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So do the rad grenade -1T stack If multiple inquisitors with them charge the same unit. Not too sure how to interpret the rule just at the moment.

Does it say they stack? If not, they do not. Multiple instances of the same special rule do not stack unless they specifically state as such. I believe it states this in the introduction to the Special Rules.

They used to stack, if you charged a unit with multiple different rad grenade inquisitors it could actually get dropped to T 0 and removed from play, but it never happened because it is ridiculous.

Not sure about now though.

Rad grenades are a piece of wargear, not a special rule.
Although the wargear's effects might be a special rule....

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Rad grenades are a piece of wargear, not a special rule.
Although the wargear's effects might be a special rule....

It is.

Fragile wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Rad grenades are a piece of wargear, not a special rule.
Although the wargear's effects might be a special rule....

It is.

It is not a special rule.

A heavy bolter is wargear, is it a special rule? No.
An Iron Halo is wargear, is it a special rule? No.
Omnispex, surely that must be a special rule? No.
Enhanced Data Tether? Nope.

Rad grenades do not have a special rule, they simply give -1 toughness.

Skitarii Vanguard have a special rule, on the unit page, listed under SPECIAL RULES, it states the special rule, because it is listed as a special rule then it does not stack. Grenades are not listed as a special rule.
If an effect is not listed in the BRB under special rules, or in the codex it originates from as a special rule "such as Luminagen" where it is set on the wargear as a special rule.
Then it is not a special rule.

A special rule would be any weargear that has a profile and within it profile it lists a named effect, such as poison, melta, flamer, rending, shred etc. I could then flip to the appropriate page for that rule and see what the effect does.

Rad grenades have no such profile listing an effect that would identify it as a special rule. It is simply a piece of wargear and we are following the rules for the wargear.

To quote Zimko: ( https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/682312.page#8514856 )

The exact wording of the rule is this: 'During a turn in which a unit equipped with rad grenades launches an assault, or is assaulted, the enemy unit(s) suffer a -1 penalty to their Toughness until the end of the phase'

The rule is asking you if the enemy unit has been charged by a unit equipped with rad grenades. It doesn't care how many times it has been charged. Only that 'during a turn' it has been charged. Thus the modifier only applies once. It would need specific wording that tells you to apply it multiple times.

Well that is wrong.

Show me where these grenades are identified as a special rule, effects only applying once only applies to special rules.

Ceann wrote:
Well that is wrong.

Show me where these grenades are identified as a special rule, effects only applying once only applies to special rules.

Do those grenades break or bend a basic rule in the game?

Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule

Special rules are so important that many of the other rules in this tome (particularly those for weapons and for troop types) are tied into the special rules given here

1 skitarii rules do not stack not because there a special rule but because of how they are worded "when locked in combat with a unit that contain's one or more models with this special rule" so it doesn't matter how many models/units with rule are in the combat it can trigger 20 times it will only ever be -1t

2 old rad grenades "during a turn in which a unit equipped with rad grenades launches an assault or is assaulted" so all that matters is does the unit have rad grenades not how many models have rad grenades (they don't stack within units)

However several units equipped with rad grenades charging the same unit would stack because the special rule triggers on each charging unit only once. The rule then impacts the unit that is charged. Just like several different units all throwing a frag grenade at the same unit wold be effected by several blasts not a singular blast because it can only be effected once

Nb it would also work if the enemy multi charged several units with the rule.

3 this is long established as how it works

4 new rad grenades have identical wording therefore are no different to old rad grenades

5 most tournaments restrict formations so while this works the reality is you can't get more than a handful unless your unbound and remember they have to charge as separate units

Look at a Skitarii Vanguard.

WARGEAR:
• Skitarii war plate
• Radium carbine
SPECIAL RULES:
• Doctrina Imperatives
• Feel No Pain (6+)
• Relentless
Rad-saturation: While a unit is locked in combat with one or more models with this
special rule all models in that unit subtract 1 from their Toughness (to a minimum of 1).


He has wargear and he has special rules. Is a Radium Carbine a special rule? No.

Does the Radium Carbine have a special rule? Yes.

Rad Poisoning: When firing a weapon that has this special rule, a To Wound roll of 6 causes 2 Wounds on the target unit, regardless of the target’s Toughness. Each Wound is
allocated and saved against separately.

Specifically notated as a special rule within its codex, luminagen has the exact same scenario.

He can take an Omnispex, does that have any special rule? No. It is not notated as such and neither is like half the wargear in the game.

