Okay, fine, it's a straight swap in points.
But then what second upgrade should Jax take instead? (Or do I just not take a second upgrade on him?)
Or is there some other shuffling around that needs to happen to give him something? (The only other thing in the list that can possibly be cut without affecting things too much would be Stele's TIE mk.2... but that would only free up one point. Not enough to give Jax anything useful).

 captain bloody fists wrote:
Guidance chips on Jax.... why? He's not firing a secondary torp or missile

Because of Boba Fett (crew).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skoffs wrote:
To give the Shuttle Sensor Jammer I'm going to need to free up 4 points. Basically just switch it out for Jax's Shield, assumedly.
But then what second upgrade should Jax take instead?
Or is there some other shuffling around that needs to happen?

As I said, you trade the shield upgrade (4 points) for guidance chips (0 points) to pay for the sensor jammer. Other than that everything is the same.

 Peregrine wrote:

 captain bloody fists wrote:
Guidance chips on Jax.... why? He's not firing a secondary torp or missile

Because of Boba Fett (crew).

...
Sorry, I'm really lost, here.
I get the Shield for Jammer no problem.
But Boba Fett crew?
I don't understand the interaction going on here.
(I get that he discards upgrade cards, but isn't it the opponent's choice?)

 skoffs wrote:
But Boba Fett crew?
I don't understand the interaction going on here.

Boba Fett can force you to discard an upgrade if you suffer a crit, and hopefully that's guidance chips.

But isn't it Boba's controller who decides what gets discarded?

Yeah Boba Fett let's the user of the card to choose.

Correct, but they can always choose guidance chips. For example, if they're sure they're going to win the game they can pull off your useless upgrade instead of something important as a joke, and then you punish them for it and win. Is it likely to happen? No. But it's even less likely to happen if you leave the slot empty. Plus there's the distraction factor, maybe someone spends time asking the same question that you asked instead of focusing on what matters, and you get to take advantage of it. Can't succeed if you never try!

Ah, okay. No harm in throwing it on, then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But you had mentioned others playing this list. I did a quick check of the threads but didn't immediately see any lists or reports. Had been hoping to see how other people did with it, kind of study up a bit before I tried flying it myself, if you would.
Got any links to people using the above build?

 Peregrine wrote:
Correct, but they can always choose guidance chips. For example, if they're sure they're going to win the game they can pull off your useless upgrade instead of something important as a joke, and then you punish them for it and win. Is it likely to happen? No. But it's even less likely to happen if you leave the slot empty. Plus there's the distraction factor, maybe someone spends time asking the same question that you asked instead of focusing on what matters, and you get to take advantage of it. Can't succeed if you never try!

This plan is on a par with the 15 Mountain sideboard trick, baffling but awesome

A Carnor/ Maarek/ Palpatine list did very well in the Central Texas regional recently (top 8, I believe), when it lost to the "Commonwealth Defenders" (Vessery (juke/x7), Ryad (ptl/eng/x7), Palpatine.

Oh, cool!
Do you know if their matches are on YouTube?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nevermind, found it-

https://youtu.be/b5HaCnKSlKE

So it looks like he went Stealth Device on Jax and Predator on Stele. Interesting.
I think I'd need to test a few different time with the various variables (SD vs Shield, Juke vs Predator, Collision Detector vs Sensor Jammer) to see which I like best before I settle.

FWIW, I think SD > shield/hull upgrade for Carnor (given Palpatine backup. Not as nearly unkillable as Soontir, but still hard to hit (though I can see an argument for shields/ hull 'cause Carnor will probably take more close range shots than Soontir 'cause his ability doesn't work if you are running away).

For Maarek, I don't think Pred is massively better than juke, it just feels more satisfying to control your attack dice rather than the other person's defense dice. Along with Carnor, blocking focus action and spending tokens, I think Juke is probably the better choice.

Collision vs sensors on the shuttle just comes down to points. If you can get the other ships configured the way you want with enough points left, by all means go sensor jammer (esp w/ juke in the mix to tie up tokens). But I don't think it's worth skimping the aces to get it. The shuttle will die/be knocked to half points so jammer is just points for your opponent.

Apostasus wrote:
FWIW, I think SD > shield/hull upgrade for Carnor (given Palpatine backup.

Yes, absolutely. Palp leverages the Stealth Device, since it gives you a bigger pool of dice and so more flexibility when deciding whether to spend tokens or trigger Palp.

If you're using Jax in a three ace list, then there is more of an argument to be made for Hull Upgrade or Shield Upgrade.

If I were to change the sqaud to

Carnor Jax - TIE Interceptor
- Push the Limit
- Royal Guard TIE
- Autothrusters
- Stealth Device
34 points

Maarek Stele - TIE Defender
- Juke
- TIE/x7
- Twin Ion Engine Mk. II
36 points

Omicron Group Pilot - Lambda-Class Shuttle
- Collision Detector
- Emperor Palpatine
29 points

It would leave me at 99.
I would have a few options at that point:
- leave it at 99 for a 1 point initiative bid.
- drop Stele's TIE mk.ii to make it a 2 point bid.
- use the freed up 1 or 2 points to get something for the Shuttle (Tractor Beam or Tactical Jammer for 1, Flechette Cannon, Anti Pursuit Lasers, or Ion Projector for 2)

being so low in PS the tractor beam is nearly useless. if anything i would go the Ion Projector

Apostasus wrote:
Collision vs sensors on the shuttle just comes down to points. If you can get the other ships configured the way you want with enough points left, by all means go sensor jammer (esp w/ juke in the mix to tie up tokens). But I don't think it's worth skimping the aces to get it. The shuttle will die/be knocked to half points so jammer is just points for your opponent.

