Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

There's a thread for the Thousand Sons, and for the Custodes, but I didn't see one for the Rout, so I figured I'd start one to get thoughts about our new Legion rules.

I'm happy that they play different, but not enough to make me tear models apart to make them legal. Grey Slayers are excellent to me, for the same points as a Legion Tactical Squad you can run or shoot with bolters and still charge. Being able to put in a bunch of power weapons or a small number of fists or plasma pistols is nice too. Losing Fury of the Legion is a small trade off for that I think.

One question i have is that if I attach a character or apothecary to the unit do they lose the ability to charge after running or shooting?

Frost Weapons are nice but not earth shattering. The Aerthic Armor is great, adding a wound with a 2+ save and the bonus of rerolling deny the witch is nice.

I didn't expect the Priests of Fenris, I figured they'd just rename the Librarian and Chaplains. Limiting the Rune Priests' discipline choices and number of dice for manifesting a power hurts a bit but it's fluffy so I can get behind it.

I like the Deathsworn Pack, and I think I'll be building a pack to run around with my Wolf Priest. I'm not sold on the Wolf Guard Terminators. They're not bad, just costly. And not being able to be taken with the Blooded Claw RoW hurts them.

Speaking of Blooded Claw, I can see a lot of Wolf Players running this. There's not a huge downside to this and gaining a free Warlord Trait and Furious Charge for your Grey Slayers is huge. Add in Red Blade and your Grey Slayers and Assault squads can be in the enemy deployment zone on turn 1, turn 2 at the latest.

I think I'll be running Red Blade too. Preferred Enemy, scouting units and a +2 Str axe and a heavy Bolter? I like that and it should be a fun model to convert up.

Overall I'm excited about the list and really looking forward to putting some armies together.

Actually, you can take the Varagyr Termies with the bloodied claw RoW. Cataphractii Terminators in 30k don't have slow and purposeful. They have all the limitations and benefits of it, just not the rule itself. They did it to keep people from abusing the rule by putting a cata termie in say a heavy weapons squad and letting them move and fire.

 robotmankiller7 wrote:
Actually, you can take the Varagyr Termies with the bloodied claw RoW. Cataphractii Terminators in 30k don't have slow and purposeful. They have all the limitations and benefits of it, just not the rule itself. They did it to keep people from abusing the rule by putting a cata termie in say a heavy weapons squad and letting them move and fire.

The Varagyr Terminators just got a lot more appealing to me. For some reason I just assumed Cataphract Terminators were slow and purposeful. Thanks!

 Thanatos73 wrote:

 robotmankiller7 wrote:
Actually, you can take the Varagyr Termies with the bloodied claw RoW. Cataphractii Terminators in 30k don't have slow and purposeful. They have all the limitations and benefits of it, just not the rule itself. They did it to keep people from abusing the rule by putting a cata termie in say a heavy weapons squad and letting them move and fire.

The Varagyr Terminators just got a lot more appealing to me. For some reason I just assumed Cataphract Terminators were slow and purposeful. Thanks!

Well, I mean they basically do, they just don't have the rule by name on 'em. Just to stop Shenanigans ;P

Am I wrong or can they not play above 3000 points? Because of the HQ thing.

That or they ignore the Force Org Requirements for HQ Slots. Either way, one more thing in a list of things from this book that will need FAQ.

I've had a big smile since I saw the rules troops that are so versatile are very wolfy, I am happy with our destroyer unit but what really got a big smile was the terminators which are a unit I love anyway but these have some fun possibilities.

Kinda sad that there's no wulfen but not really surprising as they are front and centre in 40k currently.

Wulfen also didnt exist until after the Heresy.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Wulfen also didnt exist until after the Heresy.

Sorry your wrong there mate they are mentioned in the thousand sons book as being present, also other lore has had them following the thousand sons through portals straight after the traitors fled.

Wulfen were the 13th company formed from the warriors Russ knew before the allfather came, it was amongst them that the first wulfen manifested during the dulan campaign.

The 13th Company weren't Wulfen when the Battle of Prospero started. And i dont recall them being in A Thousand Sons at all beyond maybe a mention of some of them mutating during the fighting as a result of sorcery.

Either way, there either weren't any, or there weren't enough of them for the worst part of the Space Wolves to be given 30k rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
WAIT, Sorry. I forgot about that story where the Raptors (who are also awful mutants) meat the Wulfen.

I'm really excited to run the Varagyr Terminators in a spartan with Russ.

