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Since Guard have changed so heavily they no longer fill the army niche of 'the best tanks' with weak infantry. And probably need a boost anyway, I was thinking would it be unfair to bring back the strength of the IG vehicles? How?

Revert to the 2nd edition vehicles in principle.

A russ could move and fire all the weapons at once (and each at a different targets). No bs about reduced accuracy from ordinance (only the Demolisher cannon was move or fire)

The tanks had BS4 (hit on 3+)

Moved the same speed as a Chimera.

Russes used to be immune to small arms fire and standard unit melee.. actually Demolisher had the same AV as a Land Raider.
Without giving it 14 all around, a suitable equivalent armour value would be something like
14 13 12 with HP 4

Oh, and did i mention that a Russ used to cost the same as two squads of guardsmen? That would be 100 points by todays costing!



TL;DR To fix Guard, make Russes great again!
BS4
14 13 12
HP 4
Split fire on all weapons (at least the turrent cannon)
Speed = normal vehicle.. . at least allow flat out moves FFS a Land raider is faster
Bring back the Lumbering Behemoth rule (always fire all weapons at full BS, even if ordinance is used)..
Add power of the machine spirit

The difference between a tank in cover and one out of cover for survivurability is kind of annoying, a tank should not be sitting in the back field cowering behind a wall like an artillery piece, it is supposed to be marching up the board clearing the way for the infantry.
Something like a 5+ invulnerable save might make them really fit the role of front line centerpiece again.

And maybe giving the Russ a rule for the damage table, like "Resilient" roll a D6 for each penetrating hit, on a 4+ the hit is downgraded to a glancing hit.

I think that jumps Russes to being straight over powered.

They are solid as is.

Russes are kinda weak right now, and could use some sort of buff. Not sure if this is what they need, but why isn't this posted in the proposed rules section ?

We were talking about that here and we think that as they stand they're ok. I think that the vanquisher and the eradicatior could both do with a boost but it's only minor. What I think they need, as a lot of the IG units need, is a severe points drop. I'm talking 50pts a tank or more here. Also, ideas about tanks granting cover saves to infantry and the infantry granting twin linked to the tanks was floated around.

They're weak because of all the ways to invalidate high av and the ordinance rule sucks.

Ordnance, not ordinance. One is weapons, one is laws.

But yeah, as is the Leman Russ needs a points drop and a return to Lumbering Behemoth. Being able to split fire the turret weapon at one target and hull weapons at a second target would be nice, as well. can't have all those gunners just sitting around drinking tea all day... And if I'm wishing, AV 11 for ALL rear armor, not just some.

Martel732 wrote:
They're weak because of all the ways to invalidate high av and the ordinance rule sucks.

This. Ordnance should keep the 2d6 to pen and toss the Snapshots requirement. Also, LRBT's biggest issue (like all other vehicles) is how easy it is to 1 shot them, or just glance them to pieces.

The problem is all the rules that basically read "the vehicle is deleted" regardless of armor value.

I feel like in order to level the playing field an adjustment needs to be made to close the gap between MC's and vehicles. Either make veicles MC's or give MC's a damage table. It wouldn't even be as bad if MC's were restricted to being actual creatures. Ie nids.

But if we are specifically looking at the russ then a points reduction would do a lot of good as well as maybe not split firing on sponsons but perhaps the tanks themselves in squadrons.

What about just using the old Imperial armour entries which reduced the cost of almost all IG tanks by about 30pts, this is what we do at our club and the Guard player is one of the most successful players we have.

Make it so that (on russes) if they fire their main weapon, the other weapons can still fire at full BS

Thats all that is needed

 commander dante wrote:
Make it so that (on russes) if they fire their main weapon, the other weapons can still fire at full BS

Thats all that is needed

That helps the 2 ordnance variants. But all of the leman russ variants are week, not just the LRBT and Demolisher

With all the nerfing of vehicles, and all the units that just wreck them, a price drop is probably the single biggest help possible. In addition to bringing back lumbering behemoth. Imperial heavy weapons are still gonna suck, and we can't fix that.

Martel732 wrote:
With all the nerfing of vehicles, and all the units that just wreck them, a price drop is probably the single biggest help possible. In addition to bringing back lumbering behemoth. Imperial heavy weapons are still gonna suck, and we can't fix that.

No. Price dropping only ups the amount of tanks you can bring, not the value of them. I'd rather have fewer tanks but them actually being important than just a crap ton of tanks.

 jreilly89 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
With all the nerfing of vehicles, and all the units that just wreck them, a price drop is probably the single biggest help possible. In addition to bringing back lumbering behemoth. Imperial heavy weapons are still gonna suck, and we can't fix that.

No. Price dropping only ups the amount of tanks you can bring, not the value of them. I'd rather have fewer tanks but them actually being important than just a crap ton of tanks.

