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Made in us
Sergeant Major




Pennsylvania

Aztec vs Swiss
A L'Art de la Guerre Battle Report

In an alternate reality, the Aztecs and Inca's squashed the Conquistadors, expanded their empires, crushing the Mayans in their wake, and now maintain an uneasy truce at the what we know of as the Isthmus of Panama.

The Spaniards, still feeling the lure of untold riches, and not seeing the obvious flaw in their plan, hires a Swiss mercenary company to conquer the heathen nations.

https://philonancients.blogspot.com/2017/02/aztecvsswiss.html

Enjoy

In the ultimate, victory through excess was cheaper than defeat without waste. 
   
Made in us
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver






Interesting report. Both sides interest me historically, and I have thought about building each army in the past.

Kings of War: Abyssal Dwarves, Dwarves, Elves, Undead, Northern Alliance [WiP], Nightstalkers [WiP]
Dropzone Commander: PHR
Kill Team: Deathwatch AdMech Necron

My Games Played 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






State of Jefferson

Well.... that was just bizarre.

I bought L'Arte de la Guerre, since your last post. Thumbing through it, I must say its a pretty intriguing game. Do you think most play it at your reduced scale? What is that? 10mm? I thought the idea of a "Camp" was pretty cool from a hobbiest perspective (making a diorama!). Where do you source your minis? What two armies would you suggest I start with? What scale? Thanks for your posts!

Oh and dude.... do you need me to make you some terrain?
   
Made in us
Sergeant Major




Pennsylvania

I built the Early Swiss (no pike) based on WRG rev 6 rules set, where they would have kicked butt. But Rev 7 came out and the shieldless penalty made them unusable. So they have sat on the shelf for 30 years till now. They work well as long as your opponents are not knights. Then they have problems.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/13 21:01:39


In the ultimate, victory through excess was cheaper than defeat without waste. 
   
Made in us
Sergeant Major




Pennsylvania

"Do you think most play it at your reduced scale?"
All my L'Art de la Guerre games so far have been 15/18mm. The why of that seems to be historical, as most of the gamers playing ALDG seem to have come from Fields of Glory and DBM, which was dominated by that scale. My history is a bit longer and I have about 6 armies in 25mm as well, which is the dominant scale for "Warrior". This was an evolutionary process, as the 15mm Warrior players migrated to DBM, then FOG, then back to DBM. Thus creating a filter of game system over scale.
Looking at Mad Axemans battle reports, I would say over in Europe, the mix of 25mm /15mm is about 30/70. But that is just a guess.

So, if there is no-one in your area, and you are under a economic constraint, you may want to try 10mm, so you can build two armies easily enough. And while you could play against a 15mm army, 10mm uses the same sized bases, just double the number of figures, it wouldn't look right.

"...cool from a hobbiest perspective (making a diorama!)"
A 10mm camp however would look ok, as it could be full of tiny figures. I have see camps with animal pens, rows of tents, dancing girls. Really nice dioramas. Then, there are my camps...;}


"Where do you source your minis?"
I finished my last 15mm painted army in the '90's, my Anglo-Irish. So most of the figures you see have been battered in boxes for over 30 years. They are bent, have broken spears and ankles beyond counting. They are well loved toys, not display pieces.

However I am now painting up 3 fresh armies using Jamie Fishes "Thistle and Rose" line, but I bought them over 20 years ago, then lost interest in painting them, due to Warrior moving on to 25mm scale, see above. But they are perfect for L'Art de la Guerre. Hordes of Early Germans, Mithradaitics and Gaul’s will soon be flooding the boards. Jamie stopped producing that line over 10 years ago, but there is a web site, run by the “Mad Axeman”, that is doing a better job of hobby support than I, and has a page dedicated to a list of suppliers of figures at. http://www.madaxeman.com/main/15mm_ancients_suppliers.php


"What two armies would you suggest I start with?
You should pick armies based on your preferred style of play. If you are methodical, go heavy infantry, like Roman or Greek. Like to charge in there and mix it up, go Knights. Like the steadiness of foot (4 hits per unit) with more hitting power, go 2 handed weapons or Impetuous, Early Germans, Anglo Irish. Like to play in terrain, go loose order, Vikings, Gaul’s, Irish, Scotts. Elephants? Indian. Good solid Cavalry, but with control, Byzantine or Mongol.
It really depends on your style. If you like to play with Tiger Tanks, your temperament would be suited to either Knights, Parthians or Palmyrans. If you like Stuarts and Sherman’s, then Mongols and Byzantines. Combined arms, go Roman or Low Countries.


"What scale?"
What your local group is using. I would default to 15mm otherwise.


Thanks for your posts!
You’re Welcome. Feedback provides me with incentive to do more.

Oh and dude.... do you need me to make you some terrain?
Oh dude, burn.....

