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I enjoy all these off topic debates, so thought I would start one that has a lot of potential for diverse conversation. Feel free to post anything here that may answer questions like:
'Is Religion relevant in the 21st Century?'
'What does Religion mean to you?'
'Do Religions need to reform?'
'What counts as Religion?'
'What's Scientology and all those other obscure Religions past and present?'
Etc. Etc.
Well I might as well try to start the ball rolling in some way. I don't see myself as very Religious at all, technically I was born a Christian and on my death bed I will die a Christian, but that doesn't mean I agree with or follow the Bible's teachings. I wouldn't say I am an atheist either because there must be a point to life and death. What started it is debatable and what happens after death even more so. Whatever the reasons something must have started life and whatever happens after life I hope will only be good things for me be that an after life, reincarnation or whatever. I still like to believe there will be some form of judgement after death to keep us on the right path, in particular for those who do horrible acts in life.
I would be interested in anyone's else's views of what happens in life and death, where you think we are now and will be and how Religion all boils down to things in our modern world.
*sound of crickets in background*
Look, I am sure there are sensible people out there, I don't set out for anything to be insta-locked. Religion and Ethics could be a good topic to talk about and hopefully anyone seeking to just be a troll wouldn't be bothered to comment in a boring topic such as this. None the less I would be interested to hear your opinions on life and death etc if you have one.
Yeah, based on experience that thread is totally going to get locked, and people are going to get warning and temporary bans.
Sentinel1 wrote: 'Is Religion relevant in the 21st Century?' 'What does Religion mean to you?' 'Do Religions need to reform?' 'What counts as Religion?' 'What's Scientology and all those other obscure Religions past and present?'
My opinions are likely going to be considered quite controversial so I'm spoilering them. Don't read if you don't want to read very negative opinions on religion.
Spoiler:
Religion is very relevant in the 21st century, as a force for stagnation (or even regression) and war and other similarly negative things. With Trump in the US we will likely see much religiously-motivated attacks on science, for instance, and I don't think I even need to mention Islamism… Religiously-motivated evil is quite on the rise. Religion can't really reform because they are linked to some old “revelation” and any sincere reform must pretend to “go back to the root”, which too often means “read terrible texts again and base your morals on them”. Religion means giving up the “I don't know and I can't know but I am looking for the best consistent hypothesis that works with as many facts as I can gather” for “I know with certainty and will go to great length to ignore any fact showing I am wrong”. Any kind of cult count as religion, the main difference between a cult and a more mainstream religion being the lack of a guru who has a real, near complete emprise over the cult. I mean, sure, there can still be a kind of central leader like the Pope, but he is very far from all-powerful. That, or maybe how deep is the emprise of the cult leaders upon the followers? I am not sure there is an obvious definition here. I am less worried about scientology and more worried about more mainstream religions like Islam or Christianity, that are doing way more evil. But I wouldn't be surprised if they managed to keep existing as a small religion for centuries, just like many already do.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/04 11:58:52
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Yeah, based on experience that thread is totally going to get locked, and people are going to get warning and temporary bans.
Sentinel1 wrote: 'Is Religion relevant in the 21st Century?'
'What does Religion mean to you?'
'Do Religions need to reform?'
'What counts as Religion?'
'What's Scientology and all those other obscure Religions past and present?'
My opinions are likely going to be considered quite controversial so I'm spoilering them.
Don't read if you don't want to read very negative opinions on religion.
Spoiler:
Religion is very relevant in the 21st century, as a force for stagnation (or even regression) and war and other similarly negative things. With Trump in the US we will likely see much religiously-motivated attacks on science, for instance, and I don't think I even need to mention Islamism…
Religiously-motivated evil is quite on the rise.
Religion can't really reform because they are linked to some old “revelation” and any sincere reform must pretend to “go back to the root”, which too often means “read terrible texts again and base your morals on them”.
Religion means giving up the “I don't know and I can't know but I am looking for the best consistent hypothesis that works with as many facts as I can gather” for “I know with certainty and will go to great length to ignore any fact showing I am wrong”.
Any kind of cult count as religion, the main difference between a cult and a more mainstream religion being the lack of a guru who has a real, near complete emprise over the cult. I mean, sure, there can still be a kind of central leader like the Pope, but he is very far from all-powerful. That, or maybe how deep is the emprise of the cult leaders upon the followers? I am not sure there is an obvious definition here.
