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There is a lot of confusion on what the Strength from Death rule and Soulburst action allows a unit to do so I wanted to analyze the rule itself and break them down in a (hopefully) simple and logical manner. I'll then state what is implicitly allowed as well as what is logically implied or not implied to be allowed.

Let's look at the first part of the rule for a moment:

"whenever a unit is completely destroyed within 7" of one or more non-vehicle units that consist only of models with this special rule, pick one of those units to make a Soulburst action. You cannot pick a unit that is locked in combat, Falling Back or that has Gone to Ground. A unit making a Souburst action can do one of the following, even if it has already done so in this turn."

This first part of the rule tells us that models with the Strength from Death special rule can perform a Soulburst action, if certain requirements are met. The requirements to perform a Soulburst action, or to benefit from the Strength from Death rule are:

(1) Units must consist entirely of models with the Strength from Death special rule.

(2) Only units that are completely destroyed trigger this special rule.

(3) Only units with the Strength from Death rule [partially] within 7" of a unit that has been completely destroyed can benefit from this rule (I say partially because of the 40k rules FAQ clarification on the word "within").

(4) Units wishing to benefit from the Strength from Death rule cannot be locked in combat, Falling Back or have gone to ground.

As mentioned above, units that meet the above criterion are then eligible to perform a "Souburst action". Also, a Soulburst action can be carried out even if the unit has already acted or performed an identical action before the Soulburst action. While not explicitly stated, I think the inverse of this should also be true-that a unit that has performed a Soulburst action (such as to shoot in the shooting phase) should not be precluded from carrying out its normal shooting attack later that phase. This is something that needs to be addressed by each TO/player group on a case by case basis but the fact that the Shooting Phase rules sequence says "nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn" and "other game rules or special rules can sometimes affect a unit’s ability to shoot – this is explained thoroughly when it occurs" may make this interpretation somewhat problematic. Overall,though, it seems awkward to be able to shoot via Soulburst after you have already shot but not to shoot after Soulburst if you have not already shot.

Anyway, now that we have the criterion for what triggers a Souburst action, as noted above, let's look at what exactly a unit can do as part of a Soulburst action.

(1) "The unit can immediately move as if it were your Movement phase."

(2) "The unit can immediately shoot (or Run or Turbo-boost) as if it were your Shooting phase."

(3) "The unit can immediately make a charge move as if it were your Charge sub-phase (if they do, enemy units can fire Overwatch as if it were your Charge sub-phase). A unit that makes a charge in the Fight sub-phase does so at the end of the current Initiative step, and once they charged, the Initiative steps continue to resolve as before (including for models in the charging unit)."

The overall function of these rules is to allow a unit to perform an additional action, outside of the usual order of how the game naturally progresses. For example, units cannot normally move, charge or shoot outside of the context or time-frame that the rules in the rulebook describe (e.g., other player's turn). Therefore, a Soulburst action essentially allows a unit to get an extra movement, shooting or assault phase.

Also, when I read these rules, I see the "as if it were your x phase" as a key component. This language explicitly gives permission to perform whatever action you are allowed to perform as a Soulburst action (e.g., move, shoot, run, turbo-boost or make a charge move) as if it were your own corresponding phase, as per the rulebook. What is not explicitly stated, but seems to be implied by the phrase "in your x phase", is that whatever limitations are imposed upon those units in their own respective phases persist for the Soulburst action. I say that this is implied because if it isn't, you get nonsensical results. For example, I would argue that if you just entered play from reserves that turn, you should not be able to charge with a Soulburst action during that turn-likewise, nor should you be able to turbo-boost in the shooting phase then use a Soulburst action to charge. The Strength from Death rule is careful to lay out what you can do in terms of actions but since it does not specify that the normal restrictions in the rulebook for those respective actions don't apply, we have to assume they do apply.

