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Gurus:
Would like your opinion on introducing players to 40k. Two 20-30 year olds. Neither has played 40k nor have played modern TTWGs. They are very interested. Do you think keeping lists simple or introducing various units of each army to showcase strengths and weaknesses. Heres what tgey can choose from:
Orks 9000pts
Marines 2500pts
Tau 4000pts
Eldar 1250pts
I was going to do 500-750 pt CAD vs CAD snd try to keep the first sesh to 3 hrs max.

First show them the price of the game before you even start. This way you are not wasting your time. Then if they are still interested, start it off slowly especially if they never played.

Davor wrote:
First show them the price of the game before you even start. This way you are not wasting your time.

Yep - this is probably one of the most important points. Make sure they understand the price of the hobby. Also make sure they understand that they can buy 2nd hand models in eBay and the like. Then - as Davor said - if they're still interested, keep going. A 500-point game is always a good, fun starting point in my opinion. Going CAD vs CAD is smart.

Yes. Thank you. Great point. My suspicion is that they are of limited means.

They got back to me. Looks like a classic match up of Space Marines vs Orks.

All WYSIWYG

Marines List:
Chapter Tactics [Salamanders]
Termie Librarian [Psyker Level 1]
5xSM Tactical (+1ML) Razorback TLHB
5xSM Tactical (+1ML) Drop Pod
Dreadnought
Land Speeder [HB]


Ork List:
MegaBoss BP/Cybork
10x Boy in Trukk
10x Boy + PK/BP Nob in Trukk
Dakkajet
5x Lootas

 doktor_g wrote:
Yes. Thank you. Great point. My suspicion is that they are of limited means.

They got back to me. Looks like a classic match up of Space Marines vs Orks.

All WYSIWYG

Marines List:
Chapter Tactics [Salamanders]
Termie Librarian [Psyker Level 1]
5xSM Tactical (+1ML) Razorback TLHB
5xSM Tactical (+1ML) Drop Pod
Dreadnought
Land Speeder [HB]


Ork List:
MegaBoss BP/Cybork
10x Boy in Trukk
10x Boy + PK/BP Nob in Trukk
Dakkajet
5x Lootas

I would recomend introduce unit types - and dont go into psykers and flyers in first game.
Drop the pod from first game too.
Id do something like this:
SM
2xtacticals (one las plas, othe heavy bolter flamer - or drop specials - just show difference with one shot and many shot weapon - this is game of chance after all)
Dread
Rhino or razorback
bikers with homers
deepstriking unit of terminators
Orks
boyz in trukk
Blob of boyz without trukk - as target for flamer or/and HB - and probably do a good job when they eat terminators that deepstrike near them.
bikers too
walker too

why not build it like the assault on black reach set? it was tipped a bit in the SM favour but they still had room to add for the orks. You don't want to introduce too much to them at once, so flyers and librarians would just mess with them.

The assault on black reach armies were:

SM:
10 tactical marines (one flamer, one missile)
5 termies
1 dreadnaught
and 1 captain

Orks:
1 warboss
5 nobz
20 boyz
3 ork deffkopters

however, it should be noted that the orks were roughly 70 points less then the space marines, but you can add a killer kan or something to even it out!

 doktor_g wrote:
Gurus:
Would like your opinion on introducing players to 40k. Two 20-30 year olds. Neither has played 40k nor have played modern TTWGs. They are very interested. Do you think keeping lists simple or introducing various units of each army to showcase strengths and weaknesses. Heres what tgey can choose from:
Orks 9000pts
Marines 2500pts
Tau 4000pts
Eldar 1250pts
I was going to do 500-750 pt CAD vs CAD snd try to keep the first sesh to 3 hrs max.

Well i mean if you want them to face each other, and youre going to moderate, I'd stick wit hthe simplest stuff first and then introduce more stuff later. The game has a lot of complication and just getting the steps down is the first thing. Learning armies and all that is important but I'd go more for learning the process of assaults and such first.

Having gone through this recently, the best way to start would be kill team.

You learn the basics of the game (moving, shooting, saving, assault, etc), without the weight of bringing a full CAD and understanding the various rules for vehicles, fliers, etc. You won't see 2+ saves. Don't bring rerollable jinks or nonsense, just make it a quick, fun game.

From there, branch into a 500 point game, with a single formation, like a basic CAD. Play with tactical objectives, but not mysterious objectives. Limit people to no flying units, and try to balance the armies. On that note, I would make every game feature objectives. it creates tactical decisions beyond just killing your opponent, which showcases the need for enhanced mobility, and how to use cover to your advantage. Don't overstack terrain on the board. Difficult terrain and other things that slow the game down should be ignored.