I am less worried about scientology and more worried about more mainstream religions like Islam or Christianity, that are doing way more evil. But I wouldn't be surprised if they managed to keep existing as a small religion for centuries, just like many already do.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Yeah, based on experience that thread is totally going to get locked, and people are going to get warning and temporary bans.
Sentinel1 wrote: 'Is Religion relevant in the 21st Century?'
'What does Religion mean to you?'
'Do Religions need to reform?'
'What counts as Religion?'
'What's Scientology and all those other obscure Religions past and present?'
My opinions are likely going to be considered quite controversial so I'm spoilering them.
Don't read if you don't want to read very negative opinions on religion.
Spoiler:
Religion is very relevant in the 21st century, as a force for stagnation (or even regression) and war and other similarly negative things. With Trump in the US we will likely see much religiously-motivated attacks on science, for instance, and I don't think I even need to mention Islamism…
Religiously-motivated evil is quite on the rise.
Religion can't really reform because they are linked to some old “revelation” and any sincere reform must pretend to “go back to the root”, which too often means “read terrible texts again and base your morals on them”.
Religion means giving up the “I don't know and I can't know but I am looking for the best consistent hypothesis that works with as many facts as I can gather” for “I know with certainty and will go to great length to ignore any fact showing I am wrong”.
Any kind of cult count as religion, the main difference between a cult and a more mainstream religion being the lack of a guru who has a real, near complete emprise over the cult. I mean, sure, there can still be a kind of central leader like the Pope, but he is very far from all-powerful. That, or maybe how deep is the emprise of the cult leaders upon the followers? I am not sure there is an obvious definition here.
I am less worried about scientology and more worried about more mainstream religions like Islam or Christianity, that are doing way more evil. But I wouldn't be surprised if they managed to keep existing as a small religion for centuries, just like many already do.
I don't know quite what to say, you have wrapped up my entire examples in a nutshell! I don't think you need worry about being branded 'extremist' because your view seems concise and to be honest I agree with pretty much all of it in a way. Thanks for sensibly replying.
I'm inclined to agree with Hybrid (especially after we discussed the subject via PM a while back). I will however stress that not everyone who follows a religion will use it to justify acts of evil; a lot will use it to better themselves or guide themselves forward. I think it's just sad that the actions of [typically] a minority are being forced on the majority to take responsibility for.
General Annoyance wrote: I'm inclined to agree with Hybrid (especially after we discussed the subject via PM a while back). I will however stress that not everyone who follows a religion will use it to justify acts of evil; a lot will use it to better themselves or guide themselves forward. I think it's just sad that the actions of [typically] a minority are being forced on the majority to take responsibility for.
Evil is a subjective matter. In my opinion forbidding abortion IS an act of evil. The actions of a minority can be considered extreme and blamed by the majority but always take origin from something that everyone in that culture agrees about. Not every muslim is a terrorist but almost every muslim is very strict about their way of living, and people that grows up in an enviroment that considers religion most important than the laws actually are the reason of the existence of religious terrorism and fanatism.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/04 14:09:14
General Annoyance wrote: I'm inclined to agree with Hybrid (especially after we discussed the subject via PM a while back). I will however stress that not everyone who follows a religion will use it to justify acts of evil; a lot will use it to better themselves or guide themselves forward. I think it's just sad that the actions of [typically] a minority are being forced on the majority to take responsibility for.
Yes, I forgot to mention this, thanks. For the record I am expressing my opinion on religion, NOT on people with faith. Fellow dakkanaut reading this, if you are religious, please don't mistake my message for saying that you personally are evil and want to do evil things, because this is not what I wanted to say.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blackie wrote: Not every muslim is a terrorist but almost every muslim is very strict about their way of living
I'd be wary about “almost every Muslim” or “almost every Christian” stuff because we are talking about highly heterogeneous groups, that are comprised of much more homogeneous groups. “Almost every Albanian Muslims”, for instance, or “almost every Polish Christians”, seems like generalization that works better because those group are still heterogeneous, sure, but in ways where considering them as a group makes more sense imo. They all live in similar sociol-cultural backgrounds and all. (Muslims in Albania are very relaxed about their way of living, the country is likely more secular than the US)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/04 14:11:40
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
My theory is to let anyone worship what they want as long as their faith/belief leads them on a path that doesn't negatively affect others- especially those who believe different from them.
