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She was the best of the Calldus assassins, she defeated Curze

as her wiki says on Lexicanum "She is known as the only mortal who successfully killed a Primarch."

using M'shen against Horus would of maybe have turned the tide in the war

Kurze let M'Shen kill him. ''Death is nothing compared to vindication.'' She would be get smushed by Horus. They sent an execution task force to kill Horus and they didn't succeed either.

You're missing the reason she killed Curze.

He let her.

Horus sent, what, four/five top tier assassins against Horus, one from each clade. They all failed. How could one assassin succeed where five of her equals/superiors failed?

M'Shen's "achievement" is only because Curze allowed her to achieve it. A guardsman could have killed Curze - because he would have let them. Should we now send guardsmen against Horus, because they would have killed Curze?

Oh look, another thread where you say something without even knowing the full story and boils everything down to a "who is the strongest" question.

ALEXisAWESOME wrote:Kurze let M'Shen kill him. ''Death is nothing compared to vindication.'' She would be get smushed by Horus. They sent an execution task force to kill Horus and they didn't succeed either.

In fairness they got distracted by Horus' super assassin. A turbo-penetrator round might be able to take off his head. On the other hand once he'd turned against the Emperor you're unlikely to find a many opportunities especially with Daemons and Psykers lounging around (plus whatever gifts the Ruinous Powers have granted Horus).

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
You're missing the reason she killed Curze.

He let her.

We've tried to convince LightKing of this before. Didn't work.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

ALEXisAWESOME wrote:Kurze let M'Shen kill him. ''Death is nothing compared to vindication.'' She would be get smushed by Horus. They sent an execution task force to kill Horus and they didn't succeed either.

In fairness they got distracted by Horus' super assassin. In theory a turbo-penetrator round could take off his head. On the other hand once he'd turned against the Emperor you're unlikely to find a many opportunities especially with Daemons and Psykers lounging around (plus whatever gifts the Ruinous Powers have granted Horus).

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
You're missing the reason she killed Curze.

He let her.

We've tried to convince LightKing of this before. Didn't work.

you sure a turbo penetrator round kills a primarch?

OP: you should listen to this if you haven't; https://youtu.be/AJ-rkZdGyNg
It's about M'shen and the night lords.

LightKing wrote:

you sure a turbo penetrator round kills a primarch?

I am not. Should have made that clearer. The punishment a Primarch can take varies from author to author but other than Lorgar using Psychic defences against a Titan I don't recall reading about them actually taking AT fire and shrugging it off.

Fulgrim get's shot in the head by a sniper rifle at one point. If I recall correctly it's implied that it may have been fatal had it not deflected round his skull due to the angle of the shot. An impressive durability feat but one that suggests AT scale weaponry could kill a Primarch (depending on armour I guess but what Primarch wears a helmet?).

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
but what Primarch wears a helmet?

Fulgrim Pre-Corruption Ironically enough.

An assassination force was sent to kill horus. It failed.

Then Dorn forbid any more attempts, as he understood the only way to crush the rebellion would be to defeat Horus in a crushing victory, that scatters his forces , without allowing another to take up leadership.

Because...plot armor.

*I am Horus! All bow before m"
BOOM (fusion bomb in the toilet)
THE END.

I believe the Imperium also sent assassins out after Abaddon and his biggies (4th ed Chaos book?) didn't appear to work.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
but what Primarch wears a helmet?

Alpharius wears one underneath the mask

Haha! Fusion bomb in the toilet!

That gave me mind pictures I didn't need.

We've had this question already a few times and OP has already posted something very similar once.
To summarize:

-M'shen did NOT fight and kill Curze, Curze let himself be killed. This has been canon for eternities and is widely available information.

-No, an Assassin is usually not enough to kill a primarch. While many liberties where taken with writing primarchs, the depiction is consistent enough to say that an assassin would not be enough.

-Assassins were sent out to kill Horus, they failed miserably.

-I very much doubt an assassin could have killed Curze in a fight, considering he handed Dorn his own posterior, fought Guillaume and Lion at the same time and gave Corax a run for his money on Istvaan.

Edit: Syntax

honestly when Gulliman comes out it'll be nice in a way that we'll have offical GW stats for a primarch they'll demonstrate how tough they are.

BrianDavion wrote:
honestly when Gulliman comes out it'll be nice in a way that we'll have offical GW stats for a primarch they'll demonstrate how tough they are.

Forgeworld Stats aren't official enough for you?