I had a lot of hope for these guys until I read one characteristic that soured the entire unit for me: Wounds 1 (2 on the Thegn). Crushing Charge is awesome, until you realize that it only works on a Charge move of at least 6"- so if you don't move at least 6", no Hammer of Wrath for you. Last part that really bummed me out: Lordsbane. Why include a special rule that can only affect one model at a time in the unit, and only if they win the challenge? Ignoring how wonky and bad challenges work in the first place, this has got to be one of the worst special rules you could possibly give to a terminator unit. On top of that, Bestial Savagery only triggers if they successfully charge, and too bad Cataphracti Terminators can't sweeping advance. They don't get Hunter's Gait, and Preternatural Senses is a "meh" ability at best. I do like that they cause Fear, are stubborn, and have Implacable Advance. Their two biggest advantages are Fear and Frost Weapons, but I don't think that's worth 270 points.

Compare these guys to The Red Butchers for 275 points- 2 wounds each, hit EVERYTHING on a 3+, reroll charge distances, Fearless, Hatred (Everything), and Feel no Pain(6+), and all the other World Eater's special rules. So, ummmm... why am I paying premium points for what might possibly be some of the worst Terminators in 30K? Oh yeah- "I have a Frost Weapon!"

 Tamwulf wrote:
I had a lot of hope for these guys until I read one characteristic that soured the entire unit for me: Wounds 1 (2 on the Thegn). Crushing Charge is awesome, until you realize that it only works on a Charge move of at least 6"- so if you don't move at least 6", no Hammer of Wrath for you. Last part that really bummed me out: Lordsbane. Why include a special rule that can only affect one model at a time in the unit, and only if they win the challenge? Ignoring how wonky and bad challenges work in the first place, this has got to be one of the worst special rules you could possibly give to a terminator unit. On top of that, Bestial Savagery only triggers if they successfully charge, and too bad Cataphracti Terminators can't sweeping advance. They don't get Hunter's Gait, and Preternatural Senses is a "meh" ability at best. I do like that they cause Fear, are stubborn, and have Implacable Advance. Their two biggest advantages are Fear and Frost Weapons, but I don't think that's worth 270 points.

Compare these guys to The Red Butchers for 275 points- 2 wounds each, hit EVERYTHING on a 3+, reroll charge distances, Fearless, Hatred (Everything), and Feel no Pain(6+), and all the other World Eater's special rules. So, ummmm... why am I paying premium points for what might possibly be some of the worst Terminators in 30K? Oh yeah- "I have a Frost Weapon!"

I think I agree they, to me, seem to be the least impressive of the 3 Units. I like the Grey Slayers, shooting Bolters and charging is a cool concept to me. Their melee destroyers are interesting for fleshbane and Frost Greatweapons. Oh and while he's not a unit, I like their Tart Armored Lord with a Heavy Bolter.

I had my first game today with the new rules against a local Thousand Sons player. I had Russ, Red Blade, a Speaker for the Dead, Master of the Signal, two Grey Slayer packs in Rhinos, one support squad with Calivers, a Deredeo with the Las Cannons, Spartan, Storm Eagle and 10 man Tartaros.

It was a list built with the Generic Legion rules and just plugged in to try the new rules. I did use the Blooded Claw RoW.

Grey Slayers can be amazing but I think they shine in big squads with lots of power weapon and fists. Running them 10 strong in a Rhino seems like a waste. Calivers were a go to for me in my old lists but I found myself wanting more Grey Slayers or an assault squad.

Red Blade is good, but I think he excels more as the Warlord so he can use his trait to full advantage. Russ is a beat stick but I really underestimated Sekhmet Terminators with invisibility. Holy crap can they tank.

Overall I had a fun time but I need to modify the list a lot. I see the Rout running big units with melee upgrades to really punish the enemy when they make it in. The more I look at the Deathsworn the more I want a unit led by a Speaker for the Dead. Still not sold on the Wolfguard Terminators, they just seem to have missed the mark with them.

My rule of thumb is always take two 20-man Legion Tactical Squads on foot in every list. After that, I'll add a Support Squad or Assault Squad or whatever in a Rhino to get around and capture objectives or whatever. It looks like that rule of thumb applies to the Space Wolves too. It's an insurance policy- it's incredibly difficult to remove 42 Space Marines with Feel No Pain (I always take Apothecaries for all my Troops).

The Grey Slayers are AWESOME. Sure, Veterans have just as many options, but they are Elites, while Grey Slayers are troops! And you can take 20 of them! I can totally see 10 of them with bolters up front, and 10 armed for close combat, with Apothecaries, walking up the table.

Space Wolves basically get a Veteran Squad as a Compulsory Troop Choice just for being Space Wolves. That's awesome!

Russ is a beast. That's my main thought!

To me the Deathsworn are the most inpresive unique unit to the Space Wolves. 2+ armour, Rad granades, 4 attacks on the charge, +1 WS on the Charge, FNP with a Speake of the Dead plus his other buffs - a very inpresive unit. And with the Pale Hunter you can get Hit&Run. The grey slayers are also great with being able to charge afther shooting or running.
One interesting thing I've noticed - Geigor has a sword on his model, but no rules for it. Strange.