At that point, show them some of the various armies they haven't played, from a look and feel / lore standpoint. The "Get Started" kits are a good way to get into the game. You'll get about 500 points, and it ships with a formation. Necrons, Space Marines, have good start collecting kits.

As I have no Kill team experience and Ive played 3 editions of 40k... thats what I'll teach. I agree with not over burdening them with rules so I think:

The Relic. No fliers. No psychics. No Drop Pods. Agree with that. I was torn, but all is good advice. I want to teach transports, troops, terrain and tertiary objectives (FB, StW, LB). I like 2 identical squads in transports. Rear Fire support. And a fast choice.

The AoBR set was a trifle one sided IIRC.

Are you able to build two exactly symmetrical forces? Because from my experience, totally symmetrical play is best for early learning, because each unit in the list will perform different tasks both in offence and in defence and understanding enemy force comes as a "byproduct" of understanding your own force. And keep lists simpe - a simple HQ and a couple of different squads (shooting, melee, something from FA and non-vechicle HS for starters). Play a simple BUT NOT Kill Points game with some cover providing terrain.

Introduce vechicles and psychic phase only after new players got a firm grasps on turn sequence and basic unit types and continue to introduce rules gradually.

Unless you have to "awe" them into 40K universe by introducing different armies and their playstyles to lure them, don't really bother. When people are "hooked up" on actual gameplay, you can just tell them about different factions and show them differen aesthetics, but let them explore 40K by themselves.

And don't start with Kill Team, it is a very different beast than "proper 40K" with it's own imballance problems and perks.

If you can ever get the Battle for Macragge starter rules, that would be an excellent way of learning and getting into 40K.

 Marmatag wrote:
Having gone through this recently, the best way to start would be kill team.

You learn the basics of the game (moving, shooting, saving, assault, etc), without the weight of bringing a full CAD and understanding the various rules for vehicles, fliers, etc. You won't see 2+ saves. Don't bring rerollable jinks or nonsense, just make it a quick, fun game.

From there, branch into a 500 point game, with a single formation, like a basic CAD. Play with tactical objectives, but not mysterious objectives. Limit people to no flying units, and try to balance the armies. On that note, I would make every game feature objectives. it creates tactical decisions beyond just killing your opponent, which showcases the need for enhanced mobility, and how to use cover to your advantage. Don't overstack terrain on the board. Difficult terrain and other things that slow the game down should be ignored.

At that point, show them some of the various armies they haven't played, from a look and feel / lore standpoint. The "Get Started" kits are a good way to get into the game. You'll get about 500 points, and it ships with a formation. Necrons, Space Marines, have good start collecting kits.

Instead of Kill Team, I suggest considering Combat Patrol. It gives a much better idea of how default 40k plays, and it's been my experience that it actually plays much faster than KT because you're moving fewer units. More models, but fewer units. So instead of qualifying every action by saying, "And normally this would work slightly differently," you can play a more or less normal game of 40k quickly.

Combat Patrol is still relatively easy to buy into, it gives you a low number of units to keep track of while still using squad mechanics, and it should be large enough to give you the general feel of an army. My dark eldar tend not to feel like the skimmer-mounted raiding force they are in normal games at KT level.

I second the idea of playing Combat Patrol instead of Kill Team. Kill Team has moving individual minis as discreet units, which is not how 40K plays at all.

I've done the newbie-mentoring thing. Got a couple blog post about it. The titles are wonky because I edited example pages when I was getting started with it.

How we got started
http://notignatius.wixsite.com/craftingcavegames/single-post/2014/06/01/Demonstrations-throughout-Europe-get-more-violent

House Rules
http://notignatius.wixsite.com/craftingcavegames/single-post/2014/05/01/The-story-behind-the-indigenous-towns-of-Guatemala

This was the two new guy's group text I sent today...

The fierce and unpredictqble, Warboss of Lemuria VII, known only to the Empire as "The Brain." His 'Waaagh!' shown.

Lemuria VII is a backwater world. A small contingent of the Salamanders Chapter was sent to quell the greenskin insurrection and reclaim an ancient Relic sought by the Adeptus Astartes.

The Relic, an ancient engine of fire and petroleum. The Omnisiah and the Spirit of the Machine God has, through ancient incantations, allowed it to continue to roar and belch flame. This is the object of the Salamander's planet fall. The Brain's forces will be bent on fouling the 'umies plans.