In terms of the "Movement phase" aspect of this rule, a unit should be able to do anything and everything a unit could normally do in its own movement phase. Specifically, anything and everything a unit can do in the movement phase as per the rulebook is something it should be able to do as part of a Soulburst action. This also means that any limitations imposed upon that unit in that unit's movement phase should also apply as the frame of reference "as if it were your movement phase" is operative here. Therefore, you should be able to have a unit:

-Make a normal move based on the unit type.
-Have an IC leave or Join a unit.
-*Embark or Disembark from a Building.
-*Embark or Disembark from a Vehicle, subject to the normal limitations for embarking or disembarking from a vehicle, as per the rulebook (e.g., cannot embark/disembark on a vehicle that rammed or tank shocked, nor can vehicle you embark/disembark from ram or tank shock later on that turn).
-Seize the Relic.

Absent any language that says otherwise (such as "the unit can immediately move as if it were your movement phase except...", the rule clearly and unequivocally implies the above.

*There is an FAQ that deals with units being affected by special rules while Embarked which may imply a unit cannot benefit from the Strength from Death rule while Embarked. Please check with your opponent/playgroup/TO before a game/event to see how they will rule/play this specific interaction.

*Units cannot Embark and Disembark in the same turn as per the rule that reads "models can only voluntarily embark or disembark in the Movement phase. They cannot voluntarily embark and disembark in the same turn. However, they can embark and then be forced to disembark if their Transport is destroyed."

In terms of the "Shooting phase" aspect of this rule, a unit should be able to shoot any weapons it would normally be able to in your shooting phase as well as run or turbo-boost as if it were in your shooting phase. This also means that since it is "as if it were your shooting phase" that the normal restrictions imposed upon those models are still in effect. For example, if a unit moved in your preceding movement phase (like an Artillery model without Slow and Purposeful or Relentless), it would only be able to fire as a Snap Shot.

In terms of the "Charge sub-phase" aspect of this rule, a unit should be able to make a charge move against any eligible target it would normally be able to make a charge move against in it's own Charge sub-phase. This also means that since it is "as if it were your own Charge sub-phase" that the normal restrictions imposed upon those models are still in effect. For example, if you entered play from Reserves that turn or are subject to the "some units are disallowed from charging" reasons for being disallowed from charging in the rulebook. Of course, things get complicated if you are performing a Soulburst action in the other player's turn as the "as if it were your x phase" needs to be clarified to mean "your preceding x phase" (or not).

Finally, the Strength from Death rule finishes out with the restriction that "a unit can only make a Souburst action once per turn". According to the Rulebook, this means once per player turn as unless it specifically says "game turn" it is "player turn".

overall, what we have here is a very powerful rule that can allow units, in the right circumstances, the ability to perform the same action up to three times per game turn. I think that the rule is surprisingly well written and thought-out, provided we impose all the restrictions that the rulebook normally does for any of those given actions/phases. For me, the only ambiguity lies in if the "in your x phase" language and the most conservative and straightforward way to play the rule, to me, is to play it as if the "in your x phase" aspect of the rule refers to all of the conditions and restrictions that were present in your immediately preceding corresponding phase.

 mortetvie wrote:

overall, what we have here is a very powerful rule that can allow units, in the right circumstances, the ability to perform the same action up to three times per game turn. I think that the rule is surprisingly well written and thought-out, provided we impose all the restrictions that the rulebook normally does for any of those given actions/phases. For me, the only ambiguity lies in if the "in your x phase" language and the most conservative and straightforward way to play the rule, to me, is to play it as if the "in your x phase" aspect of the rule refers to all of the conditions and restrictions that were present in your immediately preceding corresponding phase.

While I don't have on hand the ruling that refutes this (maybe someone else can help) I will find it after work, I believe it was an FAQ that states when performing an action in your opponents phase it removes the restrictions placed upon your unit for whatever reason, being whether it was firing full BS after moving with a heavy weapon in your turn or so forth.

A surprisingly decent read, especially since it brought up some situations I hadn't thought about that I might need to try., as well as some that I wouldn't try for the reasons listed.

Two points:
- I don't believe that a unit would be eligible to Disembark using a Soulburst. I'm aware this debate goes back n forth, but one interpretation states that while a unit is in a transport, it's not on the table. So wouldn't be within the 7" to trigger "Soulburst". Personally I'm fuzzy on this one since I don't think I own any transports other than a Nightscythe, which hasn't it's own rules, and a Morkanaut, which I'm not putting anything in it. Hopefully someone else can give a better response.