Tamwulf - you need to re-read the rules for red butchers.
They are actually terrible.

Ravening madmen rule makes them hit as normal, but enemy units hit THEM on a 3+ no matter what.
The can't capture atall.

Ranged weapons are limited to a combi bolter.





Why you would want any unit like that I don't know, in terms of legion specific terminators, they are one of the worst.

The pups aren't too bad off with their terminators.
While not firedrakes, they are good still.

 Jackal wrote:



Why you would want any unit like that I don't know, in terms of legion specific terminators, they are one of the worst.

The pups aren't too bad off with their terminators.
While not firedrakes, they are good still.

Probably still among the bottom tier as far as Legion Specifics though, while admittedly not the very bottom.

 Jackal wrote:
Tamwulf - you need to re-read the rules for red butchers.
They are actually terrible.

I don't think any WE player has ever said this. You don't take Butchers to shoot or hold objectives, or with the idea that they're going to survive the battle.

NivlacSupreme wrote:
Am I wrong or can they not play above 3000 points? Because of the HQ thing.

Would it be 4000? Russ' Wolves count as an HQ and do not take up an HQ slot so I assume they count (don't see anything stating they wouldn't).

Player a game against these guys last night, 2500 Alpha Legion vs Space Puppies.
He ran 2 15 man troops (what ever theyre called)
1 5 man support squad with plasma in a rhino
1 Land Raider with a 5 man Terminator (the space wolves ones) with claws
1 Land raider with 5 stock standard vets, Russ, and a plain Centurion
1 Vindicator
Gotta say, they're pretty deadly once they make combat, I was running a Recon company list so was set up for mostly mid to close range combat myself.
Russ is just an absolute prick to deal with, he charged into my squad with Alpharius in it. And while I did hold him up for a solid 3 turns....it really is an uphill battle, hitting on 6's with a primarch fething sucks.

sm3g wrote:

NivlacSupreme wrote:
Am I wrong or can they not play above 3000 points? Because of the HQ thing.

Would it be 4000? Russ' Wolves count as an HQ and do not take up an HQ slot so I assume they count (don't see anything stating they wouldn't).

Player a game against these guys last night, 2500 Alpha Legion vs Space Puppies.
He ran 2 15 man troops (what ever theyre called)
1 5 man support squad with plasma in a rhino
1 Land Raider with a 5 man Terminator (the space wolves ones) with claws
1 Land raider with 5 stock standard vets, Russ, and a plain Centurion
1 Vindicator
Gotta say, they're pretty deadly once they make combat, I was running a Recon company list so was set up for mostly mid to close range combat myself.
Russ is just an absolute prick to deal with, he charged into my squad with Alpharius in it. And while I did hold him up for a solid 3 turns....it really is an uphill battle, hitting on 6's with a primarch fething sucks.

The whole thing neads FAQed. It's not clear whether Geigor or the other guy count as praetors.

NivlacSupreme wrote:

sm3g wrote:

NivlacSupreme wrote:
Am I wrong or can they not play above 3000 points? Because of the HQ thing.

Would it be 4000? Russ' Wolves count as an HQ and do not take up an HQ slot so I assume they count (don't see anything stating they wouldn't).

Player a game against these guys last night, 2500 Alpha Legion vs Space Puppies.
He ran 2 15 man troops (what ever theyre called)
1 5 man support squad with plasma in a rhino
1 Land Raider with a 5 man Terminator (the space wolves ones) with claws
1 Land raider with 5 stock standard vets, Russ, and a plain Centurion
1 Vindicator
Gotta say, they're pretty deadly once they make combat, I was running a Recon company list so was set up for mostly mid to close range combat myself.
Russ is just an absolute prick to deal with, he charged into my squad with Alpharius in it. And while I did hold him up for a solid 3 turns....it really is an uphill battle, hitting on 6's with a primarch fething sucks.

The whole thing neads FAQed. It's not clear whether Geigor or the other guy count as praetors.

Whats not clear? They both have Master of the Legion.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

NivlacSupreme wrote:

sm3g wrote:

NivlacSupreme wrote:
Am I wrong or can they not play above 3000 points? Because of the HQ thing.

Would it be 4000? Russ' Wolves count as an HQ and do not take up an HQ slot so I assume they count (don't see anything stating they wouldn't).