BrianDavion wrote:
honestly when Gulliman comes out it'll be nice in a way that we'll have offical GW stats for a primarch they'll demonstrate how tough they are.

Tabletop stats have always had a very loose and poorly correlated relationship with fluff capabilities. I wouldn't put much credence to an argument-by-statline, and I think most folks would agree with me.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
honestly when Gulliman comes out it'll be nice in a way that we'll have offical GW stats for a primarch they'll demonstrate how tough they are.

Forgeworld Stats aren't official enough for you?

they are for me but some people tend to oppose forge world.

Curse had no guards between her and him, he knew, and let himself die.

He did not fight. He never intended to live.

Because it wouldn't be the obvious Apocalypse now pastiche if he didn't?

 The Observer wrote:

-M'shen did NOT fight and kill Curze, Curze let himself be killed. This has been canon for eternities and is widely available information.

-No, an Assassin is usually not enough to kill a primarch. While many liberties where taken with writing primarchs, the depiction is consistent enough to say that an assassin would not be enough.

-Assassins were sent out to kill Horus, they failed miserably.

-I very much doubt an assassin could have killed Curze in a fight, considering he handed Dorn his own posterior, fought Guillaume and Lion at the same time and gave Corax a run for his money on Istvaan.

Edit: Syntax

Let's expand further.

When M'shen came across Curze the following had happened - the Night Lords had been explicitly ordered by Curze to let her past. Thus she faced zero opposition. He was sat there, unarmoured and naked. He opened his arms to her. He smiled.

M'shen was basically given a free pass all the way to Curze who basically did everything but slit his own throat for her.

She was then, centuries later hunted down and brutally tortured by the Night Lords (In the Throne of Lies audio drama). So, M'shen was not as capable as OP seems to think she is.

Especially when you also consider that OTHER Primarchs including the Lion, Vulkan and Dorn could not kill or defeat Curze.

What's the in universe source for Cruz letting himself die?

 Bobthehero wrote:
What's the in universe source for Cruz letting himself die?

I belvie there have been several sources that state it, Cruz's death has been one of the best documented aspects of the Primarchs prior to the heresy books

 Bobthehero wrote:
What's the in universe source for Cruz letting himself die?

It is common knowledge within the Night Lords legion, considering that a sizable portion of it was present when this happened on Tsagualsa. There is also a digital recording of the incident as revealed by ADB's Night Lords Trilogy (Bloodreaver I believe).

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:


Fulgrim Pre-Corruption Ironically enough.

Huh, fair enough. Do any others tend to? I could see Alpharius wearing one most of the time.

DarkStarSabre wrote:Especially when you also consider that OTHER Primarchs including the Lion, Vulkan and Dorn could not kill or defeat Curze.

That said, a Primarch can win one day and lose the next. Or the next hour. Or in a different enviornment. While I doubt any assassin would take down a Primarch in a fight I still feel like the Vindicare is the most likely. If you can't outfight them shoot them in the head while they're not looking.

 Bobthehero wrote:
What's the in universe source for Cruz letting himself die?

The vid-log built into M´Shen's vambraces recorded the event and somehow managed to reach Terra. Not to mention that it's common knowledge amongst the Night Lords themselves.

Common knowledge isn't exactly reliable, I guess the video log's good enough (unless it's been tampered with...)

 Bobthehero wrote:
Common knowledge isn't exactly reliable, I guess the video log's good enough (unless it's been tampered with...)

In universe commentary from various persons who were there

The debate in the Night Lords seemed to be why she ws allowed to do it by their Primarch - although given that he hated himself, his Legion, his world and most other things - not a great mystery.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Common knowledge isn't exactly reliable, I guess the video log's good enough (unless it's been tampered with...)

It is, however, reliable if it is presented to us as something that the protagonists of a novel have literally witnessed. In the Night Lords trilogy, Talos Valcoran was present in the very keep in which his father was killed. We also, at one point, become privy to M'shen's perspective on the matter as she flees with Curze's head in her hand. For all intents and purposes, we know how it went down as we have both digital documentation (for which we have no reason to asume that it was tampered with, as that would serve no practical purpose whatsoever. Why would the Imperium want to perpetuate the idea of Curze being dead amongst the assassins? The wider Imperium will never see the tape anyway, so it can't be intended as propaganda anyway) and we have characters that have not only been present while the deed was done, but we witness the fallout created by this act through their very eyes, so any inclination of a farce is removed.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


Especially when you also consider that OTHER Primarchs including the Lion, Vulkan and Dorn could not kill or defeat Curze.

Lion did beat him. Rather than kill took him as prisoner though