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Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




What is wrong with Warmachine/Hordes? I come here and hardly see any new posts. If there are new posts there is 5 or less of them. I remember there use to be lots of discussion on Warmahordes. Has this game really tanked because of third edition or 3.0? If so, why? If not, what happened to all the discussions on Dakka here about Warmahordes?

Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
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Leader of the Sept






40k site first and foremost TBH. I post/mostly lurk on the PP forums.

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Hamburg

Well, I used to consider the PP board and battlecollege.org

Former moderator 40kOnline

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Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




 hotsauceman1 wrote:
40k site first and foremost TBH. I post/mostly lurk on the PP forums.


That is what I thought at first but before 3.0, there was a lot of activity here. Now not so much. That is why I thought something changed after reading comments on other sites in the forum section people say Warmahordes is not so good now and then I find the traffic in Dakka not so much either. So I thought maybe there was a correlation that 3.0 is not a good edition after people bragging about "3 years of testing".

I am surprised 3.0 is not so well received and interest just seems not as it once use to be.

Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
Made in au
Norn Queen






Anecdotally, a lot of local Warmachine players seem not too happy with the state of the game at the moment. Seems 3.0 wasn't well received.

Though yes, this is primarily a 40k forum. Think Warmachine activity is low? Try being a Malifaux player.
   
Made in au
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions






This forum was never that greatly trafficked-try PP forums for more traffic.

There's also less to say then 40K-there's no YMDC, no complaints over the poor state of balance, no talking about cheesy combos. There's also less painting/fluff discussion-that could stand to change, but small community.

That being said, most forums slow down over Christmas-that probably has an effect too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/09 03:09:20


My $0.02, which since 1992 has rounded to nothing. Take with salt.
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Made in us
Nasty Nob





SoCal

Yeah, most PP discussion happens on the official forums so even a popular forum like this isn't going to get as much traffic.

Then there's stuff like facebook and reddit, which takes up a chunk of people interested online communications about a game.

There is actually a bunch wrong with WM right now that Mk3 missed the mark on, and you're seeing the fallout happen with stuff like PP's abandoning of the cards and open stats/rules for everyone.

   
Made in de
A Crystal Tree in the Dome of the Seers






Hamburg

Surprised to see that mk3 failed a margin.
My beloved Cryx lost an edge. By the errata, Gaspy2 has been reanimated with his signature spell no longer being UP but RND.

Another issue is that factions like Cygnar became too strong. Some casters/builds are over the top.
Also Wurmwood has been a bit too strong but now it got nerfed by the errata. Not a bad move.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/09 08:08:49


Former moderator 40kOnline

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Made in ca
Martial Arts SAS







It's problem is it isn't growing.

People who traffic the non-official forums like this one are usually in transition from the games popular here (such as the GW brands) into something new.

Over the last several years (nothing to do with the edition change I don't think, which is more effecting their existing core of players) Warmachine has developed a reputation for being somewhat 'inaccessible' to new players and to not be a 'casual' game that can be learned in a night. The existing WM community prides itself on being a 'on the clock' Tournament community (by and large, there are of course outliers) and this narrows the amount of folks gaming in other genres that are attracted to it as a property with initial casual interest.

I've noticed even the PP forums seem to have slowed over the last few years, the majority of the activity being focused on the rules of the game, getting clarity and discussing what the best/most efficient list builds are by faction or against other power builds in the Meta.

Certainly a change from ten years ago when it was active hugely with painters, modelers, RPG fans and fan fiction writers.

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Made in de
A Crystal Tree in the Dome of the Seers






Hamburg

Achilles is right. The game has become a bit inaccessible to those who want to get into it.
The boards are far from enthusiastic and when things stay the same players may fall asleep.
Circle has gained a fantastic new warlock called Una2. She works well with flying Griffons. Take lots of them and the enemy will be in trouble.
But why should I play such a list. It's predictable that PP will axe her in the near future. The same happened to Wurmeood. So I will stay with Kromak and whatnot.