Either they get made more resilient and killy, or they get cheaper. One or the other.

I vote for making kill all guns such as grav less killy, reduce their rate of fire and give them shaken instead of immob results.
There is no need to pile on more powerful buffs on every model just to keep them into the race.

So we are back to total rewrite. Grav can't be nerfed until mcs are. I guess one could lessen their effects on vehicles. Does anyone really think grav is the russes biggest problem?.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
With all the nerfing of vehicles, and all the units that just wreck them, a price drop is probably the single biggest help possible. In addition to bringing back lumbering behemoth. Imperial heavy weapons are still gonna suck, and we can't fix that.

No. Price dropping only ups the amount of tanks you can bring, not the value of them. I'd rather have fewer tanks but them actually being important than just a crap ton of tanks.

Exactly. Dropping the price reflects the new reality of 7th ed.

 Jaxler wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
With all the nerfing of vehicles, and all the units that just wreck them, a price drop is probably the single biggest help possible. In addition to bringing back lumbering behemoth. Imperial heavy weapons are still gonna suck, and we can't fix that.

No. Price dropping only ups the amount of tanks you can bring, not the value of them. I'd rather have fewer tanks but them actually being important than just a crap ton of tanks.

Either they get made more resilient and killy, or they get cheaper. One or the other.

.....yeah, that's what I said? Obviously I'm against this, because it's the same problem as Gladius, more/free stuff for the same points

GW appears to have no intention of updating legacy equipment, however. I think that points drop is the the most likely fix possible. Massive rules changes seem unlikely to come down from GW.

Martel732 wrote:
So we are back to total rewrite. Grav can't be nerfed until mcs are. I guess one could lessen their effects on vehicles. Does anyone really think grav is the russes biggest problem?.

And the problem with straight up nerfing MCs is that it's a hard, hard nerf to Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Daemons and partially toward CSM and KDK.

3/4 of those armies aren't really screaming for hard nerfs. They really aren't.

So if you want to fix the old Grav - MC/GC chestnut might I suggest instead looking at Tau and Eldar in particular?

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
So we are back to total rewrite. Grav can't be nerfed until mcs are. I guess one could lessen their effects on vehicles. Does anyone really think grav is the russes biggest problem?.

And the problem with straight up nerfing MCs is that it's a hard, hard nerf to Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Daemons and partially toward CSM and KDK.

3/4 of those armies aren't really screaming for hard nerfs. They really aren't.

So if you want to fix the old Grav - MC/GC chestnut might I suggest instead looking at Tau and Eldar in particular?

We can start with them for sure. And the damn Dreadknight. But Imperial weapons aren't getting it done against most MCs because of cover, etc anymore. No damage table is a serious problem, among others.

But then there's quasi MCs like TWC. You can fire battle cannons at them all day and get nowhere. There's so much nerfing to be done that the it's just easier to make the guard even more numerous.

One good change would be to make deathstrike missiles functional, as well as STR D, and give them a +2 to the D table for anything directly under a small blast template. Oh, you have a super tough thing? We nuke you. Moving on....

I'd give the IG a couple Str D hunter killers per 1K pts as well to represent Davy Crockett type nukes as well. I'd very much like to see the IG become an anti-death star list via liberal use of nukes. Because that's what would likely become the doctrine.

Martel732 wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
So we are back to total rewrite. Grav can't be nerfed until mcs are. I guess one could lessen their effects on vehicles. Does anyone really think grav is the russes biggest problem?.

And the problem with straight up nerfing MCs is that it's a hard, hard nerf to Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Daemons and partially toward CSM and KDK.

3/4 of those armies aren't really screaming for hard nerfs. They really aren't.

So if you want to fix the old Grav - MC/GC chestnut might I suggest instead looking at Tau and Eldar in particular?

We can start with them for sure. And the damn Dreadknight. But Imperial weapons aren't getting it done against most MCs because of cover, etc anymore. No damage table is a serious problem, among others.

But then there's quasi MCs like TWC. You can fire battle cannons at them all day and get nowhere. There's so much nerfing to be done that the it's just easier to make the guard even more numerous.

One good change would be to make deathstrike missiles functional, as well as STR D, and give them a +2 to the D table for anything directly under a small blast template. Oh, you have a super tough thing? We nuke you. Moving on....

I'd give the IG a couple Str D hunter killers per 1K pts as well to represent Davy Crockett type nukes as well. I'd very much like to see the IG become an anti-death star list via liberal use of nukes. Because that's what would likely become the doctrine.

Dreadknights aren't even spooky anymore, why do people even seem afraid of these anymore. Before you take into account grav, they already just die to most armies with all the multiwound/ap2 going around.

A battlecannon as ordinance is dumb, it's S8 AP3...

The rear AV 10/11 nonsense also needs to go.

And three HP is a travesty, Grav wrecks these things way too easy.

