Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

the Merchant One preview is up.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2017/2/20/merchant-one/

In my opinion it looks like a pretty solid ship. i can see a lot of shenanigans happening with it.

Yay, more epic stuff. I'm sure the one person who plays epic will appreciate this, while the rest of us have to waste a bunch of money if we want the scyck to be playable.

I don't see how making the scyk worse makes it playable.

 Dave-c wrote:
I don't see how making the scyk worse makes it playable.

It makes it cheaper, and gives it more green maneuvers, for an actually fairly minor drawback. It only matters if that first damage card was not already a crit, or the scyk was not already one-shot (entirely possible with a bad defence roll). Then, consider that you have the potential to ignore a crit (with a shield), and it compares relatively favourably to a basic TIE fighter. In addition, I think that there are two other cards for the scyck which have not been revealed yet (there are two cards with 5 copies in the main photo, which do not match any revealed or known card). I think that these are a modification and a cannon, potentially helping other Scyks if the light isn't your cup of tea.

the only thing this provides for the 100pt fight side of things is maybe some new pilots, otherwise the scyk is kind of a waste anyway. It's just not that great of a ship. Light scyk doesn't do that much for me and I surely don't need 6 copies of them.

 Peregrine wrote:
Yay, more epic stuff. I'm sure the one person who plays epic will appreciate this, while the rest of us have to waste a bunch of money if we want the scyck to be playable.

What's your issue with Epic? is it the scale of it? i actually find it a fun game to break up the constant regular sized xwing games.

 captain bloody fists wrote:
What's your issue with Epic? is it the scale of it? i actually find it a fun game to break up the constant regular sized xwing games.

X-Wing scales very poorly to games above 100 points. Maneuvering choices cease to matter and it usually degenerates into a dice contest in the middle of the table, while the sheer number of ships to manage becomes a tedious slog. And epic ships, the supposed focus of the game, are pretty much an auto-loss unless you and your opponent agree to each bring one. So why spend an entire evening playing a single game which is less fun than playing 2-3 (or more!) complete normal games?

My problem with Epic is that its two separate games. There is Xwing and there is Epic.

If you want to play Epic, that's great. Every model produced for Xwing can be used to play Epic. Zero limitations.

If you want to only play Xwing, you are SOL. You gotta spend 2-6 times the price of one ship just to get a little piece of cardboard while you have a foot of useless plastic sitting on your shelf. Why doesn't FFG just box a Tie Advanced/Palp/Tiex1/Advanced Targeting Computer in a blister and charge $50 for it. It would be more honest, and I am guessing you would still sell at least 2 to 1 vs a raider box.

Do you know of any other mass market game system that has a centerpiece miniature that you can't play with the system's core rules? Gargossals in Warmahordes, Knights/Baneblades/Stormsurge etc. in 40K. AOS is anything goes. Only FFG and Xwing has determined that if you want to play competitively and use a handful of few pieces of cardboard, you have to first pay a $100 tax and be saddled with a hunk of plastic that you can use in only limited situations.

It's still only a 100$ tax. If you are dead set on getting the Raider only for Palpatine, you can get it on eBay for 30$ That is 70$ less than the whole box, and 20$ less than your hypothetical Tie Advanced box.

I don't get it. People fork over close to 200$ (local price) plus taxes(that's 15% here) for a single Imperial Knight, and you need quite a few other things to go with it, but then you get that one centerpiece model for a fleet and everyone rants that FFG is too capitalistic.

I've no interest whatsoever in Epic. Like others here have said X-Wing works best at 100 points. I've tried huge 400 point games and they're just not fun.

The whole selling upgrades with models thing as well does kind of grate. It's actually a rather cynical way to market a game and I think if GW tried something similar they would get allot more stick for doing so than FFG does.

Personally I just downloaded and print cards that come with expansions I don't want, but I appreciate that's not possible if you want to involved in the tournament scene.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I don't get it. People fork over close to 200$ (local price) plus taxes(that's 15% here) for a single Imperial Knight, and you need quite a few other things to go with it, but then you get that one centerpiece model for a fleet and everyone rants that FFG is too capitalistic.