Former moderator 40kOnline

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Made in au
[MOD]
Massive Master Bot Handler






Brisbane

I can see something in what Achilles says about some communities being a bit focused on being tournament communities, but I think a lot of that comes down to the individuals or teams that run local communities. WMH suffered a lot around here towards the end of Mk2 and the accompanying release of GB. A lot of people attributed it to the game getting stale and newer better games (GB at the time) coming along. But then one of the local crowd decided "stuff it, I like this game" and he has since got the local stores (from an hours drive North, South and West) to organise a timetable of events by showing up and talking to them, even though he's from a good way south of the city most of these stores are based in. He's fostered community FB pages and is very active on them either lining up games for new folk with himself or suggesting players he knows in the local meta can give them a good introduction, and just putting in a massive amount of work. And he's not even a Press Ganger yet (or he might have just got okayed, but he was doing this for months before it got sorted out by PP).

So while I agree that communities can be a bit insular/focused on things that aren't that welcoming, you can still be a tournament heavy community (which we are, over one a month) but if the people organising your community have a passion for the game then it'll draw in new blood/draw back old players who had moved on quite well.

Turned into a bit of a ramble, there's a point in there somewhere. Basically the game is alright, communities can be not great, but all it can take is one person to put the work in (and this guy has plenty of family + work commitments) and it'll turn around almost on the spot and start to thrive again. It doesn't help the online discussion of the game much (although those community fb pages are quite active), but if you're getting plenty of games at the store you don't need the online component quite so much

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/09 15:02:59


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Made in ca
Martial Arts SAS







 motyak wrote:
I can see something in what Achilles says about some communities being a bit focused on being tournament communities, but I think a lot of that comes down to the individuals or teams that run local communities. WMH suffered a lot around here towards the end of Mk2 and the accompanying release of GB. A lot of people attributed it to the game getting stale and newer better games (GB at the time) coming along. But then one of the local crowd decided "stuff it, I like this game" and he has since got the local stores (from an hours drive North, South and West) to organise a timetable of events by showing up and talking to them, even though he's from a good way south of the city most of these stores are based in. He's fostered community FB pages and is very active on them either lining up games for new folk with himself or suggesting players he knows in the local meta can give them a good introduction, and just putting in a massive amount of work. And he's not even a Press Ganger yet (or he might have just got okayed, but he was doing this for months before it got sorted out by PP).

So while I agree that communities can be a bit insular/focused on things that aren't that welcoming, you can still be a tournament heavy community (which we are, over one a month) but if the people organising your community have a passion for the game then it'll draw in new blood/draw back old players who had moved on quite well.

Turned into a bit of a ramble, there's a point in there somewhere. Basically the game is alright, communities can be not great, but all it can take is one person to put the work in (and this guy has plenty of family + work commitments) and it'll turn around almost on the spot and start to thrive again. It doesn't help the online discussion of the game much (although those community fb pages are quite active), but if you're getting plenty of games at the store you don't need the online component quite so much


Totally agree with you. Local and Web presences are disconnected though; and I was primarily focused on trying convey why I think this forum in particular isn't that active.

Would you say the renewed focus of your local players has grown the player base though? Or has it mobilized existing players that already own WM armies. I'm genuinely curious as unless we're talking exponential growth (like 25% or more of players now active having never played WM before your interest 'surge') that would still portray a somewhat insular community state.

Activity can draw new people though, so I'm genuinely curious what your experience has been. Anecdotes are anecdotes however.. so of course neither of us can really give more than just our observations from where we sit.

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Fixture of Dakka




Achilles wrote:It's problem is it isn't growing.

People who traffic the non-official forums like this one are usually in transition from the games popular here (such as the GW brands) into something new.

Over the last several years (nothing to do with the edition change I don't think, which is more effecting their existing core of players) Warmachine has developed a reputation for being somewhat 'inaccessible' to new players and to not be a 'casual' game that can be learned in a night. The existing WM community prides itself on being a 'on the clock' Tournament community (by and large, there are of course outliers) and this narrows the amount of folks gaming in other genres that are attracted to it as a property with initial casual interest.

I've noticed even the PP forums seem to have slowed over the last few years, the majority of the activity being focused on the rules of the game, getting clarity and discussing what the best/most efficient list builds are by faction or against other power builds in the Meta.

Certainly a change from ten years ago when it was active hugely with painters, modelers, RPG fans and fan fiction writers.


