Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Has anyone been using or looking into the rules posting about them from about a year ago? I know I want to use them going forward, but before I start hashing out lists and shopping plans, I wanted to know if what was featured before is actually accurate.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/02/blood-angels-white-scars-dark-angels-get-hh-rules.html - the post in question


Also, a grasp for straws, but is there any word on when their book will come?

Aren't those the rules from HH:6?

Let me tell you, DA with current rules are extremly strong. Heavy jetbike+javelin list using theyr ROW + acid bolts = major pain! They can easily have deathstar on bikes. Add on top of if librarian and ih he rolls shrouded, you have 2+ jink...and can basically just get out of combat out of table, and enter outflanking next turn.
Not to mention they have one of the best veterans avaiable!
I would consider them one of the rare legions that are 'viable' vs custodes.

The rumours from the Open Day seemed to imply that the book after book 7 Inferno should cover the Dark Angels and Blood Angels (and Night Lords, apparently). Your guess about the release date is as good as mine.

They're good.
Acid bolters are insane. Even just running 2 per vet squad will make your opponent hurt.
Stasis grenades are OK-but they should be the absolute last thing you buy. Never use them on missiles-combi-grenades only.
Calibanite Warblade-junk, never use-power axe instead.
Terranic Greatsword-if you're running a Praetor, you're much better off taking a Paragon Blade. On Centurions though, it's quite nice. I run one on my Delegatus, and it rarely disappoints. Keep him away from 2+ models though.
Plasma Repeater-ignore. Take a plasma gun.

Now, Mastery of the Blade. This isn't great by any stretch, but it's OK. This DOES NOT let you take on elite squads, and it does not mean you take terminators with power swords, or sarg's with Calibanite Warblades. What it does is let your Troops take on opposite Troops and win slightly better. It will not save you if you are charged. It will not let you take on Elites. If you find yourself considering a sword on anything other then Troops or an HQ with a Paragon Blade or (maybe) a Terranic Greatsword, kill that thought. Axes and Fists for Terminators or anything like that.

So, while you can take Tacticals with Combat Blades, our best Troops are Vets in Pride of the Legion. Not only can they take Acid Bolters (seriously, two in every squad), but they all have good numbers of attacks, benefit from Mastery of the Blade, and can take power swords (MAYBE 1 or 2, if you have the points). Given that they're your Troops, and likely to be going at other Troops, power swords make some sense. Any Vet Tactic Works, but Marksmen is my go to.


That's my findings. People talk about jetbikes, and I can see where they're coming from-but I don't have any to test.

Of course, take all this with a grain of salt.

To back up the above with some gameplay experience - I built my 30k DA force rather fluffy with as many of their unique wargear options as I could muster (while still remaining semi-relevant in my FLGS meta).

Swords on terminators are pretty garbage. I built mine 3/2 split swords/chainfists all with volkite (sergeant had calibanite warblade). Claws are better at 3+ save removal even with Mastery of the Blade and fists are better in all regards (I have an Alpha Legion force that runs a 7man fist squad and they rarely disappoint). Calibanite warblades on squad sergeants hasn't been too awful, given the no extra cost. I'm always paranoid about failing 2+ before I get to swing so I avoid fists/axes on my sergeants (but mostly avoid CC with them entirely unless it's going to be an overwhelming sweep).

I run a very specific vet squad keyed to make use of the Ironwing Protocol. All power swords and volkite serpentas with marksman tactic. This lets the serpentas wound on 2+ and rend, while the unholy amount of sword attacks (hitting on 3+ most times) cleans out power armor hordes three times the vets' number (I run a squad of 6 with attached HQs). Speaking of HQs - paragon blade Praetor, no questions asked. He hits other Praetors on 3's. That's cool. If I absolutely want to kill your praetor, I stasis shell him (I love these things). My Praetor has never died to another and claimed a pretty decent HQ headcount with a stasis grenade combi-weapon. Usually, however, he's my insurance against terminators. A Legion Champion with Terranic Greatsword does my HQ killing. Mathhammered out, this crazy dude knocks down Kharn before he swings 50% of the time (w/ stasis shell). I swap him around for a Chaplain to crank the vets to 11 when I'm feeling saucy (who takes a calibanite + power fist).

Haven't made use of plasma repeaters (and don't see a reason to) or acid shells (though I really want to). The latter, I like more on jetbikes (since they come stock with the heavy bolters and can fire on the move). Theoretically vets can do it too, but rending frag missiles (a-la marksmen tactic) seem to do the work with or without the acid shells (and can take stasis).

Legion rules are pretty crummy, wargear is where you earn your keep (and RoW, Ravenwing is probably better than Ironwing but god help you if you take a rapid-fire range FotL from an Ironwing tac squad). Hoping for some boosts come the next HH black book.

