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A guy and I were talking about a possible modification to Haywire and Grav. These two rules have made vehicles hard to use and heavily influenced weapon and unit selections in their respective armies. What would you think if Haywire were changed a bit?
Haywire: Instead of rolling for armor penetration with a weapon with this special rule, instead roll a d6.
- 1: Apply the Crew Shaken result from the vehicle damage table. The vehicle does not lose Hull Points from this damage.
- 2-5: Roll 1d6 on the vehicle damage table and apply the result. The vehicle does not lose Hull Points from this damage.
- 6: Roll 2d6 on the vehicle damage table and choose which result you prefer. The vehicle does not lose Hull Points from this damage.
Graviton weapons are mostly fine, but the guns are too cheap for the rate of fire. We considered changing the wording on the 6 result to..
"When firing against a vehicle, roll a D6 for each hit. If any of the results are a 6, the target is immobilized and loses a single Hull Point. This has no effect on buildings."
Reasoning: These weapons are heads and tails above others in terms of cost to efficiency. Feels like they should be toned down.
For disclosure, I play Renegades and Heretics zombies. Neither of these rules has bias from me one way or another. Grav would be fine if it wasn't so cheap and available imo.
A guy and I were talking about a possible modification to Haywire and Grav. These two rules have made vehicles hard to use and heavily influenced weapon and unit selections in their respective armies. What would you think if Haywire were changed a bit?
Haywire: Instead of rolling for armor penetration with a weapon with this special rule, instead roll a d6.
- 1: Apply the Crew Shaken result from the vehicle damage table. The vehicle does not lose Hull Points from this damage.
- 2-5: Roll 1d6 on the vehicle damage table and apply the result. The vehicle does not lose Hull Points from this damage.
- 6: Roll 2d6 on the vehicle damage table and choose which result you prefer. The vehicle does not lose Hull Points from this damage.
Graviton weapons are mostly fine, but the guns are too cheap for the rate of fire. We considered changing the wording on the 6 result to..
"When firing against a vehicle, roll a D6 for each hit. If any of the results are a 6, the target is immobilized and loses a single Hull Point. This has no effect on buildings."
Reasoning: These weapons are heads and tails above others in terms of cost to efficiency. Feels like they should be toned down.
For disclosure, I play Renegades and Heretics zombies. Neither of these rules has bias from me one way or another. Grav would be fine if it wasn't so cheap and available imo.
Haywire is one of the only ways nids can hurt av 13+. You want to remove nids ability to do any damage to vehicles?
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
You need to attack the source of the actual problem.
The issue is not that haywire is some crazy OP weapon type. It's that 1 army that SHOULD have lots of it and 1 army that maybe shouldn't have as much have lots of it. In the case of admech, it's not an issue. If anyone should cheaply and efficiently be taking apart armor it's them.
In the case of marines I cannot think of any list ever where marines bring haywire over grav. So... a non issue.
Basically, grav is a issue, haywire is not. Grav is a tool of a very small selection of the armys in the game. Haywire is a tool for almost every army in the game, and for some armys the only specialist tool they have.
Fix the correct issues instead of making new problems.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/13 20:15:22
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Lance845 wrote: You need to attack the source of the actual problem.
The issue is not that haywire is some crazy OP weapon type. It's that 1 army that SHOULD have lots of it and 1 army that maybe shouldn't have as much have lots of it. In the case of admech, it's not an issue. If anyone should cheaply and efficiently be taking apart armor it's them.
In the case of marines I cannot think of any list ever where marines bring haywire over grav. So... a non issue.
Basically, grav is a issue, haywire is not. Grav is a tool of a very small selection of the armys in the game. Haywire is a tool for almost every army in the game, and for some armys the only specialist tool they have.
Fix the correct issues instead of making new problems.
That's certainly a valid opinion, but still one I disagree with. With the way allies work, Haywire is everywhere, especially with allied detachments and formations bringing it to the imperium or xenos in spades. As a rule, it's too strong, imo, because it is far too reliable. Str 6 shooting is fairly affordable across all armies and fairly abundant. It usually has a 50 or 75% chance to hit, then still needs a 5 or better to make hull points worth of impact on the most common AV, 11.
Haywire just needs to hit, usually on 2's with admech or 3's with xenos, then a 2+ to make a tangible effect.
You're not proposing to lower haywire's reliability, but to remove its potential to do any damage, that's a huge nerf.
I would also like a change to haywire, but to transform it into some type of "vehicle poison", where you always glance on the same number, just like poison on models with a toughness.