It's one of the reasons why I never got into Warmahordes. After trying to put some minis together and failed, hate metal, then went onto a plastic mini with mold lines running down the center of the face, and then I needed to play like I got a pair, and wanted to play for fun, I gave up.

I thought I read somewhere that 3.0 took away the "play like you got a pair" and was more like GW with stories game play instead of just tournement game play. I wonder if that has anything to do with it, or is it mostly the imbalance of some rules that did it.

Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
Made in us
Charging Bull






I tried to start playing when this new edition came out (I never played old editions so i cant comment on that specifically). I even entered an escalation league at my local store, but in my first league game, which was supposed to be a learning league, i go one shot by a jack that used some crazy combo to do flips around my jack and one shot my caster on turn two. So i go to deploy and move once then i had already lost. I dont want to play a game where it is possible to lose before any interaction has actually taken place.

I'm not new to wargaming by any means, but i don't know another system where that kind of thing can happen. sure 40k is unbalanced, but at least it takes more than one turn for some armies to table you (sure there are exceptions).

i think that is an example of what "inaccessible" means for WMH. not bashing the game itself, if that is the level of competition you want its a great system, but i think that type of thing is where the reputation for inaccessibility is coming from.
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Yeah that is "playing like you got a pair" sadly Forcast. For some people that is fun. For me and it seems like you, it's not. Damn, I hate to say it, maybe GW is correct after all.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/09 23:25:40


Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
Made in us
Charging Bull






Forge that narrative...

also its not like I didn't "play like i had a pair" but i only got one turn of said nutsack reference playing before i was neutered...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/09 23:37:59


 
   
Made in au
Norn Queen






Davor wrote:
Yeah that is "playing like you got a pair" sadly Forcast. For some people that is fun. For me and it seems like you, it's not. Damn, I hate to say it, maybe GW is correct after all.


Thankfully there's games out there made by other companies.

The two I currently play manage to have creative and interesting randomised objectives that create a little narrative for the game while managing to be really well balanced.
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Massive Master Bot Handler






Brisbane

 Achilles wrote:

Totally agree with you. Local and Web presences are disconnected though; and I was primarily focused on trying convey why I think this forum in particular isn't that active.


Haha yeah, I realised that part way through when I had gone completely off on my tangent, but find myself getting to make so few actual posts (beyond "get back on topic you!") at the moment that I just felt like pushing through and putting my disclaimer at the end Sorry mate.

 Achilles wrote:

Would you say the renewed focus of your local players has grown the player base though? Or has it mobilized existing players that already own WM armies. I'm genuinely curious as unless we're talking exponential growth (like 25% or more of players now active having never played WM before your interest 'surge') that would still portray a somewhat insular community state.


It has had several successes. One is it has mobilised players from what was a very fractured meta. People from an hour and a half away are now regularly travelling to events around the area, whereas you used to struggle to get more than 10 because the folk from the store 45 minutes away wouldn't travel. Another is that old players (and I mean quit the game, sold their armies, etc) have come back to the table and started enjoying it again. And finally we have had new players, it hasn't been 25% of the field but of our most recent 30 player tournie I think we had 3-4 new folk, with some more of the "I'll never be able to play on clock/never enjoy doing it, I'll never attend a tournie" people deciding that the community isn't actually going to just repeatedly stomp on their crotch, and that they're welcome to attend these things and having a great time doing so ha. So the uptick in interest has several factors, just got to wait and see if there is enough from each of those things to keep it going I guess

 Achilles wrote:

Activity can draw new people though, so I'm genuinely curious what your experience has been. Anecdotes are anecdotes however.. so of course neither of us can really give more than just our observations from where we sit.


Oh for sure man, I've heard stories from other metas about it dying out completely, being held onto by 8-10 hardcore players and never any new blood, or it growing beyond what I'm seeing. You're totally right that anecdotes aren't the best way to view it, I guess I'm just super happy I'm in one of the lucky metas haha No cool youtube channels near me though sadly

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Aquatic Kamua





Sydney, Australia

 -Loki- wrote:
Anecdotally, a lot of local Warmachine players seem not too happy with the state of the game at the moment. Seems 3.0 wasn't well received.