- The hanging issue with the charging "Soulburst" is if a unit destroys a unit in CC is it still considered locked? You can look at the relevant thread for info on this.

Another important note is the Reborn Warhost ability to choose a second unit to preform a Soulburst.

I believe this means A) the second unit must be able to Soulburst, meaning with 7" of the destroyed unit, etc and B) that the second unit is part of the same Host.
Detachment bonuses only affect units within that detachment, so it only makes sense that the 2 units gaining a Soulburst are members of the same Detachment.

-

While I think you got a nice post here, I think it misses the crucial question of whether the Charge creates a Fight. It does say "as if it were your Charge sub-phase", but the charge sub-phase does say to proceed to the Fight sub-phase when you complete it.

 Yarium wrote:
While I think you got a nice post here, I think it misses the crucial question of whether the Charge creates a Fight. It does say "as if it were your Charge sub-phase", but the charge sub-phase does say to proceed to the Fight sub-phase when you complete it.

Indeed this is very important. You can charge, but you'll need to wait until the turn's Assault phase to resolve attacks. This could mean losing a charge bonus if the turns Assault phase has passed and you charge after it. In general, I feel it is only worth taking units that have not yet participated in an assault to engage other units that likewise have not participated in an assault.
This cuts down on any initiative consusion since the resulting combat is "new" and can be resolved during that Assault phase.

Good points by everyone.

Regarding being embarked and benefiting from Strength from Death:
units are still technically in play and on the battlefield, they are just in the vehicle/building. If they were not in play/battlefield, how could they be hit by template weapons if in an open-topped transport or shoot out of fire points?

Also, the rulebook specifies that when measuring distances for units that are embarked, unless measuring for shooting attacks, you measure from the hull. Why would you ever need to measure from the hull of a vehicle/building for anything other than shooting if the unit embarked can never affect or be affected by special rules/Wargear or in game effects?

Charge but no fighting:
I never addressed the charge/fight distinction as I thought it was obvious that it allows you to make a charge move, but not actually fight a round of combat when the Soulburst action is carried out to charge. The main thing was to just get into combat and lock something down or be locked in combat to avoid being shot and not to actually fight an immediate combat. Worth noting though, for sure.

Soulburst after wiping units out of combat:
Regarding using a Soulburst action to charge a unit after you wipe one out in combat, if you are still technically locked in combat, then you cannot Soulburst. However...

The rules here are sloppy and will need a TO/s ruling or FAQ. For example, the rules say "Units that are locked in close combat must fight in the Assault phase. Units are no longer locked in combat if, at end of any phase, they no longer have any models in base contact with an enemy model." The rule specifies "end of phase" but the rest of the Assault Phase rules use the words "were locked in combat" when referring to actions such as making a sweeping advance or end of combat pile-ins.

Since you cannot actually both "be" locked in combat and "have been" locked in combat with the same unit at the same time in the same phase, I'd say that the rules only make sense that you are not "locked in combat" if you are no longer in base contact with any unit because (1) they are wiped out; or, (2) end of combat pile-ins could not bring anyone into base to base contact. The operative idea here is if you are not in base contact with a unit, you are not locked in combat.


Finally, one thing worth pointing out and asking is If you use a Soulburst action to give a Wraithknight another "move as if it were your movement phase" move, I should he be able to charge? Technically this is legal but man, 24" move for a WK and then a (potentially first turn) charge is pretty rough for a lot of armies to deal with!

Regarding units being embarked: I seem to remember either the BRB or the FAQ specifically stated that embarked units are not considered on the board for any rules other than shooting out of fire-points, which is a specific exception that has clear rules governing who can shoot and where to measure.
This is why characters with aura abilities do not work while embarked.

EDIT: I found it in the BRB FAQ:
Q: I have a question regarding unit special rules that affect all or some units within a certain range of a model or unit. How do
these interact with units inside Transports, and what happens if the unit with the rule is inside a Transport?

A: When a unit embarks on a vehicle it is taken off the battlefield and does not interact with anything on the
battlefield. However, certain rules may create exceptions to this rule, with the most obvious examples being Fire
Points, psychic powers and Transports. If a unit’s rules are meant to apply even when embarked on a Transport, they will specify this.

