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Made in be
Mysterious Techpriest





Belgium

Hi there, for a game in a few days I wanted to apply a trick to ID my opponent's Dreadknights or Draigo. So I'm playing an AdMech army, with grav-Kataphrons and a Onage Dunecrawler, both inflicting Concussion upon a successful wound. So Concussion reduces the target Initiative to 1 until next Assault phase, so effectively a whole turn if I read that right. Part of my plan is to try to inflict Concussion to one of the problematic targets mentioned before, and then charging it with my Infiltrators, one equipped with a relic CC weapon that forces to take an Initiative test if a wound has been inflicted and not saved. If the test fails, the target is removed from play without any saves of any kind authorised, so you can understand that my tactic would have much more success if the test is taken at Initiative 1 than on the basic 4 of the Dreadknight (and I don't even know about Draigo). I believe I'm right in thinking it is authorised, but my opponent know the rules and is picky about it so if he contest I need to have something to show him to convince him I'm right.

The BRB says at the end of the Characteristic Test paragraph "During a characteristic test, a roll of 6 is always a fail, and a roll of 1 is always a success, regardless of any modifiers." Implying modifiers can be applied. Am I right to justify my trick by using that line, or is there something that contradicts it somewhere ? Knowing how GW writes its rules it's always possible

Sorry if I don't use the right words for the rules, my BRB is in French. Thanks in advance !

40K: Adeptus Mechanicus
AoS: Nighthaunts 
   
Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut




Sorry... but this doesn't work

Characteristic test are done using the profile characteristic of the character (That guy who is hit by the thunder hammer is still I 4 for the test to avoid the lazer zap)
   
Made in us
Damsel of the Lady




Wait, what? I see no reason why it wouldn't. People even built strategies to lock down Daemon Princes around using Hammers on Malleus Inquisitors and Empyrean Brain Mines because it knocks the I to 1.

His plan should work.
   
Made in be
Mysterious Techpriest





Belgium

I think it should work too, because there's a common strategy to give the Pater Radium (that forces the enemy in CC to take Toughness tests) to a unit of Vanguards because they reduce the enemy's Toughness by one point in CC. But hey I made this thread to open the debate, so if there's something that contradicts that I'd like to see where it is in the BRB.

40K: Adeptus Mechanicus
AoS: Nighthaunts 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





+1 to it working. Concussive reduced the initiative to 1, which is modifying the profile. You would need something saying test on the unmodified profile in order to not have the modifier apply.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/20 21:35:09


 
   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

It is allowed.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

It's very definitely allowed or the whole Freakshow style list of attacking Leadership via debuffs wouldn't work.
   
Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut




CHARACTERISTIC TESTS

A model will sometimes be called upon to take a characteristic test. Such a test can be
applied against any characteristic that the model has, except for Leadership and Armour
Save. A Toughness test is a characteristic test, as is a Strength test or an Initiative test, a
Wounds test and so on.

Models don’t have a choice of which characteristic to use – the characteristic to be tested
will be specified in the rule.

To make a characteristic test, use the following procedure:
• Roll a D6 and compare the result to the relevant characteristic in the model’s profile.

• If the result is equal to or less than the number in the profile, the test is passed.

• If the result is greater than the number in the model’s profile, the test has been failed,
and something unusual will occur, as detailed in the rule that prompted the test.

• When a single test is required for the whole unit, use the highest relevant
characteristic in the unit.

(BRB Characteristic test)

Bascially this states you use the characteristic on the profile of the model. So like i said, it wouldn't work

Concussive reduces their initiative to 1 but it isn't their profile, and characteristic test use your profile.

The reason the fear one or others work is because they add modifiers to the test itself

Automatic Pass and Fail

If a rule states that a characteristic test ‘automatically passes’ then no dice roll is needed;
the test is passed. Similarly, if a rule states that a characteristic test ‘automatically fails’,
then no dice roll is needed; that test fails. If the model has a characteristic of ‘-’ or 0, it
automatically fails the test.