Didn't exactly help that we've found Batman, Infinity and Malifaux in the time since though

I'll put in my 2 cents, the change into Mk3 has been horribly received, and this isn't just a local belief, as I've seen a hell of a lot of whining online about it, on 4chan, facebook and the official forums. The way they nerfed some factions (we all know who) some of which absolutely didn't need it, alongside the 'poster boy' factions not only staying relatively free of massive nerfs but getting better drove a lot of people away. There's also the errata to consider, which from a Cryx perspective fixed fairly little, and also generally that the 'fixes' did pretty much nothing.

From the perspective of coming into other games at the same time Mk3 was released, the mass imbalance issues that arose with the new edition became much larger when compared to things like Malifaux and Batman, where the "everything is usable if you know how to use it" is really clear

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Purged Thrall





FL

Without trying to get too ranty, I think that biggest problems with mk3 came from the playerbase.

Mk3 plays very similarly to mk2, and mechanics-wise, it's really just got some tweaks and streamlining. But since literally every card was rewritten, not everything plays like it did. And people seem to hate playing what feels like the old models, but not as good as it was. Things were nerfed for sure, but not as badly as people think they were. They're just stuck with mk2 glasses.

But things needed readjusting. And even if I don't like some of the changes, I applaud PP trying to balance the game without giving in to power creep, which would be the easier, safer way to change things.

There definitely still some rough spots though: there are still some over-strong models, and underpowered factions, but the community/feedback that they're implementing should help as they release new models. And they'll continue to make small changes through errata till things are more balanced.
   
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Master of the Hunt




@forcast- You are only playing with 3 or 4 pieces on a smaller than normal board the first game. Of course things can be over before engagement begins. If you play 40K with only 5 pieces I bet that you'll end up with games where both sides deploy and then the first player tables the other.
i suggest that you try a game with a small number of points (maybe 25) and a full size board. You may still be assassinated on turn 2 but it's less likely.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/10 12:16:35


 
   
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Charging Bull






Leo_the_Rat wrote:
@forcast- You are only playing with 3 or 4 pieces on a smaller than normal board the first game. Of course things can be over before engagement begins. If you play 40K with only 5 pieces I bet that you'll end up with games where both sides deploy and then the first player tables the other.
i suggest that you try a game with a small number of points (maybe 25) and a full size board. You may still be assassinated on turn 2 but it's less likely.


I 100% believe you, but all that does is reinforce the point I was trying to make. That unfortunately the game is hard to break into without intimate knowledge of what makes a good list and buying a lot of models.

I also will acknowledge that 40k has a similar problem, but 40k also has kill teams for playing with 5 models.

I don't want to start a my favorite game is better than your game argument so please don't take it that way, its just 40k is the main thing I have to compare to.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/10 13:55:56


 
   
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[DCM]
Ordinate






Baltimore, MD

 Forcast wrote:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:
@forcast- You are only playing with 3 or 4 pieces on a smaller than normal board the first game. Of course things can be over before engagement begins. If you play 40K with only 5 pieces I bet that you'll end up with games where both sides deploy and then the first player tables the other.
i suggest that you try a game with a small number of points (maybe 25) and a full size board. You may still be assassinated on turn 2 but it's less likely.


I 100% believe you, but all that does is reinforce the point I was trying to make. That unfortunately the game is hard to break into without intimate knowledge of what makes a good list and buying a lot of models.

I also will acknowledge that 40k has a similar problem, but 40k also has kill teams for playing with 5 models.

I don't want to start a my favorite game is better than your game argument so please don't take it that way, its just 40k is the main thing I have to compare to.


In literally your first game, it's about learning how to use focus/fury how to charge, model activtation, etc. It's not about learning combos and synergy, and certainly not about learning power attacks.

By games three or four, a good teacher will start to point out angles that they could use to make assassination runs.

There's no value in trying to learn a game and get one turn. That's just a waste.

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Champaign, Illinois

There does seem to be decline in people playing Warmahordes since MK3 dropped. There are local gaming groups around where I live, but not the one I play with, that quit the game entirely when MK3 hit because they didn't like the changes. There also seems to fewer events going on. Personally I have mixed feelings on MK3 myself. The faction that I want to play is Skorne which is bad shape right now. PP has at least acknowledged this however and has a big errata planed for skorne sometime this month. So right now I am in wait and see mode.

