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Well, here is my list of changes I would make to the IG codex.  Yes I realize that most of these are major boosts, but as this is just for fun anyway!<?

1) one point price drop across the board for IG infantry

2)Do away with the advisors rule.  Allow priests and commissars to be added where ever they are needed as an upgrade to a squad.  (this is a great fix for Ogryn, imagine attaching a hidden commissar with powerfist and a priest with an evisorator to a squad of 5 Ogryn)

3)Rough Riders, loose the lances but gain the ability to take three special weapons.  Change the movement rate to 6 inches + d6.  Remove fleet rule.  (These guys are scouts, not medeivel knights)

4)Hellhound, av 13 front, but gets back the glances always pen rule

5)Russ, Reinforced armor, any hits to the front armor do not gain any bonus to strength.  In addition ap1 weapons do not pen on a glance the front of a russ.  Lance weapons work as normal.  Any hits to the sides or rear are resolved as normal. 

6)Sentinel, 5 point price drop

7)Hardened fighters, adds +1 to init

8)Carapace is +2 pts per model

9)Mortars are heavy 2

10)Grenade launchers are assault 2

11)Plasma gets a 2 point price rise

12)Drop Troops cost 5 pts per unit.

Rather than a 1 point drop for all IG, I'd rather see a drop in the cost of heavy weapons. IG armies have this rep for having a ton of heavy weapons, but in the end- it's not uncommon for SM to have as many or more big guns. Droping the cost of a guardsman would just lead to hoard armies- that's what constripts are for.

Drop Troops really should cost something (along with Close Order Drill). Giving these away for free just makes them mandatory in all IG armies.

@ Foil: I like it, but aren't Hellhounds already AV13 front?

@ RanTheCid:  Drop Troops and Close Order Drill aren't free, they take up a doctrine point.  I see what you're trying to get at, but having to pick and choose doctrines is actually an issue if you want to make a list that deviates at all from "standard" IG.

They are 12 front and sides, the av13 front is a screw up in the index.

Wow, It is fun, I like it, I'll answer them point by point:

1) one point price drop across the board for IG infantry

Sure, IG las rifle infantry are nearlt statistically irrelevant except as wounds anyway, So 10 points less a squad, sure.

2)Do away with the advisors rule.  Allow priests and commissars to be added where ever they are needed as an upgrade to a squad.  (this is a great fix for Ogryn, imagine attaching a hidden commissar with powerfist and a priest with an evisorator to a squad of 5 Ogryn)

Yes the advisor rule is ridiculous isnt it?  The IG codex has access to loads of substandard characters, but the way they can be played is limited? What? The greatest Irony in a list is that Imperial Guard ICs are listed as ICs, but they have to stay with their squads... Well are they INDEPENDANT or not?

But Technically those IC's are still IC's meaning that even if you removed the advisor rule they still would have to be in BTB to strike and are practically worthless in HtH because of it as they become targets... So it would also be necesary to remove IC from the IG characters stats, allowing them to strike hidden, so they have a chance against other armies, heck IG gloves aren't even S8, theyre S6 so still no insta kills, without that at least they really have no chance in CC vs anyone.

Remove IG characters IC STATUS, they aren't really ICs anyway (they HAVE to come with squads and stay with them right?)

3)Rough Riders, loose the lances but gain the ability to take three special weapons.  Change the movement rate to 6 inches + d6.  Remove fleet rule.  (These guys are scouts, not medeivel knights)

Lose the lance? No way, this is the only viable CC unit in the whole army mess it up and 1 high Initiative assault unit can kill an entire gunline...

Now if Ogryns were fixed...

4)Hellhound, av 13 front, but gets back the glances always pen rule

Old school! Sure.

5)Russ, Reinforced armor, any hits to the front armor do not gain any bonus to strength.  In addition ap1 weapons do not pen on a glance the front of a russ.  Lance weapons work as normal.  Any hits to the sides or rear are resolved as normal. <?

Makes sense, but this kind of rules writing is what I hate about the GW style sometimes which is:

UNIVERSAL RULES->Exceptions to them->Special cases->Exceptions to the special cases to the UNIVERSAL RULES

(to many layers)

6)Sentinel, 5 point price drop

Meh, sentinels are ok, theyre so week to shoot at, its the weapon upgrades that are to costly I think, base cost is fine.

7)Hardened fighters, adds +1 to init

Yes, nice to have I4 and strike with all the competent armies in the universe in CC with at least a single unit.

