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Made in us
Dangerous Bestigor





Steubenville, Ohio

I'm starting a Varangar army. I've played her a few times. I just don't see the 260 points see costs. The Judgement or Korgan is ok. It's 50/50 though. She is an individual and frankly her not doubling/trebling attacks makes her not worth it in my eyes. Anyone else have a different experience?
The way I look at it I can get 2 Magus Conclaves and a skald for the same price.

Kings of War Herd
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Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




She is a flying individual with def 6+, lifeleech and iron resolve for self healing, and a decent nerve, as well as a decent number of powerful attacks.

In short, even ignoring completly her unique special rule, she is a very hard unit to kill, even more with her being individual, and her damage is not so light that it can be ignored.

She will be able to disorder hordes of fliers and probably kill them with enough time, and she can also add her support to almost any fight where you need it (individual means an effective 360° charge arc and the small footprint and fly should allow her to fit easily in most situations).

She might even be used to finish a wounded dragon hero or similar big monster, or to hold a big unit for at least one turn without dying.

She is very popular in Varangur army from what I see, and some peoples think that she might even be undercosted.

Only problem is that even powerful or not she is indeed a rather expensive unit, so you have to use her effectively to make her worth her point (for exemple if you just hunt weak targets with her, a simple mounted hero might do the same for half the points), but if you do her very very good profile is lagely worth this point cost.
   
Made in us
Dangerous Bestigor





Steubenville, Ohio

I play ogres too. I struggle that Grok is 270 is loads better in combat. If she doubled and tables attacks I could justify it.

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Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok





lobbywatson wrote:
I play ogres too. I struggle that Grok is 270 is loads better in combat. If she doubled and tables attacks I could justify it.


She flies, which he doesnt do, and she has a 50% chance to bring a unit back from the dead, which is massive

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Made in us
Dangerous Bestigor





Steubenville, Ohio

Also a 50% fail rate. She is D6 and individual which means -1 to be shot at. I'm just struggling with her.

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Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




Yeah, the ogre living legend is also very powerful, but not in the same way, he is much more agressive, with more powerful attacks and the access to double/triple attacks from flanks/rear, but he is also much less mobile (no 360° charge arc, no flying), and while decently tough with def 5+, is much easier to kill than an individual with def 6+, iron resolve and life leech.
   
Made in ca
Infiltrating Moblot







Grok is effectively an extra unit of Ogres, with reliable attacks.

Having played against Herja a ton, I can honestly say she's the more versatile of the two players. Individual and Fly along with an insane defensive level means she can stall your opponents big hitters or cause mayhem in the backfield for the entire game. She also keeps the Varangur backfield clear of enemy flyers and will win the attrition fight against most units in the game. Her ability to have a unit simply return to the game can be game changing simply be letting your opponent know which unit it is and being very aggressive with it. You can't guarantee its removal and that can change the entire course of how you play the game.

She's great. Don't let the sticker price fool you. Grok is a maneuverable and reliable Horde of Ogres. Herja is a scalpel that can be relevant the entire game.

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Made in us
Hunting Glade Guard




York, PA

Any defense 6+ individual is gold. You can use them for blocking much easier than units. I will throw them in front of my opponent's counter attack unit and then tear up whatever unit I want. It prevents him from counter attacking because he has a stubborn road block in the way, and since it is just a 20mm base, you can fit her in just about anywhere.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




North Carolina

What models are you guys using for Herja? Any recommendations?

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
 
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




Valkia the Bloody by GW is an option, but some of the more warrior looking succubi by Reaper can also work nicely :

https://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/succubus/latest/03534
https://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/succubus/latest/77370
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok





jtrowell wrote:
Valkia the Bloody by GW is an option, but some of the more warrior looking succubi by Reaper can also work nicely :

https://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/succubus/latest/03534
https://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/succubus/latest/77370


I was actually gonna recommend Troll Slayer Sophie, though she may be to cheerful looking.....

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Made in gb
Been Around the Block





UK

Just a heads up from the CoK book on Herja's Judgement. (This change will probably carry over to V3 So don't get too attached to bringing units back from the dead ).

We've toned it down somewhat so it can't be potentially game breaking ;p.



The new Judgement basically costs Herja a turn to cast it, but it does mean she's got something to do on the first turn of the game vs shooting heavy armies or on turns where she couldn't otherwise charge something.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/03 20:57:14


Kings of War RC 
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority






Not sure how I feel about the change - on one hand, it seems a lot less powerful (and Herja is bloody expensive), but on the other hand it is something that has a better than 50% chance of working.

Maybe if it were beefed up a bit? (Heal [8] or so, I think....)

Mind you - I would be fighting against Herja, since she is part of another player's army, but Heal [5] just seems... underwhelming.

The Auld Grump - or just have it heal 5 points, no roll needed...

Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.

The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block





UK

We definitely aired on the side caution and decided on making it slightly too weak instead of going overboard.

The old rule, while fluffy was a bit too against the feel and flow of kings.

She effectively gets the judgement ability for free. So this is definitely a more toned down (though more reliable) version.

When it comes to V3 we could improve it somewhat and make it an optional extra for an additional point cost, nothings set in stone .

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/06 02:11:16


Kings of War RC 
   
Made in ca
Grumpy Longbeard





Canada

Why not a once off count unit as inspired anywhere on the table.

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Holy Roman Empire  
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority






Well, Chris has dropped her/them from his army.

I think you went too far in toning her down, going from a bargain to not worth it in one swell foop.

The Auld Grump

Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.