In the meantime I have picked up infinity and AOS. Infinity is everything I wanted 40k kill team to be and some.

 
   
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Master of the Hunt




 Forcast wrote:
I 100% believe you, but all that does is reinforce the point I was trying to make. That unfortunately the game is hard to break into without intimate knowledge of what makes a good list and buying a lot of models.

I also will acknowledge that 40k has a similar problem, but 40k also has kill teams for playing with 5 models.

I don't want to start a my favorite game is better than your game argument so please don't take it that way, its just 40k is the main thing I have to compare to.


I'm not taking it as anything other than a comparison. There is a version of WM/H that just uses the battlegroup (the caster and his jacks/beasts) but just like kill team you still have to know the rules and what to take.

The point I'm trying to make is that WM/H is very much like 40K for the purpose of gaming. You need to become familiar with the rules for both the models and the game before you can become proficient. You can't play 40K without knowing the rules and you won't have a lot of fun if you just randomly pick models to play. You have to know what you are doing or at least be shown how and what to play before you can really enjoy either game. Do you have to know all the synergies/tactics of all the models? No, but you will as you gain experience.

Try the game again with the outlook of just learning the rules at first and then you can have an idea of what models suit your playstyle best. But remember you're probably going to have you behind handed to you in your infant learning stage.

Good luck whichever way you go.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Davor wrote:What is wrong with Warmachine/Hordes? I come here and hardly see any new posts. If there are new posts there is 5 or less of them. I remember there use to be lots of discussion on Warmahordes. Has this game really tanked because of third edition or 3.0? If so, why? If not, what happened to all the discussions on Dakka here about Warmahordes?


The WMH side of this forum was dead for a long while prior to mk3 hitting. A lot of the discussion here was along the lines of 'getting started, need halp', rather than detailed tacticas and whatnot - the pp boards tended to soak up a lot of that.

To be honest, mk3 from my experience has divided the playerbase in a lot of ways. I think overall that mk3 is a big leap forward, and while there were errors and oversighted in the transition (gang not working not knocked down models etc), pp have done a lot to try and rectify things and I think the switch to a living rulebook and community based playtrsting and feedback, in the long run is a really good idea. I think while a lot of groups have dropped WMH, others have embraced it and grown - here, the active player pool has grown dramatically with the change over, especially compared with the last couple of years of mk2.

I will however say that what has disappointed me about mk3 most of all has been the playerbase. I expected more from us, to be honest. A lot more. Online especially. In the flesh, it's all excitement and everyone here has been enjoying the gsme, but when I look online, kind of nerdraging and whining that I see every day (and what has essentially driven me from the pp forums almost entirely) was the kind of stuff that infested other gsmes that we joined WMH to get away from in the first place. Some of it is warranted - pp missed the boat a bit with skorne, but for the most part it's gamers being whiners and being afraid of change, and gsmers refusing to be creative and get on board with exploring the game, and just wanting to stick to their same oldcrutches that will hold theirs hands and play their games for them. I feel like slapping a lot of people with mk2s page 5.


Forcast wrote:I tried to start playing when this new edition came out (I never played old editions so i cant comment on that specifically). I even entered an escalation league at my local store, but in my first league game, which was supposed to be a learning league, i go one shot by a jack that used some crazy combo to do flips around my jack and one shot my caster on turn two. So i go to deploy and move once then i had already lost. I dont want to play a game where it is possible to lose before any interaction has actually taken place.

I'm not new to wargaming by any means, but i don't know another system where that kind of thing can happen. sure 40k is unbalanced, but at least it takes more than one turn for some armies to table you (sure there are exceptions).


So the take home message from this should be that you learned the first golden rule of 'keep your caster safe'. You lost, essentially because you played badly. It happens. You'll know for next time, and you won't ever let anyone get you with a cheeky move like thst again.You can read your cards, and you can read the other persons cards. It's an open information game. Everything is available to you. Here's the thing. WMH is a game where you learn by being beaten over the head with things. Especially when you start. It's the ultimate school of hard knocks. That's how you earn your wings. WMH is a game with a very high learning curve, and that is one of the best features of it, if you ask me. It means when you are new, and when there are a lot of things to learn, and lots of moving parts, you will lose to more experienced players. Often, you will never see it coming. But as you play, and as you get used to it, and gain experience yourself, things will start to click, and you will see the angles and vectors and combos and plays almost by instinct, and not just yours, but of your opponents. Your knowledge of the game, and your ability to apply it and put knowledge into practice are crucial. Know yourself well and know your enemy better. when you win at WMH, you will have earned it. And trust me, those first wins are hugely rewarding. .

