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This is somewhat of an open-ended question, but which would you find more menacing/threatening/intimidating (fluff-wise, in terms of tabletop effectiveness, how the models look, etc.) across the tabletop: Stormravens full of GK Paladins with Draigo/Chapter Master OR Land Raiders full of Khorne Berzerkers with Kharn/Chaos Lord?

Would appreciate your feelings and thoughts on the above question--I am considering starting an army with either of the above elements as its core.

fluff? Khorne zerkers because chaos corruption means you're boned either way. Crunch wise? Neither. Storm ravens are either hovering (and thus easy to kill), will only hold 6 models in terminator armor iirc, and don't bring a whole lot of bang for the buck. LRs you just watch them immobilize themselves, and even when the zerkers jump out, they're all T4 3+ overpriced infantry.

CSM LRs get dozer blades.

Good point, still, once they pop out its max of 10 bodies (9 of the CL has termie armor) of T4 3+ of infantry that are fairly overpriced.

Yeah, they're super weak compared to Wulfen/TWC. The Emprah's own berzerkers.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, they're super weak compared to Wulfen/TWC. The Emprah's own berzerkers.

With traitor legions rules they are undoubtably worse than normal WE CSM, they cost 20 points more than a WE CSM and the only difference is they are fearless and +1 weapon skill, that 20 points for fearless on your troops choices!

Not to mention the damage output is bad. 4A each, no AP/rending/shred, unless you start making them even more expensive. Good against squishy troops, bad against anything with decent survivability/T5

Fluff and Tabletop:
Keep those Zerkers away from me.

I can deal with Stormravens more easily than the Land Raiders and the SRs don't threaten my position until at the very earliest Turn 2 whereas Land Raiders are going to be projecting a threat bubble from Turn 1.

Fluffwise - I'd prefer to be shot than butchered in melee. Also the fact it's Chaos, even if I survive the Zerkers I'll receive a bullet to the head.

I'd be more afraid of the GK's to be honest. To me, the Khorne Berserkers in a Land Raider Sound like My 15-Man Crusader Squad w/ a HQ Choice in a Land Raider Crusader - very scary on paper. but practically inefficient to the point of uselessness.

 IllumiNini wrote:
I'd be more afraid of the GK's to be honest. To me, the Khorne Berserkers in a Land Raider Sound like My 15-Man Crusader Squad w/ a HQ Choice in a Land Raider Crusader - very scary on paper. but practically inefficient to the point of uselessness.

Yeah but the GKs are tied up in reserve stuff for half the game. By the time they finished their first combat the game is over

 CrownAxe wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:
I'd be more afraid of the GK's to be honest. To me, the Khorne Berserkers in a Land Raider Sound like My 15-Man Crusader Squad w/ a HQ Choice in a Land Raider Crusader - very scary on paper. but practically inefficient to the point of uselessness.

Yeah but the GKs are tied up in reserve stuff for half the game. By the time they finished their first combat the game is over

Same sort of deal with Crusader Squads. They're tied up for at least 1 turn (more than likely two since you don't want to be disembarking such a Squad prematurely), then they're only useful against Squads of relatively equal strength (aka Tac Squads, other Crusader Squads, or weaker). You're essentially paying 500-ish Points for a Squad + its delivery system for a kit that can only deal with a relatively select few targets. I feel the Khorne Beserkers would suffer the same sort of problem - a huge amount of points dedicated to doing damage to a very select group of targets.

So, the zerkers w/ kharn in a land raider are 576 points (with only dozer blade upgrade), while the GK are 720 with no upgrades or HQ "tax". I really think this is a race to determine which would be worse. I suppose the paladins are stronger for that one turn of combat they get, but the zerkers have a chance to make it to a second round meaning they might do more. Or atleast eat fire for other better units. And both squads still have every limited target selection since neither are dedicated CC units. (pallys are slightly better because of terminator armor, but have no good way of dealing with 2+ armor, outside of a daemonhammer or draigo)

Thanks for the thoughts and perspectives guys.

Perhaps to evolve this thread a bit:

1) What other CC units/combos/"Death Stars" am I perhaps failing to consider?
2) Assuming I go with the GKs, what sort of a weapons loadout on the Paladins should I use if I'm aiming to go after the heart (ICs, MCs, etc.) of the enemy (and then get drowned in numbers thereafter).

Edit: Nvm.

Moldlinedestroyer wrote:
Thanks for the thoughts and perspectives guys.

Perhaps to evolve this thread a bit:

1) What other CC units/combos/"Death Stars" am I perhaps failing to consider?

Melee deathstars generally tend to be inefficient; there aren't many things that are worth dumping a 5-600pt melee unit into, they're hard to get into the fight, you have to donate a free phase of getting to attack them to the enemy to attack, and they tend to get beaten up pretty hard by Monstrous Creatures. They're fun, but you really do need to be careful to set them up cost-effectively.