Do they break a basic rule? No, they don't.
Show me what basic rule they are breaking. This is no different than a psyocculum or empyrean brain mines or psybolt ammuniton. Hell there are relics that don't have any special rules.


Do they have a special rule? No, they don't.
Show me the page in the BRB where there is an effect listed for these grenades, or in either Inquisition codex where the effect is listed as a special rule.

There seems to be a vast misunderstanding of what is a special rule and what is not.

Ceann wrote:

There seems to be a vast misunderstanding of what is a special rule and what is not.

Which is odd, as you have just been given the definition.

Where you seem to have a difference is opinion, is that whilst the vast majority of special rules have unique names, there are a few which don't. This doesn't make them less special, as long as they meet the criteria for special rules, which is a rule which breaks or bends a main game rule.

To say that modifying a units toughness when you charge it is not changing main game rules is not something I can agree with. It is therefore special a special rule and does not stack.

Show me the basic rule that is being broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Page 8 BRB

Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify....

Not, special rules only, WARGEAR.

If a model has a combination of rules OR WARGEAR that modify a characteristic, apply multipliers first etc etc.

Page 156 BRB

Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once. However, the effects of multiple different special rules are cumulative.


I do not see a special rule under Rad Grenades in the codex, I do not see a special rule under the BRB special rules section for Rad Grenades or an ability given to them. It is a piece of wargear, listed under wargear, the rules state wargear can modify attributes and it has no special rules associated to it.


So yes, it is very very odd that you don't understand this after I explained it to you.
You seem to be under this impression that something is a special rule just because you feel like what it is doing is special. That is your opinion and not a rule.

Show me where it is a special rule, show me the basic rule it is breaking, as there is a basic rule stating wargear can do this.

Already covered Ceann.

Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule.

Show me where in the BRB that WARGEAR is defined as something other than a general term.

Already covered Fragile.

Page 8 BRB

Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model's characteristics positively or negatively by adding to it, subtracting from it, multiplying it, or setting it to a value.



Not wargear WITH special rules, wargear OR special rules.
The entire purpose of special rules is to supersede what another rule says. There is no basic rule that states characteristics cannot be modified, snap shooting is a perfect example of a basic rule that modify's a characteristic.

If I hit a Celestine with a base str 10 attack, instead of getting Instant Death she has Eternal Warrior, that conflicts with what is being stated about Instant Death.
If a model had a special rule that stated its characteristic's couldn't be modified, then in this case the grenades would do nothing.
Again you are making an assumption about what is a special rule. We can clearly see what are special rules, they are called special rules on a data sheet or listed as a special rule in a codex.

The problem as in most gw problems is ambiguous wording

Breaking the main game rules - find me the definition of main game rules the main game rulebook features the word special rules 444 times exactly and spends 7 paragraphs defining what special rules are and what you have.

A model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once here's the thing it isn't

Inquisitor 1 charges 1's grenade has the rule it applies once and gives unit b -1t

Then Inquisitor 2 charges 2's grenade has the rule it applies once and gives unit b-1t

Unit b has -2t net

The model gaining a benefit is the inquisitor it is only applied once in in both charges the unit they impact on is irrelevant

What SPECIAL rule does it have? Please explain it to me.
Special rules are merely a list of rules that take PRECEDENCE when conflicting with another rule.
Rad grenades do not have a special rule, they simply have rules for rad grenades.

Rad Saturation? Nope.
Melta? Nope.
Gets Hot? No.
Rending? Not that either.

There is an entire section called Special Rules and the special rules are in that section. Just like on a datasheet for Skitarii Vanguard it has Rad Saturation listed in SPECIAL RULES.

Everyone seems to be operating under this vague idea that the rad grenades must be a special rule, however there is nothing that indicates that they are.

Each piece of wargear has its own rules.
Some wargear also have special rules.
When there are special rules it will explicitly notate it as a special rule.

Such as Phosphoenix, it has special rules, phosphex and luminagen.

Phosphex: When firing a weapon that has this special rule, a successful To Hit roll scores 3 hits against the target unit instead of 1.

Luminagen: A unit that suffers one or more unsaved Wounds, glancing or penetrating hits caused by a weapon with this special rule counts...

Notice in each circumstance they identify themselves as a special rule.

So no, the model ends up with -2t.
Wargear is notated as being allowed to modify characteristics on page 8 and another example of a basic rule modifiying would be snap shooting.

You need to demonstrate this is breaking a rule and that it is a special rule. I have provided pages and sections that indicate it is not.