You could keep a very strong haywire like the one we have today (which would be Haywire (2+) ) on some weapons, or decrease the potency of certain weapons by changing them to Haywire (4+), or anything.
Maybe still cause a pen on a roll of 6 (except for Haywire (6+) that can't pen).
fresus wrote: You're not proposing to lower haywire's reliability, but to remove its potential to do any damage, that's a huge nerf.
I would also like a change to haywire, but to transform it into some type of "vehicle poison", where you always glance on the same number, just like poison on models with a toughness. You could keep a very strong haywire like the one we have today (which would be Haywire (2+) ) on some weapons, or decrease the potency of certain weapons by changing them to Haywire (4+), or anything. Maybe still cause a pen on a roll of 6 (except for Haywire (6+) that can't pen).
I was doing my best to keep it within it's current operating structure to some extent, without re-writing everything about the rule, with a tradeoff to change it's power band. Rather than let it effortlessly hull out vehicles, it can greatly impair them. (And at a minimum shakes them)
So by removing the HP, I tried adding in a damage result on every roll of the die. It still takes vehicles out of the game, in a fashion. Admittedly, it's a huge nerf when considering super-heavies, who ignore everything but expoding results.
Although, perhaps if it worked on a 4+ than a 2+ that would be far more simple, and direct, of a pull back. I appreciate your discussion! How do you feel about the grav rules?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/13 22:26:33
I find this proposition funny. You mean to say my Dark Eldar with haywire options (some of our only valid anti-tank btw) is OP and needs a nerf. Really?! In a game where a leman russ can take camo netting, hide behind a barricade and get night fight to get a 2+ cover save you think haywire squads which come with 4 haywire for 120 pts on a fragile squad and will be absolutely worthless against an army without vehicles is OP. You seriously need to play dark eldar and understand the ridiculousness of that statement. Also considering dealing with super-heavies which take absolutely no vehicle damage besides hull points and D3 wounds this would absolutely neuter dark eldar's ability to handle those vehicles so nice job giving us far less good options for facing super heavies.
Considering how few vehicles i face and how much cover they can receive i'm often not taking haywire anyway as all too often it'll be absolutely worthless. Unless somebody wants to be 'That Guy' and take a super heavy in a fairly small game haywire often sucks. If your rules went through i'd never take haywire ever. There would be no point.
If anything haywire (for dark eldar anyway) needs a buff so that if i'm fighting a non-vehicle army it can still be worthwhile. Make it do damage against monstrous creatures or something. Honestly that's the kind of game we're in nowadays anyway and those stupid no vehicle tau lists with riptides and stormsurge up the butt won't be hurt by haywire in the least.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/13 22:44:39
flamingkillamajig wrote: I find this proposition funny. You mean to say my Dark Eldar with haywire options (some of our only valid anti-tank btw) is OP and needs a nerf. Really?! In a game where a leman russ can take camo netting, hide behind a barricade and get night fight to get a 2+ cover save you think haywire squads which come with 4 haywire for 120 pts on a fragile squad and will be absolutely worthless against an army without vehicles is OP. You seriously need to play dark eldar and understand the ridiculousness of that statement. Also considering dealing with super-heavies which take absolutely no vehicle damage besides hull points and D3 wounds this would absolutely neuter dark eldar's ability to handle those vehicles so nice job giving us far less good options for facing super heavies.
Haha, chill out!
I haven't done anything of the sort, it's just a chat about the specials rules that bother me I guess. Dark Lances should probably be 10 pt weapons, Dark Eldar would suffer from a nerf to haywire, but they should have been given other options by GW.
- Armies with no other reliable anti-vehicle would be seriously hampered vs Superheavies. -Dark Eldar, who don't have as much Str 6/8/D as regular Eldar would be in trouble.
Discussion counterpoint: The fact that haywire would very reliably strip tanks of all their weapons doesn't matter when considering whether or not haywire would still be viable?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/13 22:48:21
JNAProductions wrote: Very reliably... That's an exaggeration if ever I saw one. You have a 1/6 chance (11/36 if you roll a 6) of stripping a gun.
I can't think of many times I've been hit with only one haywire effect at a time? Usually 3/5 grenades will hit, 4/6 haywire shots land, etc.
So while each roll might be 1/6, in bulk, the odds are good.
Skitarii Vanguard-Arc Rifles, 3 in a squad of 10. 24" rapid fire guns.
To strip, let's say, a Leman Russ with a Punisher Cannon, hull-mounted heavy bolter, and two heavy bolter sponsons, of its guns, we need, on average...