'Zerkers don't make much of a 'deathstar'; they're just Marine-statlines. Paladins are expensive, don't really have the attacks to make it work, and get doubled out too easily for the extra wound to be worth much.

Of potential melee deathstars you aren't considering:

Wraithblades. Only one Wound and 3+ armour, but they're T6, cheaper than a lot of heavy melee units, and they've got access to massive amounts of great support tools (especially with the Reborn Warhost letting you grab a Shadowseer (for Veil of Tears) and an Archon (for a Webway Portal) without any detachment taxes).

Plain, ordinary Hammernators. With Stern out of the Grey Knights and a Priest from the Sororitas or Guard lists you've got a rerollable 2+ Invulnerable save in melee, and S10 hammers. Tougher and cheaper than Paladins, at the expense of firepower.

Custodes. Functionally cheaper, better Paladins; S/T5, more Attacks (4/model with the banner...), Eternal Warrior, access to storm shields, AP2 at Initiative. Bring Stern for Hammerhand and Sanctuary, and you can get S8/AP2 attacks at Initiative and 2+ Invulnerable saves.

Necrons. I don't know all the combos since I don't play the army, but they've got piles of characters and relics set up to get a deathstar unit into fights.

There are a bunch of possibilities in the 30k Legions list; the Terminators are cheaper and tougher, there's an Apothecary Consul, the Hetaraeon Guard are what Paladins would be if they were any good, you can mix good Invulnerable saves with multiple Wounds...

2) Assuming I go with the GKs, what sort of a weapons loadout on the Paladins should I use if I'm aiming to go after the heart (ICs, MCs, etc.) of the enemy (and then get drowned in numbers thereafter).

If you're set on Paladins you should probably stick to falchions; there are differing opinions on the usefulness of the +S from halberds, but if you're going to be building a deathstar out of them you're going to need the bonus attacks much more than anything else. Keep a hammer or two around if you need to hit a vehicle or get stuck in with a unit with 2+ armour, and bring along Incinerators to avoid getting tarpitted.

The "best" deaths tar is hands down the bark bark star. A mishmash of DA, SW, and sometimes regular SM to create a force capable of charging most of the board turn one with invisibility and a 2++ rerollable. I don't remember the exact build of it, but if you Google it its pretty easy to find.

But obviously that's not GK or Chaos if that's what you want to play

If you are looking for the most powerful units and combinations in each codex I can try and help. So if you are looking for a viable deathstar both CSM and Grey Knights are severely lacking in what makes good death-stars good, cheap and incredibly powerful units that are FAST, speed is incredibly important, and grey knights severely lack reliable speed, but they do make up for it with the Dreadknight, the best unit in their codex the dreadknight has an ungodly amount of firepower and suitability for a decent price, throw 2 or 3 in a 1000 or so point list and your opponent will have a fair bit of trouble.

CSM on the other hand have fast deathstars with their death-guard bikes with sorcerers joining them, but they are by no means cheap and will take up a huge chunk of your list. What CSM shine at with their new rules is outlasting their opponent, although their aren't as good as the demi companies with their crazy amount of free vehicles they are still reasonably durable on the table, with a few powerful units that can give ordinary SM a run for their money, such as daemon princes with wings which often can be very troublesome depending on what your up against and what your running.

If by "Scary" you mean competitive then there are much more than deathstars you need to consider, a few of the top ITC and world players wrote a few articles that bunch the most powerful lists in 3 groups, deathstar lists, outlast lists and tableing lists. Deathstar lists are what you consider a unit that you statistically can not kill on the table, see "bork-star" and "Screamerstar" no matter how many D weapons you throw into a pumped up screamerstar you literally will not be able to kill every model, it is statistically impossible. However if you manage to tarpit a deathstar with useless fearless models for 2 or 3 turns then you may be able to pull victory from them, although a unit can not be killed it dosn't mean you cant win.

Outlast lists are lists where more often than not your doubling your points with free sh*t, like an ungodly amount of free sh*t. Sometimes it can just be your bringing 6 full units of re-spawning zombies that tarpit everything in sight while you maintain control of the board. It has to be cheap and it has to take time to kill, that way you can win in a battle of attrition, while maintaining your hold on important objectives.

Lastly but certainly not least, (by no means the least infuriating ) are the tabling lists, these lists are your riptide wings, your 30+ scatter bike spam and your Skyhammer Annihilation Forces, these lists have so much dakka that they are likely to blow you off the table turn 1 or 2, and are rather self explanatory.

That's just the basic rundown on what all the articles and professional players are saying in regards to competitive mechanics, I've read a lot and they are really insightful so if your interested in all that stuff they are pretty easy to find online, hope that helped in explaining what is "scary" in the current iteration of 40k.