To counter, I put Calibanite blades on anyone that can't take a Paragon blade. It's a power weapon with a free +1 str upgrade.

Worried about AP2? That's what we have plasma and heavy bolters for.

Mastery of the Blade isn't bad. It sucks compared to the Blood Angel CC bonus, and can be useless against certain armies, like Emperor's Children, but typically, a 10 man tac squad with combat blades will be more then a match for most other 10 man tac squads in cc because of that extra hitting power.

Dark Angel's are a solid army, even without any special characters, or units. Jetbikes and Heavy Bolter squads cannot be understated for how useful they are. Also though, just be aware, after your opponents play a couple of games against you, they will understand just how disgusting those things can be as well, and target accordingly.

Ah, so the rules are in HH6? Is what I posted accurate? I have the two red books for the Legions and I should be good at putting a list together with those, it appears, but if I need the other book, I better get that ordered first.

I definitely want to build to a proto-Ravenwing theme with this list. Mounted force, probably a split between outriders and legion jetbikes, with a melee-focused squad leading the charge. On that note, should that squad with my Praetor and friends be on standard bikes or jetbikes?

 curran12 wrote:
Ah, so the rules are in HH6? Is what I posted accurate? I have the two red books for the Legions and I should be good at putting a list together with those, it appears, but if I need the other book, I better get that ordered first.

I definitely want to build to a proto-Ravenwing theme with this list. Mounted force, probably a split between outriders and legion jetbikes, with a melee-focused squad leading the charge. On that note, should that squad with my Praetor and friends be on standard bikes or jetbikes?

HH6 has your Legion rules, including Ravenwing. Angelus (HH8) will likely have special characters, Primarch, and all that.

Always go Jetbike, btw. They are amazing.

 curran12 wrote:
Ah, so the rules are in HH6? Is what I posted accurate? I have the two red books for the Legions and I should be good at putting a list together with those, it appears, but if I need the other book, I better get that ordered first.

I definitely want to build to a proto-Ravenwing theme with this list. Mounted force, probably a split between outriders and legion jetbikes, with a melee-focused squad leading the charge. On that note, should that squad with my Praetor and friends be on standard bikes or jetbikes?

Yes, book 6 is what you need. Ravenwing is one of the Rights of War in the book, it is definitely built around bikes of all types. Any infantry you take, has to be in a flying transport.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Ah, so the rules are in HH6? Is what I posted accurate? I have the two red books for the Legions and I should be good at putting a list together with those, it appears, but if I need the other book, I better get that ordered first.

I definitely want to build to a proto-Ravenwing theme with this list. Mounted force, probably a split between outriders and legion jetbikes, with a melee-focused squad leading the charge. On that note, should that squad with my Praetor and friends be on standard bikes or jetbikes?

HH6 has your Legion rules, including Ravenwing. Angelus (HH8) will likely have special characters, Primarch, and all that.

Always go Jetbike, btw. They are amazing.

Should I not even use any of the standard outrider bikes, then? Just go pure jetbike?

 curran12 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Ah, so the rules are in HH6? Is what I posted accurate? I have the two red books for the Legions and I should be good at putting a list together with those, it appears, but if I need the other book, I better get that ordered first.

I definitely want to build to a proto-Ravenwing theme with this list. Mounted force, probably a split between outriders and legion jetbikes, with a melee-focused squad leading the charge. On that note, should that squad with my Praetor and friends be on standard bikes or jetbikes?

HH6 has your Legion rules, including Ravenwing. Angelus (HH8) will likely have special characters, Primarch, and all that.

Always go Jetbike, btw. They are amazing.

Should I not even use any of the standard outrider bikes, then? Just go pure jetbike?

If you want a cheaper troop option, take them. The jet bikes built in heavy bolter, with the acid rounds, it cannot be over stated how good those are. It just can't be. Give everyone melta bombs, and you've got an answer to just about everything at that point

I'd say Outriders for CC, Jetbikes for shooting.

curran12 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Ah, so the rules are in HH6? Is what I posted accurate? I have the two red books for the Legions and I should be good at putting a list together with those, it appears, but if I need the other book, I better get that ordered first.

I definitely want to build to a proto-Ravenwing theme with this list. Mounted force, probably a split between outriders and legion jetbikes, with a melee-focused squad leading the charge. On that note, should that squad with my Praetor and friends be on standard bikes or jetbikes?

HH6 has your Legion rules, including Ravenwing. Angelus (HH8) will likely have special characters, Primarch, and all that.

Always go Jetbike, btw. They are amazing.

Should I not even use any of the standard outrider bikes, then? Just go pure jetbike?