The point value is pretty high for a BS 3 vehicle, honestly a small adjustment, like 10 points is probably all that is needed with the other changes.

You cant just "Remove" the Rear Armour 10/11

Weak Rear Armour is iconic on the russ, and it allowed weapons of all types to be able to destroy it

This is what makes Russes fair, they have God Tier Front armour, OK Side and weak rear, so you know that you HAVE to flank the russ to destroy it

And then Grav came out....Remove the vehicle destroying capabilities of Grav, and Russes will be good again

I got to play guard with 2nd edition rules not too long ago, and I can safely say it was a very different world back then.

For those who never got to play it, tanks in 2nd edition were very, very durable. They were immune to small arms fire and the like, but even dedicated anti-tank weapons might bounce off of the hull or turret armor. Assault squads would have to target weak spots, like the treads, to hope to slow the Leman Russ down.

Which brings us to the 2nd thing - vehicles back then were very fast, moving like one would expect a motorized vehicle to move versus foot infantry. Combine this with weapons that can independently target, and you had a juggernaut that could wade into enemy lines fearlessly, crushing slower moving foes under its treads. (Complete with effective anti-infantry ramming rules)

Lastly, armies were teeny tiny back then. Your opponent might have a few lascannons, or a tank or two of their own. As a result, far fewer weapons that can hurt the tank even existed.

For all of these reasons, I don't think vehicles will ever feel like they did in the old days. Today, armies are so big, and so heavily armed, and so mobile, that nothing will make a Leman Russ tough enough. Crank it all the way up to super-heavy (something I legitimately think would be appropriate for Land Raiders) and they'll still just waiting for a cheap drop-melta unit to remove them. At this point, the kindest thing they could do is finally ease up on the how-many-weapons-can-fire thing, that has been turning battle tanks into pill boxes since 3rd edition.

 commander dante wrote:
You cant just "Remove" the Rear Armour 10/11

Weak Rear Armour is iconic on the russ, and it allowed weapons of all types to be able to destroy it

This is what makes Russes fair, they have God Tier Front armour, OK Side and weak rear, so you know that you HAVE to flank the russ to destroy it

And then Grav came out....Remove the vehicle destroying capabilities of Grav, and Russes will be good again

I disagree because their firepower is still kinda marginal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jaxler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
So we are back to total rewrite. Grav can't be nerfed until mcs are. I guess one could lessen their effects on vehicles. Does anyone really think grav is the russes biggest problem?.

And the problem with straight up nerfing MCs is that it's a hard, hard nerf to Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Daemons and partially toward CSM and KDK.

3/4 of those armies aren't really screaming for hard nerfs. They really aren't.

So if you want to fix the old Grav - MC/GC chestnut might I suggest instead looking at Tau and Eldar in particular?

We can start with them for sure. And the damn Dreadknight. But Imperial weapons aren't getting it done against most MCs because of cover, etc anymore. No damage table is a serious problem, among others.

But then there's quasi MCs like TWC. You can fire battle cannons at them all day and get nowhere. There's so much nerfing to be done that the it's just easier to make the guard even more numerous.

One good change would be to make deathstrike missiles functional, as well as STR D, and give them a +2 to the D table for anything directly under a small blast template. Oh, you have a super tough thing? We nuke you. Moving on....

I'd give the IG a couple Str D hunter killers per 1K pts as well to represent Davy Crockett type nukes as well. I'd very much like to see the IG become an anti-death star list via liberal use of nukes. Because that's what would likely become the doctrine.

Dreadknights aren't even spooky anymore, why do people even seem afraid of these anymore. Before you take into account grav, they already just die to most armies with all the multiwound/ap2 going around.

Because T6 2+/4++ W4 is still brutal to face.

Make Tank Shock a thing again.

Demolisher and Regular (the regular russ needs a name ): Remove the hindrance to other weapons firing. That rule is stupid.
Vanquisher: Give it Instant Death.
Eradicator: Give it a Rad effect, so that units hit by it are reduced in toughness. This ties into that combined arms combo theme I mentioned earlier. Oh, and consider increasing it's range to 48".
Executioner: Help it with the issue of gets hot.
Punisher and Exterminator: They're OK.

And slash the price of all the tanks.

Leman Russ Battletank

WS3 BS4 S8 T8 W6 I3 A3 Ld10 Sv3+/4++

Unit Type: Gargantuan Creature
Wargear: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter

Special Rules: It Will Not Die, Relentless

Variants and sponsons as wargear options.

+25 points to the base cost.

 Asmodai wrote:
Leman Russ Battletank

WS3 BS4 S8 T8 W6 I3 A3 Ld10 Sv3+/4++

Unit Type: Gargantuan Creature
Wargear: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter

Special Rules: It Will Not Die, Relentless

Variants and sponsons as wargear options.

+25 points to the base cost.

No, stop it Asmo. Bad! Bad!