Because, again, the knight is a useful model. You can play it in normal games of 40k, and if you aren't going to play it often enough you don't ever need to buy it. Epic ships, on the other hand, can't be used in normal games. That $100 model is going to sit in a box collecting dust somewhere and probably never see the table, but you have to buy it anyway because it comes with a card that you need. That "must pay the $100 tax even if you don't want the model" problem is what we're upset about, not the fact that large models cost lots of money. If epic ships only came with epic-only cards we could simply ignore epic and most of us would have no problem with the game.

I just use Startactics to plan and test my lists, than buy the individual cards I need. Or, if I know somebody that wants the epic ship, I sell it to them at a discount after I take what I want. I don't like that they package fixes for ships in the most expensive boxes, but there are ways around it.

I do like the light scyk title, it almost makes me want to start playing scum since I like how many options you have with some of their ships.

 Peregrine wrote:
Epic ships, on the other hand, can't be used in normal games.

Well no that's not entirely true. you can use them as obstacles in friendly play. i've used my raider as such and it adds a bit of a complication to the normal terrain setout.

 captain bloody fists wrote:
Well no that's not entirely true. you can use them as obstacles in friendly play. i've used my raider as such and it adds a bit of a complication to the normal terrain setout.

I don't consider "put down a rectangle of obstacles instead of the standard ones" to be using the ship in normal play. You aren't using the ship's rules/upgrades/etc to represent that ship, you're using the model as a very expensive decorative element. And you can't even do that much with your epic ships in a tournament (or tournament practice) context.

So what's wrong with buying the card solo, then?

 Peregrine wrote:


I don't consider "put down a rectangle of obstacles instead of the standard ones" to be using the ship in normal play.

Are you playing a normal game of xwing whilst using the epic ship? yes. so you're entire statement is just wrong mate....

Only if you stretch the definition of the word "using" in the context of a gaming piece to, or, more realistically, beyond, breaking point.

You are literally using it in place of a piece of cardboard.

Yeah i know we're talking about semantics at this point

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
So what's wrong with buying the card solo, then?

Because then you end up spending way too much money for a single card, as a result of it coming packaged with a ship that nobody wants to buy. Even if you aren't buying the tax ship yourself you're still paying extra money because of FFG's choice to impose the epic tax.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 captain bloody fists wrote:
Yeah i know we're talking about semantics at this point

IOW, you're wasting time on nitpicking instead of having a constructive discussion.

But then at this point we might as well want it for free and the company can ask for donations. There will never be any agreement between gamers on the exact value a single card would represent, and you know we can't just base it on the quantity of paper, ink, packaging and shipping fees.

I still see 100$ as a small price to pay for what I find to be a bland model*, a generous helping of fixes for multiple Tie Advanced, new pilots, and a god card.

And some people want to buy it. We have had Epic leagues for a few years now. The Raider is a terrific ship on the table. It is the single most efficient Epic ship that demonstrates that to fight an effective Epic battle against one of those, you need your own Epic ship, otherwise you'll be throwing eggs at a brick wall. Now, I get that you don't like the format, and that is perfectly fine. It's like an extra layer of Inception, rather than a completely different game. Some do devolve in giant furballs and bumpfests. I much, much prefer Armada myself.

*And for some reason, I find it totally okay in Armada. It lacks greebles on the Epic ship, methinks.

You must have a heck of a lot of more disposable income than the average gamer to be okay in spending a $100 to pick up a handful of cardboard.

But it's not just Palp. Autothrusters. Do all the Starvipers go in the landfill next to Atari ET cartridges? Is there any justifiable reason that a card playable in any faction is only available in a Scum ship?

How much cardboard tax is it okay for FFG to put out? I guarantee 90% of the sales of Raiders and Starvipers is not driven by the model anymore.

Shotgun wrote:

But it's not just Palp. Autothrusters. Do all the Starvipers go in the landfill next to Atari ET cartridges?

While not in a land fill that card was the sole reason I picked up the StarViper, I've never even considered using it. So it sits in a box.

You're not answering my question. Can you honestly say you'll all settle on a price that will entice FFG through profit and please *all gamers*? Or even a strong majority? I bet you a symbolic 5$ that you'll always find a good portion to say that whichever amount you come up with is "too much."

Guri sees limited air-time. Especially with Atanni Mindlink abounding. But I agree, I don't play it much either.

 Peregrine wrote:

 captain bloody fists wrote:
What's your issue with Epic? is it the scale of it? i actually find it a fun game to break up the constant regular sized xwing games.

So why spend an entire evening playing a single game which is less fun than playing 2-3 (or more!) complete normal games?