-

 mortetvie wrote:
Regarding being embarked and benefiting from Strength from Death:
units are still technically in play and on the battlefield, they are just in the vehicle/building. If they were not in play/battlefield, how could they be hit by template weapons if in an open-topped transport or shoot out of fire points?

Also, the rulebook specifies that when measuring distances for units that are embarked, unless measuring for shooting attacks, you measure from the hull. Why would you ever need to measure from the hull of a vehicle/building for anything other than shooting if the unit embarked can never affect or be affected by special rules/Wargear or in game effects?

As above, I'm not expert on the subject and it's not my intent to drag the debate over here, but I'm doing my homework on it for a different situation.

Final BRB FAQ wrote:Q: I have a question regarding unit special rules that affect all
or some units within a certain range of a model or unit. How do
these interact with units inside Transports, and what happens
if the unit with the rule is inside a Transport?

A: When a unit embarks on a vehicle it is taken off the
battlefield and does not interact with anything on the
battlefield. However, certain rules may create exceptions
to this rule, with the most obvious examples being Fire
Points, psychic powers and Transports. If a unit’s rules
are meant to apply even when embarked on a Transport,
they will specify this.

Does SFD have enough to apply it to a unit while embarked in a transport?

I get that FAQ entry, but if you apply it in the strictest sense, you kind of get nonsensical results. For example, do Fire Dragons lose the "Assured Destruction" rule? Does the Exarch no longer get to use his special rule to re-roll a failed armor pen/wound result? Do models cease to benefit from Feel no Pain? Why do the rules specify that models embarked gain the Fearless special rule but that special rule does not itself mention if it affects embarked models? The part of the answer that says "If a unit’s rules are meant to apply even when embarked on a Transport, they will specify this" is what troubles me as that means that unless a special rule says it works while embarked, apparently it doesn't? Anyone else see a problem here?

The aim of this question seems to be directed at area of effect abilities such as "models within x inches get such and such buff or debuff" like Shrouding from Telepathy or the Avatar of Ynnead's FNP bubble-in which case apparently GW doesn't think models embarked should be affected by these types of buffs. I say this because the question itself says "rules that affect all or some units within a certain range of a model or unit". Strength from Death is a special rule that only affects the unit that has it, and that rule has a very specific trigger but I can see how this FAQ entry would lead one to belief the Strength from Death rule does not apply while embarked. I guess as soon as you step indoors, you may not get as much "strength from death" which would be funny if it was a morgue you stepped into? Overall, I can see this point go either way and it will be up to a TO to clarify.

 mortetvie wrote:


(3) Only units with the Strength from Death rule [partially] within 7" of a unit that has been completely destroyed can benefit from this rule (I say partially because of the 40k rules FAQ clarification on the word "within").

This is not a true limitation. E.g. Word of the phoenix allows soulburst actions without being within 7" of anything. It is only a limit in the strictest sense of the SFD process not for soulbursting.

eldritchstormer wrote:

 mortetvie wrote:


(3) Only units with the Strength from Death rule [partially] within 7" of a unit that has been completely destroyed can benefit from this rule (I say partially because of the 40k rules FAQ clarification on the word "within").

This is not a true limitation. E.g. Word of the phoenix allows soulburst actions without being within 7" of anything. It is only a limit in the strictest sense of the SFD process not for soulbursting.

Not sure if you are referring to the discussion about being embarked or not embarked because Word of the Phoenix is a blessing and you cannot target units that are Embarked with blessings, nor can Embarked units cast blessings.

Otherwise, generally speaking, Strength from Death still does restrict you to making a Soulburst action if units are destroyed within 7". Word of the Phoenix is just another way to trigger a Soulburst action (as does another power if a casualty is inflicted) without meeting the requirements of the Strength from Death rule but that is only because those powers specifically say that you can do so.

Furthermore, you'll note that the limitation I listed, as I worded it, specifically says that only units with the Strength from Death rule can benefit from that (Strength from Death) rule while partially within 7" of a unit that is completely destroyed. That statement is 100% true regardless of the source of a Soulburst action =).