29.62 shots at BS 5.
Or 5 entire squads of 10 strong Vanguard with three Arc Rifles each all in rapid fire range and popping a Doctrina.
That's 725 points, by the way.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/14 03:30:40
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
JNAProductions wrote: Very reliably... That's an exaggeration if ever I saw one. You have a 1/6 chance (11/36 if you roll a 6) of stripping a gun.
I can't think of many times I've been hit with only one haywire effect at a time? Usually 3/5 grenades will hit, 4/6 haywire shots land, etc.
So while each roll might be 1/6, in bulk, the odds are good.
Skitarii Vanguard-Arc Rifles, 3 in a squad of 10. 24" rapid fire guns.
To strip, let's say, a Leman Russ with a Punisher Cannon, hull-mounted heavy bolter, and two heavy bolter sponsons, of its guns, we need, on average...
29.62 shots at BS 5.
Or 5 entire squads of 10 strong Vanguard with three Arc Rifles each all in rapid fire range and popping a Doctrina.
That's 725 points, by the way.
Doesn't this make the assumption that every volley in a shooting phase should completely eliminate a tank from the game in one go? That's kind of my whole issue with haywire and grav. It's so good that the thought of attrition of a vehicle has been completely eliminated and the expectation is that one unit with a few points in upgrades should reliably every time hull out a vehicle of any points cost or else it's "useless."
That's an escalation of power that in my own opinion I think the game could do without. That same punisher tank is going to cost 300 points, fire it's whole load, and kill a couple of marines.
Punisher Tank is under 200, even with HB sponsons.
And it fires 29 shots-29/2 hit, 58/6 (29/3) wound, and 29/9 Marines die, or just over 3.
And yes, I expect 745 points worth of anti-vehicle to, I dunno. Actually kill tanks? Especially if they somehow manage to get in RAPID-FIRE range without any casualties! If we expect this to happen at 24 inches, it takes 10 squads to cripple a Russ a turn, or 1450 points.
1450 points should be able to take out more than one tank a turn.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
And it fires 29 shots-29/2 hit, 58/6 (29/3) wound, and 29/9 Marines die, or just over 3.
And yes, I expect 745 points worth of anti-vehicle to, I dunno. Actually kill tanks? Especially if they somehow manage to get in RAPID-FIRE range without any casualties! If we expect this to happen at 24 inches, it takes 10 squads to cripple a Russ a turn, or 1450 points.
1450 points should be able to take out more than one tank a turn.
Sorry, 300 was a typo. I was rounding to 200.
Your example though, with regular haywire rules? Even 1 or 2 squads is going to cook said tank.
145/270 points of vanguard with BS4 before doctrines are going to fire their 3 or 6 haywire shots and likely hull a tank in one volley. It's also disingenuous to say it requires 1450 points for success in the above imaginary rules. Even if just one squad shot, the Russ is likely to be stunned, or shaken , possibly immobilized or a random weapon gone.
I might be over-stating the issue, but I think haywire is far too cheap and automatic.
JNAProductions wrote: Very reliably... That's an exaggeration if ever I saw one. You have a 1/6 chance (11/36 if you roll a 6) of stripping a gun.
I can't think of many times I've been hit with only one haywire effect at a time? Usually 3/5 grenades will hit, 4/6 haywire shots land, etc.
So while each roll might be 1/6, in bulk, the odds are good.
Skitarii Vanguard-Arc Rifles, 3 in a squad of 10. 24" rapid fire guns.
To strip, let's say, a Leman Russ with a Punisher Cannon, hull-mounted heavy bolter, and two heavy bolter sponsons, of its guns, we need, on average...
29.62 shots at BS 5.
Or 5 entire squads of 10 strong Vanguard with three Arc Rifles each all in rapid fire range and popping a Doctrina.
That's 725 points, by the way.
Why is the anti-vehicle expected to be so efficient that it's a flawless kill in a single phase every time or it's worthless?
It has to because it costs me 120 pts for a 4 man unit with weapons that are 1 shot regardless of range (i'm pretty sure they're assault weapons for dark eldar) at 24" range and they are so fragile that they might only get one or two turns of shooting before they are vaporized. That is why they need to kill about a tank with just one squad esp. considering said tanks can usually get insane cover or even invulnerable saves. The pitiful part of this is that even at it's specific job (which AT is the only job haywire can do) sometimes melee AT is just better as it hits rear armor and goes through cover anyway. It also at most needs 3's to hit. Like do you even understand what you're proposing to do to haywire here?
