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How do you feel about playing against a space marine army painted as a certain chapter but uses a chapter tactics from another?

And do tournaments usually allow this?

ThunderfireMac wrote:
How do you feel about playing against a space marine army painted as a certain chapter but uses a chapter tactics from another?

And do tournaments usually allow this?

I wouldn't care and I plan on doing the same.

It's allowed, but it isn't fluffy.

Fluffy is akin to cool and the rule of cool always trumps army performance in my book.

I’d rather they be played as painted, but am OK with whatever.

Why should someone who put the time and effort into painting their armies be penalized over someone playing the grey hordes, who can switch at a whim?

It depends. (I say that a lot). I'm with Nevelon, but I would struggle a bit with - say - Blue Marines as Blood Angels.

Rule of cool works.

But - why not paint them a "neutral" marine colour, and then play them as successor chapters of red, blue, green, black, white, etc...?

In 5th edition, the majority of the local game store had Ultramarines/darkangels/blood angels/any chapter played as Space Wolves. It was depressing

How well painted is your army? Are you planning on buying another army soon and want to test out the rules? Thats fine. As long as the army is nice to look at and the player is friendly - I wouldnt have an issue

Rune Priest and Space Wolf Grey Hunters counting as Sternguard and pedro? No.

No idea on tournaments.

I wouldn't care much as long as you have the right models and don't start confusing your rules.

Is it cooler to have models painted right? Absolutely. Would I paint an entirely new army if I wanted to play as an SM army, vs using models I already had painted well as BA and then painting any additional models in BA colors? Absolutely not, I'd use my BA(but not their unique models like SG and DC). And then you'd see BA centurions.

That's why you play your own chapter, then you can play it as whatever you want. The Space Marine army I've been looking at doing is basically a 'shattered legion' type army

it took me a long as feth time to paint my entire army. Im not repainting them again just to use different chapter tactics. Everyone i play against is the same way. Sure, they're ultramarine painted, but today they aren't! They're UltraMaRaptors!

I have absolutely no problem with that kind of things and thankfully nobody in my group does either. Allowing that kind of proxy allows freedom of choice in the options you have to play the game. It gives you more to play and more for others to play against.

I personally have my army painted as Imperial Fists as they are my favorite chapter in the lore. However I dislike their chapter tactics and very rarely run them as actual Imperial Fists. I would be honestly off put by someone who would not be ok with me running them as another chapter because they are yellow.

In 40K, I don't care anymore. Paint them all Ultramarines and use what ever rules you want. Heck, use Necron rules for them. I don't care if you use a Storm Raven as a Thunderhawk, though I may ask which Thunderhawk rules you are using. I don't even care anymore when my opponent says he needs 2+ to hit in close combat, or whatever other rules they care to use. My apathy and cynicism towards 40K has reached those levels.

Now if we are talking 30K, then I'm steadfast in my view: You paint your Legion in Legion colors, then that's the Legion you are using. And no, your choices are one of 18 Legions, Solar Auxilla, Knight Houses, or Mechanicum. Possibly some Daemons if you are playing Word Bearers. 30K is about as close as Epic Space Fantasy in the Grim Dark Future can get to historical gaming.

As a side note, I whole heartedly support the idea of 40K getting the Age of Sigmar treatment and 30K continuing on with modified 7th edition rules.

Do they have the right guns? Do they have the right vehicles?

Game on, as far as I am concerned.

Tournaments? I don't really care, but you should check with the TO.

Is it even possible to identify a chapter using only its colours? I always thought that successor chapters can use whatever colours they please.

 Ginjitzu wrote:
Is it even possible to identify a chapter using only its colours? I always thought that successor chapters can use whatever colours they please.

Successors yes, but traditionally red = BA, dark green = DA, bright green = Salamanders, etc.

It's fine by me.

If the guy who has kept his marines a pristine gray or eternally primed black can pick whatever tactics he wants, the guy who's put the effort forward to paint his dudes certainly can.

It has been said, and I'll supprt this too.

In casual games, with friends or at the store, I wouldn't mid much. I am not expecting somebody who painted his Space Marines as Ultramarines to suddenly start spraying them green because that would be the only way to test the Dark Angls or Salamanders rules. Heck, it might even be just that, a test. This could cause somebody who tests the rules might have plans to really start a new army. I know I did!

As far as tournaments are concerned, contact the Tournament Organiser. If the flyer or website or other information doesn't mention this, it might be something worth asking. Most tournaments are strict about WYSIWYG. If I see Ultramarines, I might expect to get Ultramarines. Not Black Templars. Nor White Scars. I do think this is a part of WYSIWYG as well.