8)Carapace is +2 pts per model

Going from a 4+ to a 5+ save is not really  a big deal anyway.  Furthermore the restrictions on how carapace can be taken are already a limiting factor.

9)Mortars are heavy 2

Mortars could sure use a boost, but a 2 template weapon, would need a bit of clarification to fire it, is that 2 volleys of 3 per battery? or  1 volley of 6?  Good idea though.

10)Grenade launchers are assault 2

OK but I think the grenade launcher is wierd already, it doesn't strike me as a rapid fire type weapon, I think It should be S7 Assault 1 blast 24 Inches, like a mini move and shoot missile launcher, or a man pack autocannon.

11)Plasma gets a 2 point price rise

What? IG plasma guys almost always die when they rapid fire, why bother upping the prices? Only bad idea in the list I say.

12)Drop Troops cost 5 pts per unit.

Wierd for it to be free isn't it? Agreed.

1)Mortar is an indirect weapon and would fire in vollies, so one volley of 6 from a mortar team, or one volley of two from a single mortar.

2)Grenade launcher, nerfed by the blast rules, nerfed by the fact that a crack grenade can not krak anything. Add to the fact that the plasma gun is only two points more, and oh so better.... However doubling its Dakka makes it a real option, and still keeps it distinct from the plasma gun

3)Agree 100% with the advisor suggestions, remove advisors rule, and IC status.

4)I would only want to change the rough riders if the Ogryn got the boost. Do the math for a 6 man unit of Ogryn with the love glove commisar and the priest with big chainsaw vs an assault squad.

5)Oh yeah give rough riders, the sentinal special rules as well.

Yea, bigtime on 5, roughriders with the scout special rule, I really like that, fluffy, and effective, good call.

wishlists are fun, here is mine

a) some type of strength 5 or higher powerweapon option on a sentinel.
b)more weapon options for sentinels like assault cannons on a sentinal,multi-melta's etc.
c)strength 4/ -ap lasguns.
d) a way to exchange a heavy weapon for an assault weapon in drop troop squads.
e)bikes or small jeeps for scouts instead of the wacky rough riders models.

"1) one point price drop across the board for IG infantry"

I thought the reason they were changed to 6 points from 5 back in the 'Hordes' book that came with 3rd Ed is because someone showed up to a GT with a 200+ model Guard Army that could not be beaten (both normally and especially in a VP scenario).

6 points is fine.

"3)Rough Riders, loose the lances but gain the ability to take three special weapons.  Change the movement rate to 6 inches + d6.  Remove fleet rule.  (These guys are scouts, not medeivel knights)"

So, remove their speed and their chief weapons. Why would I take these again?

"4)Hellhound, av 13 front, but gets back the glances always pen rule"

And turn them into easy targets again? No thanks.

"5)Russ, Reinforced armor, any hits to the front armor do not gain any bonus to strength.  In addition ap1 weapons do not pen on a glance the front of a russ.  Lance weapons work as normal.  Any hits to the sides or rear are resolved as normal."

Don't see why. Russes are tough enough.

"6)Sentinel, 5 point price drop"
<?
I'd even say 10, and either remove Armoured Top of make it 5 points.

"7)Hardened fighters, adds +1 to init"

Plus COD = Init 5 Guardsmen. No.

"8)Carapace is +2 pts per model"

Which doesn't solve anything. 10 points a squad, just like Cameleoline.

"9)Mortars are heavy 2"

Giving them the 'Choppa' rules makes them better.

"10)Grenade launchers are assault 2"

At their current price, yes. I'd rather make them 5 points each though.

"11)Plasma gets a 2 point price rise"

 You are joking right? 12 points on a model that hits half the time and kills himself 2/3rds of the time on a 1, whereas Marines get it for 10? A Plasma Gun is worth 6 points in the hands of a Guardsman. 8 I can live with. It needs a 2 point reduction, not an increase.

"12)Drop Troops cost 5 pts per unit."

That I would not mind.