Special rules section
Sub section what special rules do I have
Paragraph 3 "this is by no means an exhaustive list"


2nd for some extra rules lawyery smack down

Check out the unusual grenades rule

You will find this in the grenades of the 41st millenium section

"Some grenades do not have a profile"

Rad grenades do not have a profile

"Any effects they have will be covered in their special rules"

Ergo their effects are special rules

I have now provided the sections proving they are....

Smack down complete

U02dah4 wrote:
Special rules section
Sub section what special rules do I have
Paragraph 3 "this is by no means an exhaustive list"


2nd for some extra rules lawyery smack down

Check out the unusual grenades rule

You will find this in the grenades of the 41st millenium section

"Some grenades do not have a profile"

Rad grenades do not have a profile

"Any effects they have will be covered in their special rules"

Ergo their effects are special rules

I have now provided the sections proving they are....

Smack down complete

That argument doesn't work. A general blanket statement meant to explain a broad idea is not a rules citation.


That being said, Rad Grenades don't stack. The wording of the rule provides no ability to do so - There is one conditional statement. If a unit charges or has been charged by a unit with rad grenades, they are at -1 Toughness for that phase. It's not 'The rad grenades inflict -1 Toughness until the end of the phase', it's just a -1 if that condition is met. If you are charged by three different units, you are still just at -1, because the grenade's rule is binary - Either it is triggered or it isn't.

No that just proves the rad grenades rule is a special rule to counter the previous argument


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rad grenades have always stacked they haven't changed the wording why rehash old arguments


Automatically Appended Next Post:


A model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once here's the thing it isn't

Inquisitor 1 charges 1's grenade has the rule it applies once and gives unit b -1t

Then Inquisitor 2 charges 2's grenade has the rule it applies once and gives unit b-1t

Unit b has -2t net

The model gaining a benefit is the inquisitor it is only applied once in in both charges the unit they impact on is irrelevant

Except it isn't labeled as a special rule, which is the scenario where the effects do not stack because special rules do not stack unless said special rule explicitly says it does.

In this case, they are never identified, called or description as a special rule of any kind. Calling them such is a self assumed extrapolation.

Again PAGE 8 BRB states wargear is allowed to do this. Rad Grenades are a wargear. They do not have a special rule. Hence the "the effect has already been applied" argument is moot because it is entirely contingent upon these grenades having a special rule and that has not been established.

There is a section of the BRB that notates what special rules exist.
Codex's notate what things have special rules.
You are fabricating that it is a special rule from nothing.

The "breaks or bends the rules" is part of the explanation of the rules that follow in that section "the special rules section", unless there is a rule in that section "hence making it a special rule" that term is unrelated to the rule in question. This "model gaining the benefit" is also an attribute of a special rule. These arguments mean nothing unless you have shown where rad grenades are a special rule.

Bringing these up is about as effective as yelling "Well drop pods don't scatter!" It has nothing to do with proving your point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Going to ground is a rule.
Is it a special rule? No.
Snapshooting is a rule.
Is it a special rule? No.
A psyocculum or psyammo is wargear.
Do they have a special rule? No.
Brainmines...? No.

These each modify str, cover, ws, initiative and all of them are not special rules.

Do the rules on page 8 state, verbatim, that wargear is allowed to modify characteristics? Yes.

Clearly we have things that are not special rules that modify without being special rules.

Show me the rule that is being broken.
Show me where the grenades are notated as a special rule.

I refer you back to the unusual grenade rule specifying that the rules that govern grenades without a profile are special rules

Ok... what page and book/codex is this rule on that you are referring me too.
If you have this you should have provided it a long time ago.

Still waiting for that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Again... this means nothing.

Right above "unusual grenades" it states...

and therefore any grenade that can be used to attack a vehicle in close combat can also be used against a building.

A model that can use such a grenade as a melee weapon can only ever make one attack, regardless of the number of attacks in its profile or any bonuses. Different grenades have different profiles WHEN USED IN THIS MANNER, as explained below.

Circa - Unusual Grenades

Unusual Grenades are specifically notated to apply to grenades that can be used as a melee weapon, rad grenades are not used as a melee weapon, in fact rad grenades don't even shoot, it is just an effect that happens. They are not even actually technically grenades except for the fact that the fluff name calls them grenades. They do not perform any actions a grenade does which is replacing a shooting or assault attack. By your reasoning on this so far, only one grenade launcher per unit can attack because its named grenade.