Its allowed but it is kinda meh, and also obviously that you care more about having the best rules rather than a fluffy army.

As long as they are clear about it and their list matches the other chapter's rules, I don't care.

Hell, use Space Wolf minis in order to play Grey Knights if you really want-- as long as you model your puppies to at least try to match WYSIWYG.

So if playing a painted army - for instance, ultramarines - and using white scars rules is against WYSIWYG, then that means using an unpainted army would also be against WYSIWYG, as would any color scheme that doesn't match what is defined in the books.

Oh, that's a cool Gold-Green-Purple colored army. It's not WYSIWYG, so you can't play in my tournament.

Why is your own chapter more "fluffy" than "Blue Scars," "Blue Angels," etc. I feel like people toss "fluffy" around not just as a point of pride, but a way to judge and be derisive towards other players.

I mean I have my army painted like ultra marines but hate ultramarine chapter tactics so I normal use them as Iron Hands.

Would using another chapter's tactics even really be all that bad, fluff wise? Baring a couple chapters, they're all running out of the same book (and I think even guys like wolves use some of the actual tactics, they just tell the codex to go take a hike when it talks about organization), so I don't really see why an ultramarine captain can't say "Ok, these orks have us outnumbered, and we're going to be hitting their warboss and his mob head-on. 3rd, 5th, 6th squads will move in on bikes to distract them and open a hole in thier line, then I'll lead 1st and 2nd through the gap to take out the warboss" as a justification for why you're fielding a force of Ultramarine bikers using white scars tactics.

I wouldn't mind my opponent doing that, but I just wouldn't do it myself.

If I paint Ultramarines, I'll take their rules. Whatever they currently are. I value the storytelling aspect in beer&pretzel games and that is ruined when my Ultramarines 'feel very Fisty today'.

I will also never believe 40K can be played in any fair and competitive way, so I have absolutely no reason to 'need' different rules to have a chance at winning. If I want to win, I ask a friend who plays Tyranids for a game and bring some AA.

 Marmatag wrote:
So if playing a painted army - for instance, ultramarines - and using white scars rules is against WYSIWYG, then that means using an unpainted army would also be against WYSIWYG, as would any color scheme that doesn't match what is defined in the books.

Oh, that's a cool Gold-Green-Purple colored army. It's not WYSIWYG, so you can't play in my tournament.

Why is your own chapter more "fluffy" than "Blue Scars," "Blue Angels," etc. I feel like people toss "fluffy" around not just as a point of pride, but a way to judge and be derisive towards other players.

True.

Of course, I never organized such a tournament, and I played in one, where all the fun was ripped out of it for a lot of players because WYSIWYG wasn't enforced, and the reigning Chaos Space Marines army was reinforced by a shoe box with a couple of lascannons modeled taped to its sides as a Land Raider, three units of Chaos Space Marines were clearly one unit of Blood Angels, one unit of actual Chaos Space Marines painted with four different colours within the unit, and the third unit wasn't even GW, but a unit built using unpainted models from the XXX Century Warriors box...



Like I (sort of but not literally) said, people see something, and expect it to match something. In casual, you can put your Necrons on the table, and with the opponent's consent play them as Blood Angels. Call them Silver Angels if you like to, if the Necron models are sprayed silver and nothing is done with them besides a basic spray job. But a Tournament Organizer or a tournament player might as well like to apply WYSIWYG to a colour scheme if that matters for rules used, such as with specific Space Marine chapters with GW pre-defined colour schemes, and matching rules that differ from other GW pre-determined chapters and their colour schemes and their rules.

But let's face it, some unpainted models might still be recognizable for what they are. WYSIWYG without paint. Let me stress that a little. If somebody hands me a grey plastic Space Marine, and it has been constructed with a shoulder pad that bears an Omega symbol, a crested helmet and that roman-style leather strips thing in front of their crotch, all from the Ultramarines Upgrade sprue pack... I might assume the model to be an Ultramarine without paint on it. Unpainted models using Space Wolves parts, or Blood Angels iconography might also be recognizable without paint.

Well that's fair, but you're extrapolating this into proxies far beyond just color scheme.

Necrons as "Silver Angels" is obviously a bit of as stretch. But ultramarines as white scars, for instance - they're drawing from the same exact pool. If they want to use Khan then there'd be a proxy involved, or, just get Khan and paint him blue.

I mean the hobby is about rules but also creativity, and restricting colors to WYSIWYG just seems punitive. Are we going to get down to the literal pigmentation of colors?