When rolling dice to take a characteristic test, a dice roll of 6 is always a
failure, and a dice roll of 1 is always a success, regardless of any other modifiers.

What they mean by modifiers in this is if the test has a modifier to the test..... say a toughness test at -1, then you do tht modifier on the test itself.

Remember, if it ain't got a modifier on the test, you use the characteristic on the profile unmodified
   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

Concussive makes them Initiative 1 for that turn, not count as initiative 1, this means that when take the initiative test you take it against your knew temporary initiatve test. The only way to get around it is if the test states "take it on your unmodified initiative", which some tests do state.

The Freak show lists don't always have take a fear test at -1Ld, sometimes they are straight up -1Ld and it still applies. If what you say was true then most leadership modifiers would have no effect.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Characteristic Tests use the Profile and not the modified by wargear effects. The rule is quoted above.

It's very definitely allowed or the whole Freakshow style list of attacking Leadership via debuffs wouldn't work.


Leadership is not a characteristic test.
   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

Fragile wrote:
Characteristic Tests use the Profile and not the modified by wargear effects. The rule is quoted above.

It's very definitely allowed or the whole Freakshow style list of attacking Leadership via debuffs wouldn't work.


Leadership is not a characteristic test.

And no where in that rule does it say use the unmodified characteristic. If you start off with T4 and I modified it by -1 then your new toughness is T3.

Also, the only difference between a Leadership test and a characteristics test is you make a 2d6 roll against leadership.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut




the only thing I've found that uses unmodified characteristics is sweeping advance
   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

mchammadad wrote:
the only thing I've found that uses unmodified characteristics is sweeping advance

Exactly, so normal characteristic tests can use modified characteristics.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in be
Mysterious Techpriest





Belgium

Wow I didn't know that would spark such discussion Thank you all I think I'm confident enough in the way that it should work. Now to hope the dice gods support me and all will be well !

40K: Adeptus Mechanicus
AoS: Nighthaunts 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter






Dimmamar

So the thing I'm used to seeing that modifies characteristics is Toughness. Inquisition Rad grenades have a -1T effect and in both C:I and C:IA make a note: "this does affect the victims' ID threshhold." Skitarii Vanguard have a -1T effect and do not make this note.

A model's characteristics and its characteristic profile are different things, as shown by the "Models & Units" section. Characteristic tests have us look at the model's profile (2nd bullet), which is printed in a publication and absolutely cannot change mid-game (because it is printed). The fact that some rules specifically call out being able to modify the profile and some don't means that you need the permission to modify the profile. If you don't have explicit stated permission, then it doesn't work. Concussive's "reduced to Initiative 1" is not explicit stated permission that it affects the profile.

*Note: this sounds kinda crazy to me, and definitely convoluted, so someone please debunk.



Looking at this makes me think some interesting, unrelated things. Rad grenades make the UNIT have -1T, not the models, which means that the majority toughness of the unit goes down, not the T of any individual ICs attached to it? So a Chappy attached to some Guardsmen would remain at T4, while the Guardsmen would go down to T2. This would only be relevant when the T of the IC is dfft from the unit he's joined to.
Skitarii Vanguard specify models.

LVO 2017 - Best GK Player

The Grimdark Future 8500 1500 6000 2000 5000


"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21 
   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

Yes, a models characteristics and characteristics profile are two different things, for instance: you can't make a characteristics test with a characteristic profile. A characteristics profile is just the look up table where you find the characteristic, you then modify the characteristic and take a test on that characteristic.

No rule tells you to modify the profile because the profile is not a number, it is just a table.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/22 23:46:16


Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter






Dimmamar

Alright, so Concussive makes a model Ini 1. But then we go to the characteristic profile on the printed page and it says (for a NDK) I4, which is what we would use for a characteristic test.

You've given no significant challenge to my outrageous claims.