Type of religion is not a decider in who's a good person.
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
Why is it necessary for this same topic to keep being discussed? ...Don't people have other sites they can go create threads like this other than a wargaming board? Wait, no, this is the ideal place to post this.
Wyrmalla wrote: Why is it necessary for this same topic to keep being discussed? ...Don't people have other sites they can go create threads like this other than a wargaming board? Wait, no, this is the ideal place to post this.
Convenience is what I'd say.
Besides, this topic would be fine to discuss if people weren't so eager to jab people/be so inflammatory.
I've met a lot of people who were motivated by their religion to do great, beneficial things for society. I've met a lot of people who have deep-seated hat reds, grudges or toxic ideologies and use their religion to justify acting in ways harmful to others, often to those others' faces. Sometimes both groups are the same people regarding different issues. It becomes very difficult to condemn religion, and outside of more modern religious movements, it is impossible to separate the one element from the other and leave a purely beneficent force of belief.
I've also met many loving and giving atheists, as well as some very angry atheists.
I guess what it boils down to is people are complex, and most of them can be real jerks sometimes.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I've met a lot of people who were motivated by their religion to do great, beneficial things for society. I've met a lot of people who have deep-seated hat reds, grudges or toxic ideologies and use their religion to justify acting in ways harmful to others, often to those others' faces. Sometimes both groups are the same people regarding different issues. It becomes very difficult to condemn religion, and outside of more modern religious movements, it is impossible to separate the one element from the other and leave a purely beneficent force of belief.
I've also met many loving and giving atheists, as well as some very angry atheists.
I guess what it boils down to is people are complex, and most of them can be real jerks sometimes.
But with a logic like that, it would require that you treat people as complex individuals and you can't just make a sweeping statement about entire groups! Madness!
I think that it's important to always remember the following: Religion isn't any more good or evil than law, tradition or anything else people use to guide their life choices. It's the people who are good or evil.
People use the law to do evil all the time, but seldom do we say "Is it time to abandon law and order?". Bottom line, society needs its social constructs to function. Law is one of them, religion is another, customs/traditions are a third. People will abuse all of them, however.
John Prins wrote: Religion isn't any more good or evil than law, tradition or anything else people use to guide their life choices.
Some laws and traditions are just evil. For instance the laws on slavery. We did remove those laws. Easy, because those are officially man-made and man-decided. Religion isn't supposed to be man-made (it is though, but you got to hush about it and pretend it isn't if you want people to keep believing), so it ain't that easy. You can't see “Let's change the Bible/the Hadith because actually being gay is okay and not a crime”.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/04 17:48:58
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
John Prins wrote: Religion isn't any more good or evil than law, tradition or anything else people use to guide their life choices.
Some laws and traditions are just evil.
Sort of proves my point, doesn't it? Religion is no better or worse than law or custom - they are rules that govern how we live our lives - and how we think other people should live their lives.
Note it took the Civil War to change those slavery laws in the USA - it wasn't 'easy' by any means. Many legal changes have caused social upheaval on large scales.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/04 18:09:28
This seemingly simple question has two distincively different meanings:
1. "Does any particular system of religious beliefs offers any reliable truth about the nature of surrounding reality?"
My answer is: to the extent measurable by scientific method, no, not really. Some psychological truths are imprinted into religious beliefs because religions are constructs of human societies, but religions are notoriously lacking in actual knowledge about how any mechanisms of nature work, including human brains.
2. "Does religion has any meanigfull impact on XXI century?"
My answer: this one is obviously true, to the extent that anyone hoping, that we can somehow get rid of religion or regious people from any stable society is naive. People need religious beliefs (including parareligious movements like Buddhism or "fanatic religious-like atheism/liberal belief systems" (sidenote: not every atheist is religious-like person, but they do exist in quite large number)) as a way of "sorting out" reality, keeping sanity, keeping motivation etc... This "inner need" of a "higher order of things" is a part of human species psychology and it has deep and broad influence on how social reality works, so in order to understand surrounding reality that includes large number of individuals driven by religious beliefs, one has to know how belief systems work.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I've met a lot of people who were motivated by their religion to do great, beneficial things for society. I've met a lot of people who have deep-seated hat reds, grudges or toxic ideologies and use their religion to justify acting in ways harmful to others, often to those others' faces. Sometimes both groups are the same people regarding different issues. It becomes very difficult to condemn religion, and outside of more modern religious movements, it is impossible to separate the one element from the other and leave a purely beneficent force of belief.