That brings up a very interesting point for the Reborn Host.
A unit must be within 7" for SfD to allow a Soulburst action, but since Soulburst itself isn't a rule per se, the Reborn host may actually allow the second unit from the detachment to Soulburst, regardless of range.

Thoughts?

 mortetvie wrote:
I get that FAQ entry, but if you apply it in the strictest sense, you kind of get nonsensical results. For example, do Fire Dragons lose the "Assured Destruction" rule? Does the Exarch no longer get to use his special rule to re-roll a failed armor pen/wound result? Do models cease to benefit from Feel no Pain? Why do the rules specify that models embarked gain the Fearless special rule but that special rule does not itself mention if it affects embarked models? The part of the answer that says "If a unit’s rules are meant to apply even when embarked on a Transport, they will specify this" is what troubles me as that means that unless a special rule says it works while embarked, apparently it doesn't? Anyone else see a problem here?

(NOTE: Just going to play Devil's Advocate here for a bit.)

It's possible you've over-applied the FAQ to include every rule being used by a unit while embarked on a transport. I don't think there is any issue with a unit keeping it's own rules while embarked. No rule is being broken when Fire Dragons use "Assured Destruction". The only requirement is that the shooting models have the rule, so isn't dependent on being within X" of anything currently on the battlefield. Does the model have the rule? Yes. Is it contingent on being in range, line of sight, or in a formation? No. Same goes for FNP, Tank Hunters, Force, etc, as these rules are applied to the unit regardless of where they are.

With SFD, we have a case where an embarked unit, is trying to respond to an event that happens to a unit on the board. It has a range of 7", and the simple argument has been 'How can you measure range to something that isn't on the field?'. This has come up in a few different cases, like Szeras/Triarch Stalkers working on Warriors while embarked on Ghost Arks, or Nurgle Plague Host reducing S/I/T of an enemy unit being within 7" while embarked on a Transport not taken from the Plague Host Formation, like a Land Raider. We already know that Eldar Psykers can't use powers while embarked, unless it's a Witchfire and has open-topped/Fire Points. So why are we making an exception for SFD without any instruction on how to do it.

(Devil's Advocate OFF)

I'm not saying it is one way or the other, and I haven't even made up my own mind on it yet. I'm just challenging the assumption that we instruct players that it is one way until we get an FAQ telling us to do otherwise.

 Galef wrote:
That brings up a very interesting point for the Reborn Host.
A unit must be within 7" for SfD to allow a Soulburst action, but since Soulburst itself isn't a rule per se, the Reborn host may actually allow the second unit from the detachment to Soulburst, regardless of range.

Thoughts?

I saw your other post regarding this matter and it does pose an interesting question. I plan on having 2 Reborn Warhost formations and plan to mix ICs so this is something that ultimately a TO would need to make a ruling on. I'm at work now but I'll have to look at the actual rule to see what it actually says word for word. My inclination is that the second unit selected must be from the same detachment. As far as if both units that are selected must be within 7" of something that is destroyed... I have no idea. If you don't, then that makes me want to bust out my Dark Reapers again...

 mortetvie wrote:
Also, the rulebook specifies that when measuring distances for units that are embarked, unless measuring for shooting attacks, you measure from the hull.

Can you provide a citation for this claim? I think it might be a rule from an old edition. I cannot find it in the Transport section.

mortetvie thank you for laying out the rule and how it functions so well. I feel like it makes more sense now.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 mortetvie wrote:
Also, the rulebook specifies that when measuring distances for units that are embarked, unless measuring for shooting attacks, you measure from the hull.

Can you provide a citation for this claim? I think it might be a rule from an old edition. I cannot find it in the Transport section.

It is the last sentence of the first paragraph under the "Embarking" section. Look for "Embarking and Disembarking". The rule reference in its entirety reads as follows:

"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle’s hull."

Yes, then the FAQ says area abilities don't affect embarked units unless explicitly stated otherwise. So the line no longer applies.

Thank you for the infotmation!

Major thread necormancy. Also, all of this information is now completely irrelevant because Ynnari got reworked...

Indeed, locking to prevent further necromancy.