The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
 
   
Made in us
Dangerous Bestigor





Steubenville, Ohio

The change made it easy. No. Just no. A heal 5 spell? No way she is 260 points now. I'll stick with Skalds and Cheiftans.

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That seems to be the consensus in my group as well.

She went from Cool to Meh.

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* Or, I could just tell Chris and etc. that we are not going to be following the tournament rules in that regard - Chris is the only one of us that is actually planning on going to any actual tourneys, so while we have been following the CoK tourney rules, there is no law saying that we must....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/06 22:29:44


Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.

The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
 
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




She's still a def6+ flying individual with life leach and iron resolve and a small but decent offensive power, so she's still fairly hard to kill and very mobile, and in addition remember that now that def 6+ has been made much rarer with both vampires losing def and the removal of the armor, so even dragons will only have def5+..

It's true that Vanrangur already have fairly good fighting heroes options, and in many situations a simple mounted hero will be enough to do the job, but this doesn't means that Herja is a bad choice just because you have other options, many armies would love to have her in their list.
   
Made in se
Longtime Dakkanaut






I think Herja would be reasonably popular if she had come with the new rules from the start. Now that people has gotten used to her being very overpowered for her points it'll be hard to justify her since it's hard to not remember her glory-days of overpoweredness and compare her to that, but in a vacum she is actually still decenly worth her points IMO.

It's a very good thing the original judgement rules got slashed. It wasn't a well though out rule. A rule with a massive impact every battle on a single dice roll of 4+ could be balanced in the game as a whole, but it'll always be unbalanced every single battle since either the ability works and then the opponent suffer the full effect or the ability does not work and Herjas owner get nothing despite paying the points for the chance.

I would probably have let her have at least Heal (8) though since it's a one time ability.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/09 23:31:24


   
Made in us
Omnipotent Lord of Change





Albany, NY

jtrowell wrote:
She's still a def6+ flying individual
Of which there are very few left:



AFAIK that's all of the flying, individual, D6+ things left in the game. Possibly all of the flying D6 things left, although the individual thing is not trivial in the least. It's pretty clear that Herja far outclasses all of them when it comes to fighting; even if the budget ones can certainly get more specific jobs done for cheaper - taking out war machines, disordering weak things, etc - Herja can do those things and then some, with an extra side of resilience.

I like to think people were taking her because of her combat powers, her resilience and her ability to apply herself where needed very quickly, none of which have changed (disregarding the CoK changes to disordering flyers, as Herja isn't particularly easy to disorder before she's stuck in, with her small space and supreme maneuverability). Judgement was bs and too unique of a rule in a game that isn't about unique rules. Flipside, I agree that Heal (5) is a pathetic replacement, and since they went to the effort to write a specific rule (rather than just giving her Heal (5) all the time, which I probably would have done), I don't see why they just didn't do a flat "remove 5 damage" as suggested, which feels better than giving her five dice to roll in the shooting phase on the turn she's not blitzing something.

I mean, a more obvious answer is to decrease her points a smidge, but I know the RC is avoiding that with these errata. But even then, legendary characters should rarely be seen on the field* and even then clearly out of coolness and not competitiveness. That so many Varangrr players have their angry red undies in a bind over the loss of Judgement shows how much of a crutch / OP she was.

- Salvage

*looks at Grokagamok

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/10 15:44:39


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Posts with Authority






jtrowell wrote:
She's still a def6+ flying individual with life leach and iron resolve and a small but decent offensive power, so she's still fairly hard to kill and very mobile, and in addition remember that now that def 6+ has been made much rarer with both vampires losing def and the removal of the armor, so even dragons will only have def5+..

It's true that Varangur already have fairly good fighting heroes options, and in many situations a simple mounted hero will be enough to do the job, but this doesn't means that Herja is a bad choice just because you have other options, many armies would love to have her in their list.
I would rather see her with Def 5 and have something closer to her old special ability.

She went from kind of cool to 'why bother?'

So, why bother? She's not really all that special, now. She's now just another killing machine that already has plenty of killing machines.

The Auld Grump - that Def 6 is rare does not make it special.

Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.

The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
 
   
Made in at
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot





Personally, Im kind of annoyed at them making Def 6 so rare. I mean, there are basically no Def 2+ units out there (maybe 1? Might bes misremembering), so youve only got 3+, 4+, 5+ and 6+ to start with. Remove (alomost) all 6+ and youve just got three different levels of defense...

I mean, theres streamlining and theres homogenising. You might as well just have all units wiht the same stats... :/
   
Made in se
Longtime Dakkanaut






I like it myself.
Makes 6+ save be something special.

It also makes armies less dependent on having CS and TC everywhere. There's a huge difference between 5+ and 6+ save for attacks without any CS/TC modifier but not so much as soon as you have at least one point of those. The abundance of 6+ save stuff was steering the meta into a situation where people were almost dismissing basic units outright, if they had no CS or TC

Kinda like how WHFB (and still to an extent T9A) supposedly has unmodified S3 as the basic attack, but all you meet is S4 and up, or if S3, it's with some kind of armour piercing. (when's the last time you got to use a 6+ save in those systems?)

A strength of KoW is it's willingness to not feel the need to have everything be special snowflakes. Using almost exclusively only three of a possible five defence values does make it a bit harder to distinguish unit's but there's a lot of other things that makes units distinct.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/02/18 16:05:23


   
Made in ca
Grumpy Longbeard





Canada

 Tyr13 wrote:
I mean, theres streamlining and theres homogenising. You might as well just have all units wiht the same stats... :/


Poor, average, good and exceptional. Sound good to me; you also have stealthy/ensnare and regaining of wounds to make units tougher in different ways.

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