Honestly depends on your build, style, and preference. They have a place. Outriders do have some awesome shooting potential with their TL specialty weapon options, but really by the time you get your Jetbikes in the list and maybe add some flyers and stuff, you won't have a ton of room for them. I would say priorities should be for the Jetbikes, just because DA ones are so absurdly good with those Acid rounds.

djones520 wrote:

 curran12 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Ah, so the rules are in HH6? Is what I posted accurate? I have the two red books for the Legions and I should be good at putting a list together with those, it appears, but if I need the other book, I better get that ordered first.

I definitely want to build to a proto-Ravenwing theme with this list. Mounted force, probably a split between outriders and legion jetbikes, with a melee-focused squad leading the charge. On that note, should that squad with my Praetor and friends be on standard bikes or jetbikes?

HH6 has your Legion rules, including Ravenwing. Angelus (HH8) will likely have special characters, Primarch, and all that.

Always go Jetbike, btw. They are amazing.

Should I not even use any of the standard outrider bikes, then? Just go pure jetbike?

If you want a cheaper troop option, take them. The jet bikes built in heavy bolter, with the acid rounds, it cannot be over stated how good those are. It just can't be. Give everyone melta bombs, and you've got an answer to just about everything at that point

Well... you can only use the one Meltabomb, so I would say not to bother with giving them to the squad. Hell, might be worth not going for a Sergeant either, as that adds up fast in points.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
I'd say Outriders for CC, Jetbikes for shooting.

Why? Jetbikes are 2+ vs the 3+ Outrider. If I had to toss my combat-kitted characters anywhere, it would be with Jetbikes.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Why? Jetbikes are 2+ vs the 3+ Outrider. If I had to toss my combat-kitted characters anywhere, it would be with Jetbikes.

A jetbike marine runs 35pts/per and IIRC has no substantial wargear beside the gun on the bike and a purchasable meltabomb, with special CC weapons available only on the sergeant. An outrider runs 5pts less per, they can take a special CC weapon per three (plus one for the sergeant), and already come stock with pistol/ccw. Under Proto-Ravenwing, these sergeants can also carry rad grenades. That makes for a very mean CC unit that has no fear of jinking given as its guns are TL already and their shooting is rather insubstantial to begin with. A jetbike with an acid heavy bolter doesn't want to jink, nor particularly get any closer than necessary to use its guns, and cannot beef its CC output in any way.

If you're considering jetbikes for an HQ escort, take a command squad on them. Otherwise, outriders have a far better wargear selection to compliment close combat.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Why? Jetbikes are 2+ vs the 3+ Outrider. If I had to toss my combat-kitted characters anywhere, it would be with Jetbikes.

A jetbike marine runs 35pts/per and IIRC has no substantial wargear beside the gun on the bike and a purchasable meltabomb, with special CC weapons available only on the sergeant. An outrider runs 5pts less per, they can take a special CC weapon per three (plus one for the sergeant), and already come stock with pistol/ccw. Under Proto-Ravenwing, these sergeants can also carry rad grenades. That makes for a very mean CC unit that has no fear of jinking given as its guns are TL already and their shooting is rather insubstantial to begin with. A jetbike with an acid heavy bolter doesn't want to jink, nor particularly get any closer than necessary to use its guns, and cannot beef its CC output in any way.

If you're considering jetbikes for an HQ escort, take a command squad on them. Otherwise, outriders have a far better wargear selection to compliment close combat.

Jetbikes have Pistols and CCWs and a better save. And a Command Squad is pretty pricey with Jetbikes - being 305pts starting for 5 dudes with Acid shells. I tend to view the army as mobile and shooty, putting lots of Jetbikes and flyers/skimmers on the table and generally avoiding CC if possible, because that isn't where those units shine.

The "sergeant tax" for both Jetbikes and Outriders kinda sucks, so I would just rather go for the better save and mobility with the Jetbikes. Just because you can get Power Weapons doesn't make it a particularly amazing CC unit and again, you have to pay a tax to get those Rads, which are only so useful. I will say that one big perk for the Outriders would be sticking an Apothecary in with them. That might actually make it somewhat more viable, because you boost durability and if you make the unit large enough it could be lethal in CC. It does wind up being kinda a points sink though (upwards of 400pt depending on your build).

In the end, as I said, it is a preference thing and sometimes rule-of-cool will trump anything, but if I was going Ravenwing Protocol, I would err towards heavy Jetbike inclusion to really maximize the RoW.

Even at just one melta bomb per unit, it's still pretty easy to destroy vehicles. I can't begin to list the number of times i've seen a single melta-bomb wipe out a Spartan in one shot.

 djones520 wrote:
Even at just one melta bomb per unit, it's still pretty easy to destroy vehicles. I can't begin to list the number of times i've seen a single melta-bomb wipe out a Spartan in one shot.

