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This is something that's bugged me since I think 3rd edition, though I don't recall what the costing was like earlier, but most standard shooty Terminator squads come with a sergeant who only has a power weapon and no improved stats, yet is apparently priced the same as the regular terminators with power fists.

So is it just me, or should these squads really be 10 points cheaper?

I know it would mean that lightning claws and thunder hammer upgrades may need to be more expensive for the sergeant on those units that can take them (such as Deathwing squads), but it just seems weird that he gets less yet costs the same. Being a Character is kind of a mixed blessing, and while striking at Initiative is a slight advantage, it's 10 points less valuable than double strength and AP2 according to the wargear list.

Maybe 10 points isn't much to quibble over, but terminators are over-costed as it is, so I'm interested in knowing what people think about what a terminator sergeant should actually cost in these squads?

2+ armor on infantry is almost impossible to properly cost as the game stands right now.

I think a 10 point reduction would be fine. Terminators are overcosted right now.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I think a 10 point reduction would be fine. Terminators are overcosted right now.

Well take a look at a SM 14ppm versus a terminator 35ppm

Your going from a 3+ save to a 2+ Save with a 5++ built in, AND you are given a Powerfist which usually costs 25pts. You are also gaining +1 attacks in CC. The sergeant goes from 14ppm with 3+ armor bolt pistol and CCW to 35ppm with a Powersword and Stormbolter and 2+ armor. So the question then becomes what is all of that really worth? I think the Sgt should come standard wth a Powerfirst and then adjust points costs from there. IE if you want to downgrade to a Powersword you can take -5pts off. But 10pts off the Sgt just because he comes stock with a Power Sword instead of a Fist is just to much.

I know you all hate comparisons with orks but to bad

Meganobz are 5pts per model more expensive, don't have a 5++, The difference is they have 2Wounds instead of 1 and 1 more attack base. Personally I think both Terminators and meganobz are over priced. Both should be 30ppm base.

So what you're saying is you agree, and MANZ have similar issues? Okay.

They just need to fix the 2+ save mechanic, it's not nearly effective enough to represent the toughest armor in the galaxy (that includes other units with 2+ saves but only T4 as well)

 JNAProductions wrote:
So what you're saying is you agree, and MANZ have similar issues? Okay.

Kind of. At the moment a straight 10pt drop wouldn't do much to solve the problem. A 5pt drop in price across the board for terminators AND the Sgt coming standard with a PF would solve some problems then either make the Sword a -5pt downgrade or just say "Hey they are good enough" and take a Powersword as a FREE upgrade. Trust me, as an Ork player I am a lot more scared of a powersword then I am of a Powerfist Those challenges against anyone with AP1-4 scare the hell out of me because at best my HQs and Sgts have a 4+ unless I happen to be running a MegaBoss which is rare for me.

Well, I guess part of the issue is that, point for point, Terminators are WORSE against bolters than Tac Marines are. Each bolter shot kills 1.56 points of Tac Marines (2/3 hit, 1/3 wound, 1/9 through the armour, for 14/9 points), but kills 1.94 points of Terminators (2/3 hit, 1/3 wound, 1/18 through the save, for 35/18).

 JNAProductions wrote:
Well, I guess part of the issue is that, point for point, Terminators are WORSE against bolters than Tac Marines are. Each bolter shot kills 1.56 points of Tac Marines (2/3 hit, 1/3 wound, 1/9 through the armour, for 14/9 points), but kills 1.94 points of Terminators (2/3 hit, 1/3 wound, 1/18 through the save, for 35/18).

something's not right about that, poor Terminators!

What they need is S5 Storm Bolters and the option for 2 Heavy Weapons per 5 guys.

That's a more optimal fix than 10 points off because of the Power Sword.

Or the game needs way more AP3 and way less AP 2.

Martel732 wrote:
Or the game needs way more AP3 and way less AP 2.

Or way less of both. It's not like Tactical Marines are in dire need of seeing more weapons across the field that ignore their armour.

A 10 point price reduction would make sense and be fine. The thing is that it doesn't really do much to address the core issues with terminators. It's sort of like asking whether or not wyches should have +1 initiative. It wouldn't be a problem and would technically make them slightly better, but it's nowhere close to the change they need.

The main issue right now is that terminators are only T4, meaning that the plethora of anti-infantry weapons that are S6 and higher with high rates of fire just whittle them down from sheer numbers. Then you have the other end of the spectrum where AP2 weaponry is also pretty easily spammed in the current meta with various top-tier armies, like grav-cents or ion accelerators from Tau.

Then on top of this Terminators have a pretty below average damage ouput for their cost and lack a reliable and properly priced mode of transport. Deep Strike is too unreliable and does nothing except in the specific formations that allow you to deep strike assault. Land Raiders are 250+ point bricks of meh in the age of strength D weapons and hull points, which also are underpowered for both resilience and damage output.

The terminators design paradigm is fundamentally outdated and they need an entire overhaul to work in the current meta.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Or the game needs way more AP3 and way less AP 2.

Or way less of both. It's not like Tactical Marines are in dire need of seeing more weapons across the field that ignore their armour.