Seriously, Ancients players often get chided on having lousy, even ugly terrain. "Felt Warriors" is probably the kinder derogatory name I’ve heard. My terrain is actually a step up from the “Ancients” norm. I have depth on them. Our local group is trying to hang "Gully Man" on me as a nickname, as that ugly piece is in every game of L'Art de la Guerre I play.

There are valid reasons or this over other games. It is because with ancients, we actually have to play on our terrain. With large units. We don’t hide behind them for cover, we have groups of units, up to 10” long that have to move through the brush, woods and fields. This is not a couple of independent tanks, with a range of 32”, where their exact position can be altered a bit to fit the trees. Our groups of units are most effective if they are edge to edge in a straight line. As you can see on my sloped hills, this is difficult. (note to self, take the styrofoam cutter to that hill)

Then there is transportability. With Ancients the placement of the terrain is a game in itself. Getting favorable terrain can make or break an army. It is an adversarial system. If you want terrain, and you are going to your opponent’s house, he is under no obligation to provide it for you, so you must transport what you need yourself. Try transporting this landscape: https://philsmartianfront.blogspot.com/2017/02/the-second-battle-of-sheboygan.html

A couple of boxes at least. Over top of your army.

A few pieces of felt take no room what so ever.

The second reason is effort. Ancient armies using Warrior™, DBM, and FOG were more than twice as large as an army with L'Art de la Guerre. After all that effort, you just want to play. So terrain fell by the wayside. Can I make nice woods, which I cannot put any units in, or 3 more Cataphracts for my next great army?

That ugly gully of mine? That is a piece of precision engineering especially made for L'Art de la Guerre. The gap in the center will fit a 4 element group exactly, while meeting the maximum length of 240mm. And it looks like an ugly gash in the ground. It also transports easily, and is rugged.

I actually do have a nice selection of terrain available to me, but they are too large for L'Art de la Guerre. Which has a 9.5” limit all round.

Thanks,
Phil


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/13 14:51:04


In the ultimate, victory through excess was cheaper than defeat without waste. 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






State of Jefferson

My play style is contradictory. Im McClellan when I should be JEB Stuart. I'm Patton when I should be Kutsov. I am the Charge of the Light Brigade and Custer's division rolled into one.

I will read up on the terrain placement. That seems a little weird to do the terrain like that (B.Y.O.T.).

I have always thought Carthage v Rome would be fun. Elephants and Phalanxes or Torugas or whatever they were.

Still I think your terrain needs some updating. Send me specs. Maybe I can work something out.
   
Made in us
Sergeant Major




Pennsylvania

The specs for most of the area pieces of terrain are that the entire piece must fit within a 240mm circle and a 80x120mm rectangle must fit within it. There are limits to how many pieces can be placed, in total and by type. This depends on the region you are fighting in. They are Plains (the most common) Mountains, Forest, Stepps and Desert. The terrain types are fields(max 3), plantations(max 2), forests(max 3), hills(steep and gentile, max 3) gully (max 1), impassable(max 1), brush.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/14 13:17:27


In the ultimate, victory through excess was cheaper than defeat without waste. 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






State of Jefferson

So, every time you go to a buddys place to play, you bring 17 different pieces of terrain?

3x Fields (whiskery wheat looking door mats)
2x Plantations (black coregatted rubber backed door mats).
3x Forests (Felt with weighted model RR trees)
3x Gentle Hills
3x Steep Hills
1x Impassible
1x Gully (difficult to model)
?x Brush (Felt with lichen scatter I guess)

Why does it seem like your terrain is always in your own backfield? Why not place forward as a barrier for opponent or in their movement/LOS?

I decided I am going to go for Romans and Carthagenians. I want to buy Hail Cesaer before I purchase minis so I can base for both games.

What does DBM stand for?.

Would you help me make a well balanced 2 army list of Romans and Carthaginians for LADG? Maybe 200pts each side?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/14 16:25:58


 
   
Made in us
Sergeant Major




Pennsylvania

Not quite that much, since I pretty much know what region I am going to play in. If my opponent has any say so, and most have higher initiative bonuses, so they will, I'll be defending in the plains. And for that I'll select a gully, a gentle hill, and a field. I used to go more dense, adding a pair of plantations. Or a coastal zone. The Hills are what I say they are, steep or gentle, so I carry 3. I have a number of grassy mats that is a field, and hedge row pieces that convert the field to a plantation. The coastal area is blue felt, with rubberized edging.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why does it seem like your terrain is always in your own backfield? In L' Art de Guerre, the terrain "battle" is like this. Roll for Initiative. Winner selects if he is defending in his region, or is attacking in your region.
Defender selects 2-4 terrain pieces from that regions list.
Attacker select 2-4 remaining choices from that regions list.
Defender places his terrain. This is done by dice pairs. Board is marked of in 6ths. Hextants, maybe? pick a piece, roll two dice, first die is the Hextant, second die, on a 1-4 means it must be touching the edge of the table, 5-6 means it can go deeper.
Attacker places all his terrain.
Attacker then gets "adjust" the position of 0-3 terrain pieces. The number depending on conditions.
Defender then gets "adjust" the position of 0-3 terrain pieces. The number depending on conditions.