BYE

My guard wish list. 1.Lower the cost of fire support teams. They are too easy to kill. 2. Lose the advisors rule and make commissars a HQ choice that can have 0-6 as a unit or they can attach themselves to any squad they wish. Bring back the commissar training squads! 3. Priests and Sanctioned Psykers should be squad upgrades to ALL IG units. 4. Lower the cost of weapon upgrades on sentinals. Also add more weapon loadouts (i.e. assault cannons, heavybolters, etc.) 5. Reduce the cost of ogryns, and give the bonehead access to powerweapons. Also make ogyrns fearsome in combat. Say, any unit charged by ogryns or wishing to assault them must take a LD test. If they pass all is well. If not the unit fights with a WS of 2 as they are overwelmed by the brute force of the ogryns. 6. Drop Troops 5 pts per squad. 7. Add in the super command squad from WD. However, let the Supreme commander take weapon boosts like DoW. That commander would be an awesome model. 8. Make mortars not suck 9. Make preliminary barrage a special rule if you have a master vox. Basically if you have a MV, you get the preliminary barrage rule like a fighta bomma raid. This will make master voxes worth taking. 10. Bring back the bolter upgrade for Hardened Vets! 11. Reduce the cost of stormtroopers and give them access to skills (tank hunters, move through cover, etc.) as upgrades. They need more options. These are all I can think of right now.... Capt K

Lose the advisor rules.

 Lower the costs of priests. 

Allow any guard inf squad to substitute a 2nd special wpn for a heavy weapon.

Allow Storm trooper sgts the option for a hellgun instead of LP/CCW

Better weapons for sentinels - why do these not get Hvy bolters?  Twin linked?

Lower cost of track guards - compare to what TAU pay to avoid immobilized.

 

1)Would a 200 model guard army be that bad of a thing? Plus it can be killed if fighting the right army. MEQs would have a rough time though. Besides I can name 4 other armies off the top of my head that "can not be beaten!"

3)You would take rough riders because if you remove the fleet rule, but change their base speed to 6+d6, they can move and shoot. Add in three special weapons and you actually have a fast fast attack.

4)AV13 is easy? It would let them run with the russ's a little better.

5)What about VS rail guns, tank hunters, ect, lookin for a boost that would up their survivablity without completly boning some armies like the monolith.

7)Init 5, so what they are still strenght 3 and test to run on init three. Plus you would have to burn two doc points and then pay some points for the bonus.

8)It solves everything, my big beef is that I got to pay 20 points to upgrade a 5 man command squad to carapace or a 6 man vet squad. changing it to 2 points per model makes it a little fairer.

9)agreed, but should termies really save on a 4+ vs mortars?

11) Yes I am

1) Give us screening back! Honestly, call it "they all look the same" or "there's just too many of them" or "engage operation meatshield"

I thought of another one. Bring back useful vehicle wargear. Camo netting? Mine sweeper? Does anyone use this crap? What about Reinforced armor? I want that! Or Electro hulls? Hell, what about Ceramite armor? Bring those back! I also agree with the poster about track guards. Tau get the ability to shake off an immoblized result for 5pts! Also lower the points on improved comms. 20pts for 1 reroll is over the top. Capt K

Here are two changes I would make to the IG list:

1) Orgyns count as monstrous creatures in close combat and an otion to take Carapace Armor.

2) Veterans have access to actual Veteran Skills, especially Tank Hunters.

1) Orgyns count as monstrous creatures in close combat and an otion to take Carapace Armor

Ummm... no? That would be way too much. Were you just going for the ignore armor and 2d6 thing, or did you intend for them to count as 10 models each.

carapace armor does make sense though.

"1)Would a 200 model guard army be that bad of a thing? Plus it can be killed if fighting the right army. MEQs would have a rough time though. Besides I can name 4 other armies off the top of my head that "can not be beaten!""

Yes. It would be. How are you going to make VP's back when you're better off firing your guns at MEQ's to make points back than you are Guardsmen. I've seen a 250+/- point unit of Scorpians charge into Guard lines and make back 76 points before being wiped out even though they killed over 20 men.

You reduce the cost of Guardsmen accross the board and an all-infantry Guard army becomes even more of a statistical rules abuse army. As I said, there is a very good reason that Guardsmen went from 5 to 6 when the first Guard Codex came out. Guardsmen aren't worth 6 if you look at their stats/weapons, but from a game balencing perspective, they are.

3)You would take rough riders because if you remove the fleet rule, but change their base speed to 6+d6, they can move and shoot. Add in three special weapons and you actually have a fast fast attack.

Why would I want a fast unit with Special Weapons? Why would I ever take a unit like that? And RR's are fast attack - they're fast, and they attack enemy assaulters. They're the only viable HTH unit in the army. And saying 'If Ogryn were fixed...', they should BOTH be viable HTH units. We shouldn't have to trade one for another.

"4)AV13 is easy? It would let them run with the russ's a little better."

It ain't a Russ.

"5)What about VS rail guns, tank hunters, ect, lookin for a boost that would up their survivablity without completly boning some armies like the monolith."

Yeah, what about them? Those things good at killing vehicles. Deal with it. We don't need another special-f***ing-rule to fight other special rules.