So again, please point me to where Rad Grenades are a special rule or identified as having a special rule.
If you cannot, then clearly them having a special rule is an assumption everyone is making.

Not particularly invested in such a heated debate, but I'm going to look up the Rad grenades rules right now and see what it says.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was very curious, because I've been playing alot of skitarrii/Ad Mec and combining Rad grenades with Vanguards and Infiltrators seems like a fun combo.
From Inquisition Codex---
"Rad grenades: During a turn in which a unit equipped with rad grenades launches an assault, or is assaulted, the enemy unit(s) suffer a -1 penalty to their Toughness until the
end of the phase (this does affect the victims’ Instant Death threshold).
-----
The wording to me reads fairly clearly that this does not stack, it would however stack with other modifiers, such as Rad armor or some other Toughness modifiers, but not with other Rad Grendaes, but I could understand why there is some doubt.

 Tsol wrote:
Not particularly invested in such a heated debate, but I'm going to look up the Rad grenades rules right now and see what it says.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was very curious, because I've been playing alot of skitarrii/Ad Mec and combining Rad grenades with Vanguards and Infiltrators seems like a fun combo.
From Inquisition Codex---
"Rad grenades: During a turn in which a unit equipped with rad grenades launches an assault, or is assaulted, the enemy unit(s) suffer a -1 penalty to their Toughness until the
end of the phase (this does affect the victims’ Instant Death threshold).
-----
The wording to me reads fairly clearly that this does not stack, it would however stack with other modifiers, such as Rad armor or some other Toughness modifiers, but not with other Rad Grendaes, but I could understand why there is some doubt.

It does not stack if you have multiple grenades in the same unit. However it does stack if different units with them charge the same unit.
Please remember that Vanguard have a special rule, in their special rule section of their data sheet, called Rad Saturation.
Special rules cannot stack.

Rad Grenades however do not have a special rule.
Just like brain mines don't have one, or psyammo, or a psyocculum.
Note you quoted the rules exactly as they read on the entry, nowhere does it state they are a special rule nor do they have a profile stating a special rule that they have, such as luminagen, melta, haywire etc. Also grenades replace a shooting or melee attack, these do neither, it is just an effect that happens.

Ceann wrote:
It does not stack if you have multiple grenades in the same unit. However it does stack if different units with them charge the same unit.
Please remember that Vanguard have a special rule, in their special rule section of their data sheet, called Rad Saturation.
Special rules cannot stack.

Rad Grenades however do not have a special rule.
Just like brain mines don't have one, or psyammo, or a psyocculum.
Note you quoted the rules exactly as they read on the entry, nowhere does it state they are a special rule nor do they have a profile stating a special rule that they have, such as luminagen, melta, haywire etc. Also grenades replace a shooting or melee attack, these do neither, it is just an effect that happens.

Hmm...

SPECIAL RULES
...
Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule. A special rule might improve a model’s chances of causing damage by granting it poisoned weapons or a boost to its Strength. Conversely, a special rule may improve a model’s survivability by granting it resistance to pain, or the ability to regrow damaged flesh. Special rules allow snipers to target the weak spots of their foes, scouts to range ahead of the army and anti-aircraft guns to blow flyers out of the skies.

This paragraph is a reverse definition. It is including everything that falls under this definition's umbrella as part of that designation.

So, unless rad grenades don't bend or break the main game rules, they either are special rules or carry special rules within them. They do not need to be called Special Rules as what they do defines them as such.

Where are they defined as a special rule.
Please show me.

Ceann wrote:
Where are they defined as a special rule.
Please show me.

I just did. It's right above there.

No, you did nothing.

Snapshooting is basic rule.
Going to ground is a basic rule.

Page 8 gives wargear explicit permission to modify characteristics.

Page 8 is a basic rule.

Rad grenades are a war gear.
They do not have a special rule.
They are not breaking a basic rule.

The unusual grenades rule is in the grenades section of the 40k rulebook

"Some grenades do not have a profile. Any effects they have will be covered in their special rules. Unless specifically stated otherwise these grenades cannot be thrown or used as melee weapons"

Rad grenades have no profile and are therefore this type of grenade



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blast is a defined special rule

If I have 2 units with frag grenades

They both benefit from the blast rule when throwing them blast is a special rule on a weapon

Both units can throw them at the same enemy unit.

For those people saying rad grenades don't stack can you explain why these do because your line of argument presently says the unit becomes immune to blasts once a blast weapon hits it.



As in both cases of rad grenades and blast weapons the model gaining the benefit is the one fIreing not the target therefore they stack