I've also met many loving and giving atheists, as well as some very angry atheists.
I guess what it boils down to is people are complex, and most of them can be real jerks sometimes.
But with a logic like that, it would require that you treat people as complex individuals and you can't just make a sweeping statement about entire groups! Madness!
If your point is “Christianity and Islam are bad things and it would be good to have nobody believing in them any more, but Jainism is definitely not as bad”, then yeah!
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
If your point is “Christianity and Islam are bad things and it would be good to have nobody believing in them any more, but Jainism is definitely not as bad”, then yeah!
That's not the point. Reading comprehension isn't a religion, so you are save to give it a try and still maintain your atheist title
Religion SHOULD be a thing to give people hope, enlightenment and make their lives more enjoyable. It should offer guidance on how to be a better person. Problem is that people want to force THEIR views on others. I'm a Christian and I have multiple friends who are aethiests. My best friend is a Jew. You know how many religious arguments (different from discussions) we've had? Zero. Nada. People use religion as a weapon. And that's wrong.
Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.
Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.
And it's worth saying that others use Atheism as a weapon as well, and it's just as wrong.
I am Christian and I have made quite a few number of posts talking about my faith in these threads, and I have no desire to repeat that here. In all my years on Dakka I have never called Atheists by any bad name. But in those same years I have watched a number of Atheists post on here about how Christians are stupid, ignorant, evil, a threat to the world, etc etc etc.
People who want to be dicks are going to be dicks, if they don't have religion to justify it they will find another way.
Some people are dicks because their religion makes them superior.
Some people are dicks because their nationality makes them superior.
Some people are dicks because their skin color makes them superior.
Some people are dicks because their sex makes them superior.
Some People are dicks because their wealth makes them superior.
Some people are from Texas.
I am an atheist. The older I get, the deeper and more entrenched my atheism gets, but only on a personal level. Some people have faith, and it gives them many great things. Other people dont, and do not lack any of these things. Do whatever works for you, put no one down for their belief or lack of belief and don't hurt anyone.
If religious and non religous people stuck to this then the world would certainly be a bit more pleasant!
Ace From Outer Space wrote: I am an atheist. The older I get, the deeper and more entrenched my atheism gets, but only on a personal level. Some people have faith, and it gives them many great things. Other people dont, and do not lack any of these things. Do whatever works for you, put no one down for their belief or lack of belief and don't hurt anyone.
If religious and non religous people stuck to this then the world would certainly be a bit more pleasant!
That is completely true, I think the wrong people will forever abuse Religion to control others for as long as it remains effect.
On a more personal not, please don't be offended, but as an atheist what do you believe will happen to you when you die? I read an article a while back (not sure if I could believe its findings) that said a fair proportion of atheists go back to praying to God on their deathbed. If such a being could be twaddle what do you think happens? - Apart from the obvious.
On a more personal not, please don't be offended, but as an atheist what do you believe will happen to you when you die? I read an article a while back (not sure if I could believe its findings) that said a fair proportion of atheists go back to praying to God on their deathbed. If such a being could be twaddle what do you think happens? - Apart from the obvious.
Atheist here.
Ever go in for any kind of operation that requires anesthesia? You know how it's kind of like shutting off a light - you're awake one moment, then awake the next, with absolutely nothing in between? That's what I think death is, sans the waking up part - just a cessation of any kind of awareness. Once the neurons that make up a person stop firing, that's it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/04 22:59:28
That article was indeed twattle(can we say that?). The cessation of consciousness is probably the simplest and easiest 'afterlife' to imagine or explain. Just imagine falling asleep, but never waking up and never dreaming, and you're not really there to know you're not dreaming. Just nothing. Fade to black. Poof. One minute you're alive, and the next-----
Sentinel1 wrote: On a more personal not, please don't be offended, but as an atheist what do you believe will happen to you when you die?
There is nothing even remotely offending about such a question asked in good faith!
And to answer it: I have no clue. What's described by the above posters seems the most likely thing though. But I definitely won't pretend that I know for a fact, or even that I have a strong conviction, that this is what happens.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