"7)Init 5, so what they are still strenght 3 and test to run on init three. Plus you would have to burn two doc points and then pay some points for the bonus."

So they're faster than Marines, Chaos Marines, a lot of Eldar and equal in speed to Aspect Warriors and Gaunts. What have you been smoking, 'cause I want some Foil.

Init 5 Guardsmen is so beyond stupid. It's like saying Toughness 4 Guardsmen - it just doesn't happen.

"8)It solves everything, my big beef is that I got to pay 20 points to upgrade a 5 man command squad to carapace or a 6 man vet squad. changing it to 2 points per model makes it a little fairer"

And I don't disagree that paying 20 points for a 5-man squad is stupid. However, paying 20 points for a 10 man squad is just slightly less stupid. Carapace Armour should be 10 points per unit (Warrior Weapons free, Cybernetic Enhancements should not exist, Cameleoline is fine), and Special Equipment in general should be applied per 'choice' on the FOC, not per army, so you can have a Heavy Infantry (Carapace Armour) platoon and a Light Infantry (Light Infantry & Cameleoline) platoon in the same army.

9)agreed, but should termies really save on a 4+ vs mortars?

No. One of the things we did in our ruleset is we changed Heavy Close Combat Weapons to a -1Sv rather than a flat out 4+. Always felt dumb to us that a Terminator loses the effectiveness of his armour vs an Ork, yet someone in carapace doesn't? The -1Sv made more sense, then we could apply that rule to other guns (Autocannons, Reaper Autocannons, Assault Cannons, Griffon Mortars, Mortars, Inferno Cannons, Sub-Munitions). Makes things far more interesting.

11) Yes I am

Phew!

BYE

1. Make Ogryns a worthwile (counter)assault unit.
2. Make plasma cheaper, and/or an upgrade to give the gunner +1 save.
3. Points cost lowered for the above mentioned doctrines.
4. Making mortars useful.
5. Price drop on storm troopers.

(fingers crossed for next version of the I.G codex)

I haven't read all the posts, but the best way IMHO to represent Rough Riders being used as Scouts is to allow them to purchase the Improved Comms vehicle upgrade for the squad, possibly at a slight discount. Cavalry in the age of skirmishing, rifle-armed infantry did become relegated to intelligence, but a drive-by squad on horsies doesn't really represent it - guns and horses have rarely mixed in the sort of "shock attack" role performed by IG suicide squads or Fantasy Pistoliers. Forcing stationary shooting with rapid fire/fleet reflects a dragoon style of dismounted shooting. Perhaps they could be allowed bolt guns (heresy!) in lieu of lasguns a la USA ACW -style when the cavalry got the repeaters that were too heavy to be carried by men on foot. Becoming even more anachronistic, why not allow heavy weapons in RR squads? Limber up and gallop away.

Alternatively maybe RRs/Ratlings/maybe otehr "irregulars" like vets could have an "inverse" Improved Comms effect (affecting your opponents reserves rolls) to represent behind-the-lines sabotage/harassing sniping, so long as they are not on the table. And one last thing about RRs - lancers are good, but Cuirassers (lp+ccw) are nowhere near as effective. You oughta be able to get FC + x2 heavy ccw at the same rate as a lance.

In general, most of my problems are with doctrines. Hardened Fighters should include Warrior Weapons, f'rinstance. The sniper rifle from LI should be free, as it's not useful enough to justify +5 pts AND a heavy weapon slot IMHO. Back to units, playable Ogryns would be cool. Also rules for human bikers would be neat, as well as seeing the Gryphon back in the standard book.

@H. : Not to pick on your idea specifically, but I would personally be quite surprised to see save modifiers in 5th. They've got enough complaints about how it's the same as Fantasy as it is.

"1)Would a 200 model guard army be that bad of a thing? Plus it can be killed if fighting the right army. MEQs would have a rough time though. Besides I can name 4 other armies off the top of my head that "can not be beaten!""

H.B.M.C.> Yes. It would be. How are you going to make VP's back when you're better off firing your guns at MEQ's to make points back than you are Guardsmen. I've seen a 250+/- point unit of Scorpians charge into Guard lines and make back 76 points before being wiped out even though they killed over 20 men.

No, it wouldn't be (200 IG).  IG are easily killed by (because of morale) the hoard when they fall back out of CC, (and by tank shock, morale checks from fire and psychic powers).  I have personally destroyed 70 IG, an entire army, with a mere 8 striking scorions because of their low I and abysmal HtH ability. I have seen the exact same thing with a berserk demon prince several times.  It is inexplicable what you claim to have seen.  How could IG ever strike back at Scorpians?