Strongly disagree here. The sensor jammer is incredibly powerful in this list. With juke and Carnor Jax shutting down focus sensor jammer essentially says "reduce the damage of each attack by 1". That keeps Palpatine alive much longer, especially if they don't commit 100% to killing the shuttle and turn their backs on your aces. Stealth device is a luxury in comparison.

I defer to the wisdom of the Hell bird on the Sensor jammer in this list... I am a novice when it comes to the Lambda (and for whatever reason my opponents have been not Targeting it (like at all... banking, I suppose on being able to kill it in the end game)

Apostasus wrote:
(and for whatever reason my opponents have been not Targeting it (like at all... banking, I suppose on being able to kill it in the end game)

This is a really, really bad plan. Beating Palp aces almost always requires killing the shuttle first, since your chances of getting damage through against Palpatine-buffed aces are virtually nonexistent. You can get away with it sometimes, depending on the exact lists and positioning choices, but if you're consistently ignoring the shuttle until the end of the game you're probably not going to win very often.

I'm going to run the squad with Sensor Jammer on the Shuttle first to see how it plays, but I'm worried about only having one defensive upgrade on Jax. Seems like any intelligent opponent will know to take him out ASAP, as he's kind of the linchpin of the list. With only Auto Thrusters there to help, I'm probably going to be using his two actions to keep him out of arcs but still in range 1... but if I run into BMST he's done for.

 skoffs wrote:
Seems like any intelligent opponent will know to take him out ASAP, as he's kind of the linchpin of the list.

Four things:

1) This is a much more offensive list than the usual Palp aces. You aren't playing defensively all game like Fel lists, you're getting in close and wrecking stuff. A couple damage from Jax to strip the shields, a couple buffed crits from Maarek, dead ship before it can shoot at you. Even if you have to trade Jax for a kill you still often come out ahead. Seriously, this is the kind of list where it's often the correct decision to spend Palpatine to turn Maarek's hit into a crit and let Jax roll naked dice, something that should be horrifying to a Fel player. And sensor jammer keeps Palpatine feeding Maarek crits as long as possible.

2) Jax's pilot ability is a massive defensive upgrade. Shutting off focus on offense means you have to worry a lot less about incoming damage. So between Fel with stealth device and Jax without one Jax is arguably the tougher target, as long as you can get in close.

3) You can still dodge arcs and use Palpatine. Even with BMST Jax isn't exactly easy to take down. It's usually going to take a few turns, and by that point the game is over.

4) The main threat to Jax is bombs (with Sabine) and no defensive upgrade you can take makes any difference there. Things like autoblaster turrets, the party bus, etc, are a close second and stealth device is worth little to nothing against those.

I have a feeling being a long time Soontir fan is going to be a detriment to me as I learn how to use Jax properly, then... better get practicing, I guess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Question, though:
Would it not be worth considering Marksmanship on Stele?

 skoffs wrote:
Question, though:
Would it not be worth considering Marksmanship on Stele?

Definitely not. Marksmanship is a waste. It sucks up your action, denies you the choice of using the focus on defense (and Defenders like having that option) and it costs 3 points. No good.

And now for 1.point more there's expertise, automatically turning your eyeballs to hits without an action. No way should you take Marksmanship.

I have experimented a bit with calculation on Maarek, and even then I've come away feeling it was a bit of a waste. First, your target needs to be at no or low shields, second, you need to have a focus that you don't need on defense, and third, you need to roll a focus. That's a lot of things that need to go right.

I think Palpatine for critical hits is enough catering to Maarek's pilot ability


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Going slightly off topic, I wonder what folks think about reinforced deflectors on the shuttle (more generally... for this list jammer is clearly much more powerful in this list)

Another variant from the West Virginia regionals:

99 points
------

Maarek Stele (35)
TIE Defender (35), Juke (2), TIE/x7 (-2)

Carnor Jax (31)
TIE Interceptor (26), Push the Limit (3), Royal Guard TIE (0), Autothrusters (2)

Omicron Group Pilot (33)
Lambda-Class Shuttle (21), Sensor Jammer (4), Emperor Palpatine (8)
------
Myself, I'd be tempted to drop a twin ion engine Mk II on Carnor to give him some surprise moves, but that might not be the best idea

Apostasus wrote:
Another variant from the West Virginia regionals:

Lies. I know the player of that list and he would never leave off the guidance chips.

 Peregrine wrote:

Lies. I know the player of that list and he would never leave off the guidance chips.

Video here: https://youtu.be/oISrEqMl0DU

I believe you are correct about chips but the videographer said he was too lazy to add em to the overlay

Apostasus wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Lies. I know the player of that list and he would never leave off the guidance chips.

Video here: https://youtu.be/oISrEqMl0DU

I believe you are correct about chips but the videographer said he was too lazy to add em to the overlay

Hmm, Jax didn't come into play much in this match.
Spent a lot of time outside of R1.
Still a good match to study, thanks for the link.

So I tried out a slight variant of your list Skoffs (I swapped in the stealth instead of the shield) and..... my god you can be as aggressive as all f**k with it. I played three games with it and won all three easily with only loosing Jax once, and by that stage I was in mop mode.

I think I may have another list for regionals in Feb now. Cheers