In my opinion WMH is a great game. I get it though it's not for everyone. That's ok too. For what it's worth, it's the game that made me fall in love with wargaming again. I genuinely would hope you stick with it and would give you every encouragement I can to do so. If you're having problems, feel free to pm or to ask here and I'll do my best to help.

greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
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Shangri-LA

Deadnight wrote:
So the take home message from this should be that you learned the first golden rule of 'keep your caster safe'. You lost, essentially because you played badly. It happens. You'll know for next time, and you won't ever let anyone get you with a cheeky move like thst again.You can read your cards, and you can read the other persons cards. It's an open information game. Everything is available to you. Here's the thing. WMH is a game where you learn by being beaten over the head with things. Especially when you start. It's the ultimate school of hard knocks. That's how you earn your wings. WMH is a game with a very high learning curve, and that is one of the best features of it, if you ask me. It means when you are new, and when there are a lot of things to learn, and lots of moving parts, you will lose to more experienced players. Often, you will never see it coming. But as you play, and as you get used to it, and gain experience yourself, things will start to click, and you will see the angles and vectors and combos and plays almost by instinct, and not just yours, but of your opponents. Your knowledge of the game, and your ability to apply it and put knowledge into practice are crucial. Know yourself well and know your enemy better. when you win at WMH, you will have earned it. And trust me, those first wins are hugely rewarding. .


I think this post sums up what "turns people off" of WMH fairly nicely.

"You lost, essentially because you played badly" is a no gak, Sherlock statement to make to a guy who got curb stomped on his first game. Of course he played "badly" because he had never played before. The fact that this was a learning league intended to draw in new players makes the situation worse, because it had the opposite effect of what the organizer intended - it turned a player off from WMH.


"Know yourself well and know your enemy better" is a great slogan but becomes a bitch when you are living it as your hobby. I dropped out of WMH for various reasons, but one of them was the exhaustion I experienced keeping up with the game. After a while I didn't want to have to bring my A-game every single time I played. Blame it on a particular meta, sure, but I've played with various groups at various stores (all different metas) and the experience was roughly the same among all of them: people played for blood and the game stopped being fun.

Everything that you are citing in your post is true, the more you play the more the game opens up and begins to make sense. But why would someone invest that energy into the game in the first place? What incentive is there, especially when the first impression is a negative one? Not everyone wants an uphill climb, with lumps taken, in order to have fun. WMH is supposed to be a game, but it is often treated like enrollment into a boot camp with dice.

"It's the ultimate school of hard knocks." Woo! Sign me up! That sounds like a great way to kill a few hours a week when I am trying to relax and not think about the real-world issues plaguing my life. Nope, that isn't exactly a great selling point for a newbie.


   
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FL

Ok, to try and say that in a more positive way:

There are a ton of moving parts, even in a battlebox game. On your own, the best thing you can do is read your cards in depth, and see how your caster can protect, deliver, or enhance what you've got. And read the rules and special rules you've got.

When you play someone else, pay close attention to their caster: you want to see what spells they have, and what their feat is. Same as noting what your caster can do for your guys, you can at least get a rough idea of what your opponent wants to do.

From there (in battlebox specifically), your goals are 1) attrition (can I kill my opponents heavy hitters) and 2) assassination (are they open, can I get something there, what are the chances). Those two things scale up to full games, while adding in scenario before assassination.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

I think this post sums up what "turns people off" of WMH fairly nicely.


First up, let me apologise if my original reply came off as terse – I had a hell of a lot of stuff going on last night and that certainly was not the intention.