Assault, destroy the killzone, consolidate, anihilate, rinse and repeat.  Plus lasrifle guys are statistically worthless anyway vs T4 3Sv, 20 shots to kill a MEq and they're not even half the points cost? Come on, they could be less points a squad.

The poblem with the base IG cost is really because they raised the basic cost from 5 to 6 points, and then went back and raised the cost of special and heavy weapons to the point where IG pay the same or more for their weapons as Marines who have a higher BS and are much Tougher to kill.

Those two factors have made the basic IG squad slightly overcosted. They either need to reduce the basic pt value of a guardsmen back down to 5 or return their Heavy and Special weapons back to a sane level. Either way accomplishes the same goal.

Which costs Yak?

The 3 point flamer, 8 point melta/plasma/grenade and 20 point Lascannons of the first 3rd Ed Guard Codex, or the 'Ravening Hordes' Guard list from the BBB?

BYE

my turn

1 close order gives you extra attack from baonets

2 hellgun improved stats mabe bolter stats only assault 2or3

3 jump/jet infentry mabe Terradon riders from the Lizardmen range

4 no stink flame cannon 4 d6 for range not not to hit there stinking flame wepon

5 doctrens dont restrict eleats as much

6 would it huurt to to give them (gaurdsmen) somthing better the angry flashlights

7 shotguns are made for obliterating things go hunting with a shotgun you wont have any trophys but you most likely kill somthing have you seen what thoes things can do   

Which costs Yak?

The 3 point flamer, 8 point melta/plasma/grenade and 20 point Lascannons of the first 3rd Ed Guard Codex, or the 'Ravening Hordes' Guard list from the BBB?

I was mainly talking about the transition from the BBB list to the first 3rd edition codex, although they did go crazy and raise some of the weapons costs again in this latest codex. But in general, the real damage was done in that first transition.

One or the other I say; one or the other (5 point guardsmen or appropriately priced weapon upgrades).

I can't for the life of me figure out how it is balanced for a BS3 guardsman to pay 25 points for a Lascannon, while a BS4 Marine that can shoot heavy weapons on the turn he rallies only has to pay 15 points for it. Ditto for equal costs for a Plasmagun, when the Marine not only hits more often, but saves on the Gets Hot twice as much!

I think they need to assign point costs for weapons based at least somewhat on the abilities of the model using it!

Why not have Mortars at Strength 5?  Seemes silly to me that a mortar shell is about as effective as a bolter anyway.  Make it Strength 5 AP4 and voala you have a viable weapon at an affordable cost. 

@Strangelooper.  25 points buys 4 lascannon per 100 points. 20 buys 5. A small but significant difference, as it permits more lascannon to be crammed in to an army that thinks big when it comes to number of units. P'r'aps that was thought of as a bad thing.

Posted By Max on 10/30/2006 6:21 PM
@Strngelooper.  25 points buys 4 lascannon per 100 points. 20 buys 5. A small but significant difference, as it permits more lascannon to be crammed in to an army that thinks big when it comes to number of units. P'r'aps that was thought of as a bad thing.

And that was a stupid thought (not you Max).  Making the weapons more expensive then everyone else, yet IG have BS 3???  Why shouldn't the guard be on parity or superior in terms of shooting? Their lower ballistic skill more than makes up for it, and their lack of HTH effectiveness (and lack of armor saves) counterbalances as well.

The following isn't me defending the decisions of designers, it's just following through on how they might see it. A six-man las/pas marine squad is 115 points, and you can field a maximum of six such units, for 690.  A 10-man las/plas IG squad is 93. Six squads plus 2 JOs to field them is 638, for two troops slots. Lascannon on the JOs as well (not the best tactical idea, but for this example) brings that up to 688. the aim I guess is to prevent too large an economy of scale. At 20 points per, that would be 648 points, at 15 points per that's 578 points. Unlike SMs which have run out of troops slots, there's 4 more troop slots to cram in more units.With an increasing economy of scale, the issue of stats becomes a non-issue as the IG can field enough warm bodies to overcome problems with BS and armour.

ya, but that 6 las cannons hitting half the time vs. 6 las cannons hitting a 3rd of the time...for roughly the same amount of points. Not to mention the plasma overheats are going to kill off the Guard a lot faster then marines and Marine bolters are so much more effective the Guard flashlights. Seems silly to me.

Lets throw all that together and see what it spells I-G G-O-T R-O-B-B-E-D...