LVO 2017 - Best GK Player

The Grimdark Future 8500 1500 6000 2000 5000


"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21 
   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Alright, so Concussive makes a model Ini 1. But then we go to the characteristic profile on the printed page and it says (for a NDK) I4, which is what we would use for a characteristic test.

You've given no significant challenge to my outrageous claims.

Actually I have already explained this:
Concussion makes you I1 which according to page 8 is a modifier to your characteristic.
You are then called to take a character test, compare your dice roll with the relevent characteristic (yes it does say in the profile but since no where in the rule book does it state that there is a different characteristic for a profile and for modifiers then we are fine to use the modified characteristic).

There are some rules which call out the use of an unmodified characteristic: what you are suggesting is therefore an exception to the rule which must be specifically called out.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut




This thread has gone banana's IMHO

but this does bring up something that most people either say they already know of, or look at the rule and reach different conclusions.

Cant make heads or tails so ill just see what other people say otherwise we'll get nowhere
   
Made in be
Mysterious Techpriest





Belgium

Alright so I played my game and after discussing it with the player and the Warhammer Store manager and all of us looking in the BRB, they concluded that Concussion does not modify the value at which the test is played, for I don't remember the reasons.

Honestly there is no clear rule at all in the book that makes it simple to discuss, it's really open to interpretation and that's bad, I should send an email to Games Workshop to see if they can make something out of their own mess. Maybe I'll spark debates at their headquarters with that

But still, I think that Vanguards inflicting the -1T should make the unit go -1T on their T tests. What good are modifiers if it doesn't impact half the armies of the game ?

40K: Adeptus Mechanicus
AoS: Nighthaunts 
   
Made in nz
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran




Ankh Morpork

'Characateristic Tests' tells us:

"To make a characteristic test, use the following procedure:
• Roll a D6 and compare the result to the relevant characteristic in the model’s profile."


'Modifiers' tells us:

"Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model’s characteristics..."

'Characteristic Profiles' tells us:

"Every model in Warhammer 40,000 has a profile that lists the values of its characteristics."

Clearly what modifiers modify is the characteristics in the profile, which are used for characteristic tests.

Modifiers are applied and included when taking characteristic tests.
   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

^This guy gets it.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut




welp.... until it's FAQed so it can be clarified rather than speculated by everyone we'll just have to keep the long debate going
   
Made in nz
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran




Ankh Morpork

mchammadad wrote:
welp.... until it's FAQed so it can be clarified rather than speculated by everyone we'll just have to keep the long debate going


...what? I just gave the rules which plainly explain it. Unless you wish to ignore the rules there's simply no debate.

I appreciate your view is that this doesn't work but it's wrong to ignore the relevant rules being shown to you while simply insisting an FAQ is needed.

The correct response is to either admit that makes sense, or if you don't believe it does, to present a counter-argument.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/23 18:37:35


 
   
Made in be
Mysterious Techpriest





Belgium

I think Mr. Shine has the best arguments in favour of a Yes in my opinion.

40K: Adeptus Mechanicus
AoS: Nighthaunts 
   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

 Aaranis wrote:
I think Mr. Shine has the best arguments in favour of a Yes in my opinion.

It's the only real argument in this discussion founded on actual rules.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Well, that and the last sentence in the Characteristic Tests section, "When rolling dice to take a characteristic tesst, a dice roll of 6 is always a failure, and a dice roll of 1 is always a success, regardless of any other modifiers." That clearly indicates that modifiers are allowed for characteristic tests.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/23 19:37:31


 
   
Made in be
Mysterious Techpriest





Belgium

 doctortom wrote:
Well, that and the last sentence in the Characteristic Tests section, "When rolling dice to take a characteristic tesst, a dice roll of 6 is always a failure, and a dice roll of 1 is always a success, regardless of any other modifiers." That clearly indicates that modifiers are allowed for characteristic tests.


That was an argument of mine too but it seemed still blurry to my opponent :/

40K: Adeptus Mechanicus
AoS: Nighthaunts 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




edit


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/24 06:18:54


 
   
 
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