Secondly, for what its worth,I do get it. I can see why people get turned off by some games and not by others. I get it that some people don’t like Warmachine (or any other game, for that matter). Amongst my close friends, I’m the only WMH player (they generally play historicals and flames of war). This is not necessarily a bad thing. However, I also believe that ‘the nature of the game’ turning someone off can be resolved as much by that person bringing a change of perception to the table top too. And I regard doing this as a good thing in general. I also think it’s important to bring the right attitude to a game. I play multiple systems, but crucially, I play with some very different groups and more than playing multiple systems, I am happy to come to games with multiple approaches. 2 of my favourite 3 games are Infinity and Warmachine. I like them for the exact reasons that you seemingly don’t. Neither of us is wrong here. My other favourite game is GW’s Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game and I like it for all the opposite reasons to why I like Infinity and Warmachine – it’s a simple, straight forward, immediately intuitive and elegant system that is severely underappreciated and under rated in my view.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

"You lost, essentially because you played badly" is a no gak, Sherlock statement to make to a guy who got curb stomped on his first game. Of course he played "badly" because he had never played before. The fact that this was a learning league intended to draw in new players makes the situation worse, because it had the opposite effect of what the organizer intended - it turned a player off from WMH.


It was meant as a simple point of reference – ‘you lost. So what? Its no big deal’. I’m guessing that the internet and tone did its thing again here as pure text is a tough medium to convey nuance. Ultimately though, I look to Page 5. Be magnanimous in victory. Be valiant in defeat, and come back stronger. It turned a player off, as you say, and that’s a shame, but I personally don’t see a loss here as a reason to leave a game overall. Bring a different perception here, as I mentioned previously and it’s no longer something to turn you off of a game.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

"Know yourself well and know your enemy better" is a great slogan but becomes a bitch when you are living it as your hobby. I dropped out of WMH for various reasons, but one of them was the exhaustion I experienced keeping up with the game. After a while I didn't want to have to bring my A-game every single time I played. Blame it on a particular meta, sure, but I've played with various groups at various stores (all different metas) and the experience was roughly the same among all of them: people played for blood and the game stopped being fun.


*Nods head*. I feel the pain man! I empathise, and understand exactly where you are coming from here. I burned out of WMH mk2 a few years back for the same reasons as you. Bringing your A-game to the table constantly, as you say, and chasing those top tables is exhausting, time consuming and it ultimately can lead to burn-out. I had to walk away from WMH for about a year when it hit me. For what its worth, though, life intervened and thankfully this doesn’t need to really apply any more - at a masters tournament a few years ago I got talking with a few guys who were, like me, a bit older, and like me, had lots of ‘life stuff’ happening and they couldn’t warmachine-fu 24/7 any more. And looking at the sharks in the room at the top tables who could warmachine all day every day, to be honest, none of us really wanted to play at that level and intensity any more. So we traded numbers, got together and rebuilt a community that had been a bit dead at the time. General attitude was ‘good clean, tight games in terms of ‘accuracy’. But Leave the power builds, the A-game and ‘playing for blood’ at home, we’re here to relax, catch up with mates and roll some dice’. Its ‘all day gaming’ instead of tournaments. And its done no end of wonders for making the game (and us!) feel energised and refreshed and enthusiastic about the game. Even if we get assassinated on the top of turn 2 (happened to me on the bottom of turn 1! Note: don’t run Vlad3 forward into Madrak2 and Northkin fire eaters!) we just re-set and play again. Take home message: not all groups are out for blood. I appreciate and respect your point of view but personally feel that knowing your game (ie knowing your army’s abilities and also knowing your opponents) and knowing what the game is capable of is not necessarily synonymous with being out for blood, ‘living it as your hobby’ or the game not being fun. Maybe it’s worth putting up a flag and looking for like minded people to get involved with? In my experience, the right people with the right attitude make all the difference.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

Everything that you are citing in your post is true, the more you play the more the game opens up and begins to make sense. But why would someone invest that energy into the game in the first place? What incentive is there, especially when the first impression is a negative one? Not everyone wants an uphill climb, with lumps taken, in order to have fun. WMH is supposed to be a game, but it is often treated like enrollment into a boot camp with dice.


