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Made in ie
Terrifying Wraith






Back in the day what were the better teams to play with? I'm looking to start playing Vampires and thralls but don't like playing the "stronger" lists as i like a challenge
   
Made in us
Clousseau




Vampires are not a stronger team becaus they are unreliable and kill their own guys.

If you want a challenge, vampire teams are a pretty mid tier team to play.
   
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Terrifying Wraith






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Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut






The power tiers depend a bit on your league rules. For an example, the situation is very different in a one day tournament with 110k teams than it is in a long-running league with dozens or hundreds of matches.

Usually, elves are very strong as their AG 4 and high MA allow for all sorts of dickery. Necromantic teams are often ranked high, too, since Wights and Werewolves are very efficient critters that also refuse to die in league play. I'd personally throw Lizardmen up there too, since they run through about everything and after a few skills also punch through.

Dwarves, normal and Chaos, are very decent teams in the mid-tier, but suffer against faster teams after the initial matches. Skaven suffer in the opposite way, by being very fast but having a tendency to explode to any decent bashing. Most teams end in this tier by having some pros and cons.

Vampires, Ogres, Goblins, Halflings and such make up the bottom tier by simply being god-awful without some hardcore coaching. Not impossible, but truly challenging.

Then there are some that may shift between tiers, like Chaos is for me. The first few games will mostly consist of sucking in everything, after which they can either carry on sucking, become the most horrifying murdermachine ever invented or something completely different. Entirely passing AG-team, even.

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Terrifying Wraith






Halflings!! I forgot about them and the tree men
   
Made in us
Apprehensive Inquisitorial Apprentice




Columbia SC

Sherrypie wrote:
The power tiers depend a bit on your league rules. For an example, the situation is very different in a one day tournament with 110k teams than it is in a long-running league with dozens or hundreds of matches.

Usually, elves are very strong as their AG 4 and high MA allow for all sorts of dickery. Necromantic teams are often ranked high, too, since Wights and Werewolves are very efficient critters that also refuse to die in league play. I'd personally throw Lizardmen up there too, since they run through about everything and after a few skills also punch through.

Dwarves, normal and Chaos, are very decent teams in the mid-tier, but suffer against faster teams after the initial matches. Skaven suffer in the opposite way, by being very fast but having a tendency to explode to any decent bashing. Most teams end in this tier by having some pros and cons.

Vampires, Ogres, Goblins, Halflings and such make up the bottom tier by simply being god-awful without some hardcore coaching. Not impossible, but truly challenging.

Then there are some that may shift between tiers, like Chaos is for me. The first few games will mostly consist of sucking in everything, after which they can either carry on sucking, become the most horrifying murdermachine ever invented or something completely different. Entirely passing AG-team, even.


Having played BB since second edition when the blocking dice were introduced I agree with a lot of your assessment with a few minor differences.

I have yet to see a Wood Elf team stay atop League rankings for the simple reason of AV 7. AG 4 is pretty awesome and Dodge is a great skill but the heavier teams with access to Tackle generally neutralize that advantage. I would put them at the mid tier.

I also see C Dwarfs as a top tier team because they don't lack MA as bad as regular Dwarfs. Hobgoblins, although not impressive statwise, are MA 6 and are dirt cheap at 40k a piece. Bull Centaurs are IMHO one of the best models in the game. MA 6, ST 4, and AV 9 with Sprint and Sure Feet makes for a fast hard hitting blitzer. Break Tackle can make them really scary as they make dodges off of ST rather than AG. Then the regular Chaos Dwarf blockers just chew up the line of scrimmage with their high AV 9. Tackle ensures no Dodgy models get a free pass to get away and starting with Block is great. For skill ups, Guard should be the first one considered as it makes that line so much harder to get through.
   
Made in no
Longtime Dakkanaut





Top Tier includes Lizardmen, Dwarves, all Elf teams, Humans, Orcs, Skaven, Amazon, Chaos, Necromantic, Norse, possible Undead and Chaos Dwarves.

The rest are mid and low tier teams.
   
Made in ie
Terrifying Wraith






Why are dwarfs considered top tier? I wasn't seeing them a being particularly good upon reading their rules
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 Spyro_Killer wrote:
Why are dwarfs considered top tier? I wasn't seeing them a being particularly good upon reading their rules
They're good early on because everything but runners have block, the blockers have tackle and reasonably high AV means players are more likely to stay in the game. You just have to be careful not to leave openings where fast catchers/skinks/gutter runners might squeeze through.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/03 11:42:17


 
   
Made in ca
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Baxx wrote:Top Tier includes Lizardmen, Dwarves, all Elf teams, Humans, Orcs, Skaven, Amazon, Chaos, Necromantic, Norse, possible Undead and Chaos Dwarves.

The rest are mid and low tier teams.


This list lacks nuance. Skaven, Undead, Chaos and Plain Dwarfs, Wood Elves and Amazon are generally top tier and are well represented at tournamnents. Undead and/or Skaven are usually counted as "the best". They certainly have the strongest roster.

High and Pro Elves, Human, Lizards, Orcs, Chaos and Necromantic are mid tier, with some of these teams rising to top tier depending on the league makeup.

The rest, as you say, are bottom tier due to difficulty of coaching or poor roster.

These lists are not hard and fast by any means, and some teams will be better in a long or perpetual league. Vampires and Chaos get really, really good in the long run.