Player a game against these guys last night, 2500 Alpha Legion vs Space Puppies.
He ran 2 15 man troops (what ever theyre called)
1 5 man support squad with plasma in a rhino
1 Land Raider with a 5 man Terminator (the space wolves ones) with claws
1 Land raider with 5 stock standard vets, Russ, and a plain Centurion
1 Vindicator
Gotta say, they're pretty deadly once they make combat, I was running a Recon company list so was set up for mostly mid to close range combat myself.
Russ is just an absolute prick to deal with, he charged into my squad with Alpharius in it. And while I did hold him up for a solid 3 turns....it really is an uphill battle, hitting on 6's with a primarch fething sucks.

The whole thing neads FAQed. It's not clear whether Geigor or the other guy count as praetors.

Whats not clear? They both have Master of the Legion.

Does it actually ever say that? And there are a whole host of other problems...

NivlacSupreme wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

NivlacSupreme wrote:

sm3g wrote:

NivlacSupreme wrote:
Am I wrong or can they not play above 3000 points? Because of the HQ thing.

Would it be 4000? Russ' Wolves count as an HQ and do not take up an HQ slot so I assume they count (don't see anything stating they wouldn't).

Player a game against these guys last night, 2500 Alpha Legion vs Space Puppies.
He ran 2 15 man troops (what ever theyre called)
1 5 man support squad with plasma in a rhino
1 Land Raider with a 5 man Terminator (the space wolves ones) with claws
1 Land raider with 5 stock standard vets, Russ, and a plain Centurion
1 Vindicator
Gotta say, they're pretty deadly once they make combat, I was running a Recon company list so was set up for mostly mid to close range combat myself.
Russ is just an absolute prick to deal with, he charged into my squad with Alpharius in it. And while I did hold him up for a solid 3 turns....it really is an uphill battle, hitting on 6's with a primarch fething sucks.

The whole thing neads FAQed. It's not clear whether Geigor or the other guy count as praetors.

Whats not clear? They both have Master of the Legion.

Does it actually ever say that? And there are a whole host of other problems...

It does, under their special rules. But yes, the book does have several issues.

So just calculated, in a 2500 point game Russ was responsible for killing 1215 points:
Alpharius
Recon Squad (10 dudes, might have been 8 by tthe time of combat i cannot remember)
Exodus
Praetor on Bike
Apothecary
Apothecary on Bike
Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought

NOt to mention came out the other end with 4 wounds still remaining.

I'm struggling to come to terms with the fact that, without Warrior's Mettle, Grey Slayer's are hamstrung by the joining of a Priest. Sad, since PE: Infantry and FnP seems like an intended no brainer on a twenty man pack.

SublimeShadow wrote:
I'm struggling to come to terms with the fact that, without Warrior's Mettle, Grey Slayer's are hamstrung by the joining of a Priest. Sad, since PE: Infantry and FnP seems like an intended no brainer on a twenty man pack.

That didn't even click when I played last night! Damn! THat is a bit lame.

sm3g wrote:

SublimeShadow wrote:
I'm struggling to come to terms with the fact that, without Warrior's Mettle, Grey Slayer's are hamstrung by the joining of a Priest. Sad, since PE: Infantry and FnP seems like an intended no brainer on a twenty man pack.

That didn't even click when I played last night! Damn! THat is a bit lame.

Hard to take it as an accident on FW's part, since Fell-Hand does have it. Shame really. Deathsworn, support squads, and terminators seem to be the place to put them without sacrificing Warrior's Mettle.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

NivlacSupreme wrote:

sm3g wrote:

NivlacSupreme wrote:
Am I wrong or can they not play above 3000 points? Because of the HQ thing.

Would it be 4000? Russ' Wolves count as an HQ and do not take up an HQ slot so I assume they count (don't see anything stating they wouldn't).

Player a game against these guys last night, 2500 Alpha Legion vs Space Puppies.
He ran 2 15 man troops (what ever theyre called)
1 5 man support squad with plasma in a rhino
1 Land Raider with a 5 man Terminator (the space wolves ones) with claws
1 Land raider with 5 stock standard vets, Russ, and a plain Centurion
1 Vindicator
Gotta say, they're pretty deadly once they make combat, I was running a Recon company list so was set up for mostly mid to close range combat myself.
Russ is just an absolute prick to deal with, he charged into my squad with Alpharius in it. And while I did hold him up for a solid 3 turns....it really is an uphill battle, hitting on 6's with a primarch fething sucks.

The whole thing neads FAQed. It's not clear whether Geigor or the other guy count as praetors.

Whats not clear? They both have Master of the Legion.

Not all characters with MotL are Praetor Equivalents though, and it matters for the purpose of taking Fenrisians Wolves. Some people will want them to count as Praetors ruleswise so they can accompany them with pet wolves for coolness' sake. Currently they technically can't.

I must admit that it'd be kind if FW come out and say that Geigor is intended to not be able to take Wolves, even though his page shows him accompanied with one.