I've already kind of given up on the stock marine, to be honest. Marines are life support systems for grav cannons and free vehicles now, nothing more. They're even less for BA, as BA can't bring either. The marine stat line is garbage in the modern game.

Actually the best fix for Terminators is to make Terminator armour grant +1 wound in all cases across all armies that have Terminator armour.
You could even include MegaNobs in that.

That's the simplest fix that doesn't require any points tinkering and also fits with their Bulky appearance.

 Galef wrote:
Actually the best fix for Terminators is to make Terminator armour grant +1 wound in all cases across all armies that have Terminator armour.
You could even include MegaNobs in that.

That's the simplest fix that doesn't require any points tinkering and also fits with their Bulky appearance.

Doesn't fix their appalling lack of offense. And being doubled out like little bitches. MCs are still laughing all the way to the bank.

I'm on-board with a 2nd wound.

Allowing them to do Heavies as "2 per 5" would also plug the offensive gap quite a bit.

Well, it's an improvement, even if it's far from perfect. I feel like these changes would work great vs lower tier lists and mean nothing vs Eldar/Tau. Wraithknight still doubles you out in shooting and melee, as does the ion accelerator.

It would help versus Heavy Burst Riptides (which are popular for Riptide Wings due to re-rolling the Nova Reactor, and the formation giving them a turn of firing 24 shots each) and Skatach Wraithknights though, which are the two more popular builds for both units though.

Martel732 wrote:
Well, it's an improvement, even if it's far from perfect. I feel like these changes would work great vs lower tier lists and mean nothing vs Eldar/Tau. Wraithknight still doubles you out in shooting and melee, as does the ion accelerator.

As they should. TDA isn't supposed to be this nigh invulnerable suit of magic armour. But they should "die like little b!+ches" to small arms fire, which is why the extra wound helps.
It still leaves them vulnerable and you still won't see them as SUPER competitive, but they will at least live do their job better. If that means having the opponent dedicate a model that is nearly 2x more than their cost to kill them, so be it. A WK is going to kill 2 max at range and only 3 on average in combat

I guess. They still a) can't catch the Riptides and b) their shooting does nothing to Riptides. Same goes for WKs. The god-like MC paradigm has marginalized so many weapons in 40K, even those that were serviceable only two editions ago. No one cares about two terminator heavy weapons in a game where you can face 40 scatterlasers easy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Well, it's an improvement, even if it's far from perfect. I feel like these changes would work great vs lower tier lists and mean nothing vs Eldar/Tau. Wraithknight still doubles you out in shooting and melee, as does the ion accelerator.

As they should. TDA isn't supposed to be this nigh invulnerable suit of magic armour. But they should "die like little b!+ches" to small arms fire, which is why the extra wound helps.
It still leaves them vulnerable and you still won't see them as SUPER competitive, but they will at least live do their job better. If that means having the opponent dedicate a model that is nearly 2x more than their cost to kill them, so be it. A WK is going to kill 2 max at range and only 3 on average in combat

" A WK is going to kill 2 max at range and only 3 on average in combat"

Multiplied by six turns. Just sayin.

 Galef wrote:
Actually the best fix for Terminators is to make Terminator armour grant +1 wound in all cases across all armies that have Terminator armour.
You could even include MegaNobs in that.

That's the simplest fix that doesn't require any points tinkering and also fits with their Bulky appearance.

So now we have two wound Death Guard Terminators and 3 wound Paladins.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Actually the best fix for Terminators is to make Terminator armour grant +1 wound in all cases across all armies that have Terminator armour.
You could even include MegaNobs in that.

That's the simplest fix that doesn't require any points tinkering and also fits with their Bulky appearance.

So now we have two wound Death Guard Terminators and 3 wound Paladins.

Sure. Riptide don't care, so why should the rest of us?

Martel732 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Actually the best fix for Terminators is to make Terminator armour grant +1 wound in all cases across all armies that have Terminator armour.
You could even include MegaNobs in that.

That's the simplest fix that doesn't require any points tinkering and also fits with their Bulky appearance.

So now we have two wound Death Guard Terminators and 3 wound Paladins.

Sure. Riptide don't care, so why should the rest of us?

The Riptide would care about the Death Guard ones. That's two wounds with T5, FNP, and then the 2+/5++ on top.

Oh we found one unit that Riptide cares about! A miracle!

Deathwing Knights as well. Solo Deathwatch Terminators too (What are you going to do, fire a blast at one model?)

Martel732 wrote:
Oh we found one unit that Riptide cares about! A miracle!

Back up. Why does the Riptide not care about two-Wound T4 Terminators? It's S6.

(You may be thinking of one of the bigger ones. The Stormsurge is at least S8, if I recall correctly.)

Ion accelerators are S8.

Martel732 wrote:
...Doesn't fix their appalling lack of offense...

I'm tinkering with Assault 2 at 18"/Assault 3 at 12" on storm bolters and Skitarii heavy weapon distribution (two guns at minimum squad size/three guns at maximum squad size) in my homemade GK Codex. Will let you know how it's working as it develops.