I posed the question if it's even worth taking haywire as dark eldar's hardest match-ups (tau, eldar, marines, etc.) often don't use vehicles and if they do it's usually drop pods which already do their job when they come in. The point of me asking if it was even worth taking haywire was that you'd often sink 240 pts or more in a 2,000 pts or smaller game only to face no vehicles and have them be free points for the enemy. Honestly after making the thread i came away with the impression haywire wasn't that good. It is far too specific in its role to be good (at least in 7th edition). The only one time it might be good is when you face a super heavy tank or knight and even then it might not be enough.
And it fires 29 shots-29/2 hit, 58/6 (29/3) wound, and 29/9 Marines die, or just over 3.
And yes, I expect 745 points worth of anti-vehicle to, I dunno. Actually kill tanks? Especially if they somehow manage to get in RAPID-FIRE range without any casualties! If we expect this to happen at 24 inches, it takes 10 squads to cripple a Russ a turn, or 1450 points.
1450 points should be able to take out more than one tank a turn.
145/270 points of vanguard with BS4 before doctrines are going to fire their 3 or 6 haywire shots and likely hull a tank in one volley. It's also disingenuous to say it requires 1450 points for success in the above imaginary rules. Even if just one squad shot, the Russ is likely to be stunned, or shaken , possibly immobilized or a random weapon gone.
I might be over-stating the issue, but I think haywire is far too cheap and automatic.
And that's when you take away the entire relevance of haywire. I'll admit doing hull point damage isn't always thrilling but haywire is king for facing super-heavies which take no vehicle damage besides removing hull points unless they suffer vehicle destruction which only results in d3 hull points going away. It is the most effective way to deal with a super-heavy for dark eldar who have no super heavies of their own.
You are nerfing everybody including weak to middle tier factions like dark eldar just because eldar and such are OP. Understand who needs a nerf and who doesn't for a second.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/14 09:54:12
Lance845 wrote: You need to attack the source of the actual problem.
The issue is not that haywire is some crazy OP weapon type. It's that 1 army that SHOULD have lots of it and 1 army that maybe shouldn't have as much have lots of it. In the case of admech, it's not an issue. If anyone should cheaply and efficiently be taking apart armor it's them.
In the case of marines I cannot think of any list ever where marines bring haywire over grav. So... a non issue.
Basically, grav is a issue, haywire is not. Grav is a tool of a very small selection of the armys in the game. Haywire is a tool for almost every army in the game, and for some armys the only specialist tool they have.
Fix the correct issues instead of making new problems.
That's certainly a valid opinion, but still one I disagree with. With the way allies work, Haywire is everywhere, especially with allied detachments and formations bringing it to the imperium or xenos in spades. As a rule, it's too strong, imo, because it is far too reliable. Str 6 shooting is fairly affordable across all armies and fairly abundant. It usually has a 50 or 75% chance to hit, then still needs a 5 or better to make hull points worth of impact on the most common AV, 11.
Haywire just needs to hit, usually on 2's with admech or 3's with xenos, then a 2+ to make a tangible effect.
haywire is also generally 1 shot per model and str 5 or less vs anything unarmored. many str 5+ weapons have more than 1 shot per gun and are equally reliable against all targets.
more shots is always better then less by a very large margin.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
JNAProductions wrote: Very reliably... That's an exaggeration if ever I saw one. You have a 1/6 chance (11/36 if you roll a 6) of stripping a gun.
I can't think of many times I've been hit with only one haywire effect at a time? Usually 3/5 grenades will hit, 4/6 haywire shots land, etc.
So while each roll might be 1/6, in bulk, the odds are good.
Skitarii Vanguard-Arc Rifles, 3 in a squad of 10. 24" rapid fire guns.
To strip, let's say, a Leman Russ with a Punisher Cannon, hull-mounted heavy bolter, and two heavy bolter sponsons, of its guns, we need, on average...
29.62 shots at BS 5.
Or 5 entire squads of 10 strong Vanguard with three Arc Rifles each all in rapid fire range and popping a Doctrina.
That's 725 points, by the way.
Why is the anti-vehicle expected to be so efficient that it's a flawless kill in a single phase every time or it's worthless?
It has to because it costs me 120 pts for a 4 man unit with weapons that are 1 shot regardless of range (i'm pretty sure they're assault weapons for dark eldar) at 24" range and they are so fragile that they might only get one or two turns of shooting before they are vaporized. That is why they need to kill about a tank with just one squad esp. considering said tanks can usually get insane cover or even invulnerable saves. The pitiful part of this is that even at it's specific job (which AT is the only job haywire can do) sometimes melee AT is just better as it hits rear armor and goes through cover anyway. It also at most needs 3's to hit. Like do you even understand what you're proposing to do to haywire here?