Why would someone invest that energy in a game? As you say, not everyone wants an uphill climb, but here is where a change of perception comes into play. Climbing mountains is immensely enjoyable – in real life and figuratively speaking. Journey. Reward. Until I played warmachine, I personally didn’t realise how much fun ‘gitting good’ and the ‘competitive scene’ could be, and how much I enjoyed that uphill climb. I wanted to master it, not just ‘play a game’. It’s for the same reason I run marathons. The more effort you put in, the more reward you get out. I generally find more ‘reward’ and ‘meaning’ from a game I have invested that time and effort into ‘pushing myself’ and improving my own abilities. I find it empowering to have gone through those knocks and come out the other side, better and stronger. And this isn’t just a game thing – it’s something I’ve learned to appreciate in all aspects of my life.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

"It's the ultimate school of hard knocks." Woo! Sign me up! That sounds like a great way to kill a few hours a week when I am trying to relax and not think about the real-world issues plaguing my life. http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/baf5f2e54c6b17d5c5d39aecadfa1272.gifNope, that isn't exactly a great selling point for a newbie.


Oh, and you speak for all newbies then, do you? With the greatest of respect, since I know you don’t mean it like that (internet and tone is my guess), but please don’t think you speak on behalf of ‘newbies’ or that you can claim to know what a great selling point is for them. What you see as a great selling point (and yes, likewise what I see as a great selling point) are hugely coloured by our own biases and points of view, and neither is an ‘objective metric’. Surely, it ultimately depends on the person though? For example, it sure sounds like a great way to kill a few hours a week when I am trying to relax and not think about real-world issues! And I know a lot of folks drawn to WMH for the exact same reason. Heck, once upon a time, everybody who plays WMH was a ‘newbie’ to WMH and we were all drawn there. Plenty stayed, which does imply that yes, it is a great selling point and enough to draw in a community.

Again, overall, it all depends on what you like! I used to do a bit of boxing. Hard knocks was literally what I did to relax! Same with those 10 or 20 mile cross country obstacle races. (Some at night and over bloody mountains. And it was probably my blood too! Note: check your head torch that its batteries work before setting off!). it’s a rush. Same thing in WMH. The fast paced, high-octane ‘one mistake and you’re done’ knife edge level of ‘intensity’ of the was one of the things that drew me to WMH. And it was something I very much didn’t appreciate before, but learned to appreciate the more I played the game, and it is something I am quite thankful for experiencing as it bled over into allowing me to learn to appreciate a lot of the finer points of sport and the joys of pushing my own limits. WMH is the table top version of a ‘white knuckle ride’. And that ‘white knuckle ride’ can be quite a thrill. (and also, turn 2 assassinations hurt a lot less than being punched in the face and getting chipped teeth! Note: learn to duck!)

Don’t get me wrong – I fully appreciate the value of killing a few hours relaxing at a nice sedate pace – its what I do with my mates every Friday when we do home brewed historicals and flames of war. Just easy going, lots of chat, relaxing after a week of work and no intension whatsoever of ‘pushing’ the games. Then again, as enjoyable as a nice sedate, easy going night of wargames can be (and the older I get, the more I seem to appreciate this approach), there is also a place to have escapism and enjoyment from a tense, intense, knuckle-biting game of WMH. I’m not sure where you stand here but for what its worth, I appreciate both approaches greatly.


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in ca
Martial Arts SAS







Deadnight wrote:


In my opinion WMH is a great game. I get it though it's not for everyone. That's ok too. For what it's worth, it's the game that made me fall in love with wargaming again. I genuinely would hope you stick with it and would give you every encouragement I can to do so. If you're having problems, feel free to pm or to ask here and I'll do my best to help.


I think perhaps the real question is;

If you're a business and you're trying to increase the amount of customers you have in the right demographic...

(Let's assume that in this case they're looking for folks with a gaming hobby interest that are employed with $100-500 monthly of disposable income that they can spend on leisure pursuits)

...how do you position your product from an accessibility point of view to attract the largest number of those people in order for your sales to grow?


So.. who are those people?

Are they employed in time intensive positions? How much free time/energy do the majority want to spend on their hobbies? How much actual free time do they have? What component of what you sell are they going to initially be attracted to (the physical properties or metaphysical properties)?

Probably not questions that can be answered in this thread through our anecdotes, but if by your own comments your personal opinion is 'it isn't for everyone'... could that be having an impact on its growth market potential?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/11 14:11:40


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