Because it's your personal perception and opinion, that 2-3 regular games are more fun than a single epic or large game. Sure it's far from being balanced and I can understand that there are people out there who hate large/epic games and FFGs money grabbing scheme by putting in cards for the regular game, but that doesn't change the fact that they seem to be popular. If you do a picture search for X-Wing tabletop, you'll see tons people showing off their epic battles or scratch built Neb-Bs. I personally don't care too much for them either, but neither me, nor you getting up on your soapbox and ranting everytime an epic ship is mentioned, is going to change that. There are always going to be people who'd rather go for a multiplayer or large Total War (FoW), Apocalypse or epic game than a regular one.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

Shotgun wrote:

But it's not just Palp. Autothrusters. Do all the Starvipers go in the landfill next to Atari ET cartridges?

While not in a land fill that card was the sole reason I picked up the StarViper, I've never even considered using it. So it sits in a box.

Mine sits on my desk, it looks nice there. But really, Autothrusters are so good, and Inertial Dampeners are fun as well.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Guri sees limited air-time. Especially with Atanni Mindlink abounding. But I agree, I don't play it much either.

That might be something to try out, just as an excuse to use the bloody thing, but at the same time, he's the same cost as base Manaroo...

BRB wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 captain bloody fists wrote:
What's your issue with Epic? is it the scale of it? i actually find it a fun game to break up the constant regular sized xwing games.

So why spend an entire evening playing a single game which is less fun than playing 2-3 (or more!) complete normal games?

Because it's your personal perception and opinion, that 2-3 regular games are more fun than a single epic or large game. Sure it's far from being balanced and I can understand that there are people out there who hate large/epic games and FFGs money grabbing scheme by putting in cards for the regular game, but that doesn't change the fact that they seem to be popular. If you do a picture search for X-Wing tabletop, you'll see tons people showing off their epic battles or scratch built Neb-Bs. I personally don't care too much for them either, but neither me, nor you getting up on your soapbox and ranting everytime an epic ship is mentioned, is going to change that. There are always going to be people who'd rather go for a multiplayer or large Total War (FoW), Apocalypse or epic game than a regular one.

But you see, if you make enough of a fuss about something to people who don't care and have no stake in a game's development, nothing will change! Which accomplishes...nothing. Oh well.

Snark aside, I see where Peregrine is coming from, I am not a huge fan of Epic personally, but I see the appeal of it, I like the models themselves for the most part, but it is annoying that in a standard game I couldn't bring Merchant one for example, I would have to go to a different format.

ok so.... you all complain about having to pay $100 or so bucks for a ship (boohoo it's nearly $160 here) to only get a few good cards, but then don't complain when you all go and buy small ships that you'll never fly for the near exact reason.

i personally like playing epic every once in a while much like 40K's apoc. it is not an everyday game, which i don't think that people understand...

and Mathieu to answer your question, no but i'm used to paying a high price for my games thanks to all famous "Australia Tax".

...Uh... they're complaining about the StarViper alright.

Canada joined you when it comes to 40K around 2014. I think it's a tax on progressive countries.

I have huge respect for anyone that plays Apocalypse. I can never get jived enough for it. It doesn't help that I was the only painted army on the board, too. I've completely given up on 40K since... I realised I was buying Deathwatch to never play them. Sigh.

 captain bloody fists wrote:
ok so.... you all complain about having to pay $100 or so bucks for a ship (boohoo it's nearly $160 here) to only get a few good cards, but then don't complain when you all go and buy small ships that you'll never fly for the near exact reason.

Yeah, it's almost like things people tolerate for £10 suddenly become an issue when it costs 10x as much. What's up with that?

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
...Uh... they're complaining about the StarViper alright.

Canada joined you when it comes to 40K around 2014. I think it's a tax on progressive countries.

I have huge respect for anyone that plays Apocalypse. I can never get jived enough for it. It doesn't help that I was the only painted army on the board, too. I've completely given up on 40K since... I realised I was buying Deathwatch to never play them. Sigh.

i think so. i can sort of understand us getting a hike because of distance from supplier (GW being in england and all) but with you guys being just over the atlantic seems like a stretch.

 Azreal13 wrote:


Yeah, it's almost like things people tolerate for £10 suddenly become an issue when it costs 10x as much. What's up with that?

not sure if being sarcastic or genuinely asking a question....

Really? You're not sure?