Now that is insane luck, because that shouldn't happen almost ever. Like... 16% chance of that happening after Pen, for which it is a Pen at least half the time or more yes... but still.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
Even at just one melta bomb per unit, it's still pretty easy to destroy vehicles. I can't begin to list the number of times i've seen a single melta-bomb wipe out a Spartan in one shot.

Now that is insane luck, because that shouldn't happen almost ever. Like... 16% chance of that happening after Pen, for which it is a Pen at least half the time or more yes... but still.

16% chance after pen? You need a 5+ to get an explode result with a Melta bomb. That's a 33%.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Jetbikes have Pistols and CCWs and a better save. And a Command Squad is pretty pricey with Jetbikes - being 305pts starting for 5 dudes with Acid shells. I tend to view the army as mobile and shooty, putting lots of Jetbikes and flyers/skimmers on the table and generally avoiding CC if possible, because that isn't where those units shine.

The "sergeant tax" for both Jetbikes and Outriders kinda sucks, so I would just rather go for the better save and mobility with the Jetbikes. Just because you can get Power Weapons doesn't make it a particularly amazing CC unit and again, you have to pay a tax to get those Rads, which are only so useful. I will say that one big perk for the Outriders would be sticking an Apothecary in with them. That might actually make it somewhat more viable, because you boost durability and if you make the unit large enough it could be lethal in CC. It does wind up being kinda a points sink though (upwards of 400pt depending on your build).

In the end, as I said, it is a preference thing and sometimes rule-of-cool will trump anything, but if I was going Ravenwing Protocol, I would err towards heavy Jetbike inclusion to really maximize the RoW.

The capacity for special CCW purchases is invaluable. It's the difference between bouncing off of armor saves or cutting right through them. If you're using the squad purely as meatshields for a CC-oriented character (or several), then by all means use the jetbikes. But if you want meaningful contribution from the squad they're embedded in? No power weapon options on the jetbikes and the sacrifices they make with their guns (IE - not being anywhere near effective in shooting if they jink, and having paid points to be able to shoot well in the first place with acid shells) kill them for me. I'd go so far as to not buy the meatshield squad acid shells as I'd count for jinking every turn. An Outrider squad's TL bolters make them resistant to jink sacrifices, have a capacity to contribute in CC, are cheaper per model (5pts per stock, 10pts per if you take acid shells on the jetbikes), and as you said can house an apothecary.

To each their own, as you said, but unless you're running a zero-upgrade meatshield jetbike squad I favor the Outriders at every turn.

 djones520 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
Even at just one melta bomb per unit, it's still pretty easy to destroy vehicles. I can't begin to list the number of times i've seen a single melta-bomb wipe out a Spartan in one shot.

Now that is insane luck, because that shouldn't happen almost ever. Like... 16% chance of that happening after Pen, for which it is a Pen at least half the time or more yes... but still.

16% chance after pen? You need a 5+ to get an explode result with a Melta bomb. That's a 33%.

See.... this is why I stick to art, because I am awful at the maths.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
Even at just one melta bomb per unit, it's still pretty easy to destroy vehicles. I can't begin to list the number of times i've seen a single melta-bomb wipe out a Spartan in one shot.

Now that is insane luck, because that shouldn't happen almost ever. Like... 16% chance of that happening after Pen, for which it is a Pen at least half the time or more yes... but still.

And odds of running into spartan without anti melta armour?

tneva82 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
Even at just one melta bomb per unit, it's still pretty easy to destroy vehicles. I can't begin to list the number of times i've seen a single melta-bomb wipe out a Spartan in one shot.

Now that is insane luck, because that shouldn't happen almost ever. Like... 16% chance of that happening after Pen, for which it is a Pen at least half the time or more yes... but still.

And odds of running into spartan without anti melta armour?

Who cares, armoured ceramite protects against the melta rule. Melta bombs have the armourbane rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for DA im a big fan of running a praetor as Luther on a normal bike with other cc outriders as if they were knights.

tneva82 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
Even at just one melta bomb per unit, it's still pretty easy to destroy vehicles. I can't begin to list the number of times i've seen a single melta-bomb wipe out a Spartan in one shot.

Now that is insane luck, because that shouldn't happen almost ever. Like... 16% chance of that happening after Pen, for which it is a Pen at least half the time or more yes... but still.

And odds of running into spartan without anti melta armour?

Right? That is what a Lightning is for!

tneva82 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
Even at just one melta bomb per unit, it's still pretty easy to destroy vehicles. I can't begin to list the number of times i've seen a single melta-bomb wipe out a Spartan in one shot.

Now that is insane luck, because that shouldn't happen almost ever. Like... 16% chance of that happening after Pen, for which it is a Pen at least half the time or more yes... but still.

And odds of running into spartan without anti melta armour?

Ceramite doesn't stop Melta Bombs... never has...