"Oh I see you mixed blue and white to make light blue, well, that's not Macragge blue...."

A friend of mine accidentally assembled a dreadnought with one of the legs backwards. So, he painted it with all sorts of stupid colors and made it look like it had eons of pidgeon waste. We may get a small plastic seagull and glue it on top to complete the effect. I mean it has BA markings, but it's clearly not WYSIWYG, technically, because dreadnoughts don't have one backwards leg.

WYSIWYG should exist to make the game clearer and easier to play, not prohibitive.

Also true, but then again, I wouldn't mind in a casual game. Just tell me, so there are no surprises.

Nowadays I just tend to avoid tournaments due to the WAAC mentality, uninspired Internet-Win-lists, and the rather wide berth given to organizers. One enforces strict WYSIWYG, including specific paint schemes, others seem to run as wild as an unbound army containing Tyranid Warriors, Blood Angels Terminators, Eldar Rangers and a pluche spider toy taped to a microwave plate lid as a stand-in for a Defiler. I know a Space Marine is a Space Marine and as such it is easier to see and accept one Chapter as another (love your Blue Angels, where I can add that this succesor Chapter descended from Blood Angels while they onlt recruit from a planet's nobility, or the Blue-Bloods ;-) ). That rather than Eldar standing in for Adeptus Mechanicus, or Necrons as Space Wolves, or..., or..., or...

Also, both below are Ultramarines...



Let's not get into pigmentation issues here. I think were are actually on the same page here, but we're not seeing that. Yet.

I think so.

Ultimately Everyone wants a fun gaming experience. Playing against a shoebox with lascannons isn't super fun.

Some things I can look past, for instance, if you were to play Blue Angels, and you had a specific BA independent character, but painted him blue, that would actually add to the effect, and could be used to create a cool narrative.

If i were to play Blue Scars, or Blueperial Fists, i'd paint Khan/Lysander in blue and gold. Because why not? Someone threw a quarter into the warp, and butterfly effect jacked up spacetime, changing white (or yellow, in Blueperial fist case) to blue.

I hate it when people do this. Shows they have no passion for their dudes, just chasing a win. In a tournament I can understand, but a game with your mate? You should be ashamed at the lack of respect for your chapter.

 Rippy wrote:
I hate it when people do this. Shows they have no passion for their dudes, just chasing a win. In a tournament I can understand, but a game with your mate? You should be ashamed at the lack of respect for your chapter.

Yeah, how dare people try to win a game where the goal is to build a winning list and then defeat your opponent with it.

 Nevelon wrote:
I’d rather they be played as painted, but am OK with whatever.

Why should someone who put the time and effort into painting their armies be penalized over someone playing the grey hordes, who can switch at a whim?

Realistically, by simply removing some of the things from Chapter Tactics and making them simply part of Codex: Space Marines' special rules then the reasons for people to "switch at a whim" would be gone.

"Bolter Drill"? Make it a flat bonus for Codex: Space Marines. Give a benefit to Imperial Fists where they get to reroll all To Hit rolls and not just 1's.
"Winged Deliverance"? Same. Make it so Raven Guard units get something else entirely. That one has, IMO, never really fit.
"Scions of Guilliman"? Removed. It's ridiculous that you need to take specific Formations, Detachments, or Chapter to use one of the army's special rules( "Combat Doctrines"). Give Ultramarines something else entirely. Maybe Champion of Humanity, Rites of War, or Storm of Fire Warlord traits as applying to all models with the Character unit type.

I don't know what to do with White Scars, but the FAQ has definitely fixed that nonsense. Now models from other Space Marine factions(Blood Angels, Dark Angels, etc) remove Chapter Tactics.

Q: Do Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights and Dark
Angels all count as having Chapter Tactics for the purposes
of joining allied Space Marine units? That is, does my
Ultramarines unit lose the benefits of Chapter Tactics if they are
joined by Mephiston?
A: If a unit from any of these Factions joins a unit with
the Space Marines Faction, or vice versa, neither unit
benefits from Chapter Tactics.

I find it silly that those who took the time to paint their minis are essentially locked out of using a full collection. I'd love to try a list using rave guard tactics with my assault marines, but people get weird about it. Or a bunch of tactical and devastator marines using imperial fist tactics.

My collection is painted as ultramarines, which I started in 5th edition. At the time I converted and painted ultramarine models for the special characters in the book so I could try different tactics and lists.

I hope they go for more generic chapter tactics in the next book that while potentially based on the fluff of particular chapters aren't based on the decals you put on your models but rather a choice in list building.