I posed the question if it's even worth taking haywire as dark eldar's hardest match-ups (tau, eldar, marines, etc.) often don't use vehicles and if they do it's usually drop pods which already do their job when they come in. The point of me asking if it was even worth taking haywire was that you'd often sink 240 pts or more in a 2,000 pts or smaller game only to face no vehicles and have them be free points for the enemy. Honestly after making the thread i came away with the impression haywire wasn't that good. It is far too specific in its role to be good (at least in 7th edition). The only one time it might be good is when you face a super heavy tank or knight and even then it might not be enough.
And it fires 29 shots-29/2 hit, 58/6 (29/3) wound, and 29/9 Marines die, or just over 3.
And yes, I expect 745 points worth of anti-vehicle to, I dunno. Actually kill tanks? Especially if they somehow manage to get in RAPID-FIRE range without any casualties! If we expect this to happen at 24 inches, it takes 10 squads to cripple a Russ a turn, or 1450 points.
1450 points should be able to take out more than one tank a turn.
145/270 points of vanguard with BS4 before doctrines are going to fire their 3 or 6 haywire shots and likely hull a tank in one volley. It's also disingenuous to say it requires 1450 points for success in the above imaginary rules. Even if just one squad shot, the Russ is likely to be stunned, or shaken , possibly immobilized or a random weapon gone.
I might be over-stating the issue, but I think haywire is far too cheap and automatic.
And that's when you take away the entire relevance of haywire. I'll admit doing hull point damage isn't always thrilling but haywire is king for facing super-heavies which take no vehicle damage besides removing hull points unless they suffer vehicle destruction which only results in d3 hull points going away. It is the most effective way to deal with a super-heavy for dark eldar who have no super heavies of their own.
You are nerfing everybody including weak to middle tier factions like dark eldar just because eldar and such are OP. Understand who needs a nerf and who doesn't for a second.
Please remember I'm not nerfing anyone, I'm talking about haywire. This isn't something to be done at a store or for a tournament, it's just a thought about the rules for grav and haywire.
The question I'd ask then.
If Eldar had access to cheap lances, melta, tank hunters or gave them Str 8 power fist or thunderhammer equivilants, so that nerfing the rule wasn't nerfing this specific faction, how would you feel about it?
Lance845 wrote: You need to attack the source of the actual problem.
The issue is not that haywire is some crazy OP weapon type. It's that 1 army that SHOULD have lots of it and 1 army that maybe shouldn't have as much have lots of it. In the case of admech, it's not an issue. If anyone should cheaply and efficiently be taking apart armor it's them.
In the case of marines I cannot think of any list ever where marines bring haywire over grav. So... a non issue.
Basically, grav is a issue, haywire is not. Grav is a tool of a very small selection of the armys in the game. Haywire is a tool for almost every army in the game, and for some armys the only specialist tool they have.
Fix the correct issues instead of making new problems.
That's certainly a valid opinion, but still one I disagree with. With the way allies work, Haywire is everywhere, especially with allied detachments and formations bringing it to the imperium or xenos in spades. As a rule, it's too strong, imo, because it is far too reliable. Str 6 shooting is fairly affordable across all armies and fairly abundant. It usually has a 50 or 75% chance to hit, then still needs a 5 or better to make hull points worth of impact on the most common AV, 11.
Haywire just needs to hit, usually on 2's with admech or 3's with xenos, then a 2+ to make a tangible effect.
haywire is also generally 1 shot per model and str 5 or less vs anything unarmored. many str 5+ weapons have more than 1 shot per gun and are equally reliable against all targets.
more shots is always better then less by a very large margin.
This part is true. My army pretty much laughs at both of these rules because I built it hating how good they are. In that case, these are wasted points.But that's typical risk isn't it? If I bring heavy weapons teams and missiles vs a list with no tanks, those points are wasted too.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/14 15:17:56
The issue with this fix is that it's far too far in the nerfing direction. Haywire is pretty powerful-but this makes it nigh-useless.
You either need to fire at the SAME TANK round after round to keep it neutered, or pour a ridiculous number of shots into it to permanently silence it, and even then, if it's on an objective, you still need something else to destroy it.
In addition, a simple tank squadron is now pretty heavily resistant to haywire, since you cannot destroy the frontmost tank, only cripple it. So you could fire 200 haywire shots into a squad of three dreadnoughts and only touch the front one.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