And that is why you don't see many middle of the field barriers. And historically that is what you saw on ancients battlefields. Open areas with bits of irregularities around them.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
DBM, De Bellis Multitudinis, an ancients game system developed by WRG's Phil Barker. In size and scale it represents armies with about double the number of figure as L' Art de Guerre. FOG stands for Fields of Glory. Another Ancients game system.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Romans are always a good pick. Solid steady foot troops. Resistant to shock infantry. Against mounted there are problems. Usually you rely on reserves and outlasting the cavalry as legions take 4 hits, and cavalry take 3. Carthaginians allow for expansion as they have mercenary types in the army. Which then can be expanded into armies in their own right.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/02/14 15:56:01


In the ultimate, victory through excess was cheaper than defeat without waste. 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






State of Jefferson

Can you help me build a 200 pt list for each?

I think for simplicity, speed and storage, Ill start at 10mm.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Regarding minis:

Old Glory has packs of Carthaginians 10mm Hvy Infantry in packs of 100 minis for $17. Looks like they would be mounted 8-12 per unit. 2-6 Hvy African Spearmen allowed in list. So even going max units (48pts) at 12 per base.... 72 Hvy Libians at 10mm....

This game is almost free....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/14 16:39:05


 
   
Made in us
Sergeant Major




Pennsylvania

Go to http://www.artdelaguerre.fr/en/aide_jeu.php . Select "Excel spreadsheet for army list" and Download the spreadsheet. This is very helpful when creating lists.
I happen to have a Carthaginian list I created last year.
Hannibal Strategist 10
Hasdrubal Competent 3
Megon Competent 3
# Description Type Cost/per Total cost
3 Elephants Elephant 13 39
5 Gallic Warriors Heavy swordsmen impact 9 45
2 Heavy Cavalry Heavy cavalry (elite) 11 22
4 Light Cavalry Light cavalry javelin 6 24
4 African Spearmen Medium spearmen armour (elite) 11 44
2 Light Infantry Light infantry sling 4 8
..............................................198 points
Initiative. ... 4

Break Point 20


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This list has a solid strike force of 3 elephants and 5 Gallic Warriors. The Cavalry is OK for the time period, especially because Roman Cavalry sucks. The Slingers job is to keep the elephants from being shot at. The African Spearmen can traverse any terrain, and are good support for the Gallic Warriors. This list is not a major ass kicker, and will require finesse in maneuvering to succeed. With Hannibal though this is easier, as he can get one additional adjustment of terrain in the beginning, and is +3 on the die roll each turn for command points.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/02/14 18:23:57


In the ultimate, victory through excess was cheaper than defeat without waste. 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






State of Jefferson

Awesome. I'll check out the excel link. And build a roman list. Schweet!
   
Made in us
Sergeant Major




Pennsylvania

I have just mounted Gauls and Germans. 12 elements each of Medium and Heavy foot. Along with 9 units of cavalry. And Darius in a command chariot

In the ultimate, victory through excess was cheaper than defeat without waste. 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






State of Jefferson

Back to the Carthage list:
-Why is there no camp listed?
-The spreadsheet has Corp1, 2, and 3 with 3 being allied.

Do you have
Elephants and Gallic Warriors with Hannibal (is he mounted or afoot or does it matter)?
Cavalries with Hasdrubal (is he mounted or afoot or does it matter)?
Spearment and Infantry in Allied with Megon (is he mounted or afoot or does it matter)?
   
Made in us
Sergeant Major




Pennsylvania

The camp in that list would be Unfortified, cost zero points.

The spreadsheet tab, at the bottom, "Standard format(200 pts)" has 3 corp, that is correct. Tabs "Reduced Format (100 pts)" and "Big format 4 Corps (300 pts)" have 1 and 4 corps respectively.

I just listed the total number of troops and generals that total 199 points, you can distribute them as you see fit. I named the Generals, but that is no obligatory.

Corps III can be Allied, with troops brought from a totally different list. In this case Numidians. However, this is not obligatory either. Being Allied is selected in the column "Type" and saves 3 points on the cost of the general, but also makes the command "Unreliable" as well.

Generals can be independent or included with a unit. If independent, he is mounted on a round stand, but does not count as a unit and has no combat worthiness. But can wander the battle field at will at a speed of 5 UD's, joining any unit in his Corps. If "included", a unit is designated as having the General, and he cannot leave the unit. The General is considered to be fighting in all melees the unit is involved with. There is a 3 point discount for Generals that are attached.

It does not matter if an independent General is represented as mounted or on foot. He still moves 5 UD.

In the ultimate, victory through excess was cheaper than defeat without waste. 
   
 
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