Spyro_Killer wrote:Why are dwarfs considered top tier? I wasn't seeing them a being particularly good upon reading their rules


Dwarfs are good out of the gate due to their plethora of excellent starting skills. They also perform well vs new coaches. In the long run, and vs experienced coaches, though Dwarfs suffer due to low movement.

Most of the game is won through positioning of players and minimising the amount of dice rolled.

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Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

I'd be more interested in a ranking when it comes to league play and teams gain skills.
As said, Dwarfs are good out of the box but in league game they are too slow.
How about the other teams?

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Made in no
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Spyro_Killer wrote:
Why are dwarfs considered top tier? I wasn't seeing them a being particularly good upon reading their rules

Dwarves are particularly good, maybe one of the best.

Almost all come with block. Let's say you play Chaos, your first level ups will most likely be block. At that time, Dwarfes pick guard. So if you get Block on your entire team, equivalently Dwarves get Guard on the entire team.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 feeder wrote:

Dwarfs are good out of the gate due to their plethora of excellent starting skills. They also perform well vs new coaches. In the long run, and vs experienced coaches, though Dwarfs suffer due to low movement.

Most of the game is won through positioning of players and minimising the amount of dice rolled.

I would like to add, Dwarves excell particularly good in the long run. They can never get enough Guard, they enjoy greatly any doubles they get (Dodge or Diving Tackle), they get good use of any additional skills beyond Guard too, like Mighty Blow and Stand Firm.

If you have any arguments against it, pleace face my TV2000 Dwarf team to see what I mean.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 feeder wrote:

This list lacks nuance. Skaven, Undead, Chaos and Plain Dwarfs, Wood Elves and Amazon are generally top tier and are well represented at tournamnents. Undead and/or Skaven are usually counted as "the best". They certainly have the strongest roster.

High and Pro Elves, Human, Lizards, Orcs, Chaos and Necromantic are mid tier, with some of these teams rising to top tier depending on the league makeup.

The rest, as you say, are bottom tier due to difficulty of coaching or poor roster.

The tournament rules I have seen have all been unanimous, All elf teams, orcs, lizards, chaos and necromantic are top tier. I heard Wood Elves were the very best in some aspects. You could always double check with statistics:
http://naf.talkfantasyfootball.org/

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/02/05 17:52:56


 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard






South Dakota

What it top varies, as people have said, by length of league, skills gotten, and even roster build.
But what is bottom is easily known.
Goblins, Halflings, Vampires, and Ogres are all really hard teams to win with. But it is a dice game, and on any given sunday... yada yada.

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Hamburg

Dwarves are particularly good, maybe one of the best.

Almost all come with block. Let's say you play Chaos, your first level ups will most likely be block. At that time, Dwarfes pick guard. So if you get Block on your entire team, equivalently Dwarves get Guard on the entire team.

Indeed, Guard makes Dwarves particularly good.
This makes the tactics even more obvious.

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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 feeder wrote:
Baxx wrote:Top Tier includes Lizardmen, Dwarves, all Elf teams, Humans, Orcs, Skaven, Amazon, Chaos, Necromantic, Norse, possible Undead and Chaos Dwarves.

The rest are mid and low tier teams.


This list lacks nuance. Skaven, Undead, Chaos and Plain Dwarfs, Wood Elves and Amazon are generally top tier and are well represented at tournamnents. Undead and/or Skaven are usually counted as "the best". They certainly have the strongest roster.

Depends. In a one-off league, Skaven are ok. In a sustained league, they are garbage as they'll lose all of their skill players every game.

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Made in ca
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London, Ontario

Teirs tend to shift at different TV.

For example, I'd say Orcs outplay Chaos until about 1850 TV, at which point access to mutations, such as Claws, give Chaos the lead as a Kill'em'all and let Nuffle sort 'em out team. At about that same time, wide access to Claws, with higher MV gives the edge to Chaos vs Dwarves. Their AV doesn't matter, and when you're boosting your Injury Rolls, and rerolling those rolls... casualties add up quick.

For that same reason, Humans start to outplay Orcs at that point, due to higher MV. The lower armour matters less against Kill'em teams, and access to proper catchers makes the passing game more of an option vs smashier teams.

Lizards kind of have a top-out point. Really, if you can get a skink with Sure Hands, Catch, then the only valuable skills to add to that are more agility and movement skills, like sure feet. Realistically, your Skinks aren't really worth more than 80k, when you get more than 2 skills, unless you get bonus AG. So people usually retire Skinks at level 3 unless you hit the jackpot, and they usually get killed quickly at that point anyhow as a priority target. Saurus take for bleeding EVER to level, so seldom get passed Block and another skill. If you get a 3rd, you've probably been playing so long that everyone else has retired several TEAMS by that point. But they're great early to mid development.

Elves are one of those teams, that if you can keep them rolling long enough, wind up with great masses of skills that are worth every point. In my opinion, Elven teams are most able to take advantage of long leagues.

Skaven depend entirely on keeping their Gutter Runners alive. You could sacrifice the whole rest of the team, retiring them at any point, if you can keep the Gutter Runners alive. So they kind of have a cap on their value, there. You have 4 level 6 dudes, and 10 level 1 or 2 dudes.

Undead have a unique class where their Ghouls play a similar role, but they can really bash the snot out of most teams, while replacing the place holding Zombies at will. If your Mummies can get block, you can just dominate the field.
   
 
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