Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Context: Last Tuesday, I played a game using Sisters of Battle and Inquisition. It was a fairly stock Sisters list, with Coteaz and Greyfax in the new Cadia detachment, so Coteaz could give them all ObjecSec.
I didn't know my opponents list (Or even what army he was using) before writing, so I made it TAC, with a few Exorcists, a couple units of Melta Dominions, ten Retributors with maxed out heavy bolters, and of course flamers on all my sisters squads along with a command squad armed with Condemner Boltguns for anti-psyker power.

As it turned out, he was bringing 3 Imperial Knights and two 10-man squads of Legion of the Damned.

So, I got turn one, he failed to seize after Coteaz forced a reroll, and I immediately scouted forward. Thanks to some mediocre rolls on my part, it took all of my Dominions and exorcists to take down one Imperial Knight despite having melta range with 7 of the Dominions and both multi-meltas on their Immolators. At this point, my opponent commented that he hadn't realized that my Dominions had scout, and that if he had known he wouldn't have deployed his knights so far forward. (He had them up the full 12".)

All in all, I wiped the board while taking fairly reasonable casualties. He killed Celestine with some lucky stomps (Out of 4 stomps all game, I think he got three 6s,) - Funny note, this led to a weird situation where Celestine was dead, but one of her Geminae was still alive and had to flee from combat, but that's not important - but since the Knight that I killed was his gun platform (The kind with a melta cannon and gatling gun, I can't remember the name,) his closest one was pure choppy, and his other one was choppy/shooty with the double battle cannon thing. He didn't have the firepower to really hurt me turn one, and by the time his Legion of the Damned came down, he was down by two Knights and had only inflicted minimal casualties - It was too late for them to turn the tide.


Now, looking at our lists, I think I would have won anyways - I had lots of MSU, which is a bad matchup for him - But that's not really relevant here. I am fairly sure I mentioned I had a couple units with scout, but his not knowing that it was my melta squads did end up costing him dearly on turn one. If I had been more explicitly clear when deploying, it might not have happened, and the game would have been a lot closer.

On the other hand, I did give a basic rundown of all my rules, and I don't think it's fair to expect every single special rule to be explained in detail before the game begins unless your opponent specifically asks.

So what do you guys think?

I think the onus is on your opponent to say "hey, I'm not familiar with/need a refresher on this [unit, army, item]" and for you to respond with as much detail as reasonable.

I give a run down of each of my units at the start of the game unless I know they are familiar with the army. When you ask ''Are you familiar with XXX'' most people, even those in the know, will ask for a quick refresher.

I'd talk through anything fancy the unit has, anything that changes the dynamic of the unit. I *would* give a heads up about which units can infiltrate and scout, enter from deepstrike or otherwise deploy in a non-conventional way.

This is specifically important for niche armies like Sisters, Inquisition, Dark Eldar and Harlequins. We aren't seen often, not everyone knows what we do. One Sister in power armour looks very similar to another to the uninitiated, so I think it's common courtesy to explain things a little more in depth than an Eldar might. For example I always take a moment to explain what the Solitaire can do, because that dude be tripping with special rules from head to toe.

If you win due to their lack of knowledge of your army, I wouldn't feel like that's a win. I wouldn't feel like I've used any skill, merely capitalised on their mistake. Games played with both players fully aware of each others capabilities are far more fun imho.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Context: Last Tuesday, I played a game using Sisters of Battle and Inquisition.

These are both rare armies with some extreme and unusual rules that no player who hasn't read into them or hasn't faced them before will ever suspect. Its a good idea to ask if your opponent knows them and make sure that he actually knows them before the game starts. Winning the game because he didn't know some silly rule isn't fun for either side.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
I think the onus is on your opponent to say "hey, I'm not familiar with/need a refresher on this [unit, army, item]" and for you to respond with as much detail as reasonable.

Inq and sisterss are one of those armies where opponents overderestimate their knowledge. They look to be just an other incarnation of an IoM army. How strange can it be right. We have all faced servo skull inquisitors before its probably just IG with slightly different rules and SM weapons, anybody knows those rules why ask...

Then his mediocre close combat unit charges a blob of death cult assassins , he gets the good old outflanking melta sistes surprise or this happens

Waaaghpower wrote:
At this point, my opponent commented that he hadn't realized that my Dominions had scout, and that if he had known he wouldn't have deployed his knights so far forward. (He had them up the full 12".)

No one ever expects them to have scout... This is one of those straightforward looking units that will give anyone a nasty surprise.

The other usual suspect is you guess it is the

Waaaghpower wrote:
exorcist

How can anyone ever expect that church organ to secretly be that good at popping vehicles. Would you have guessed their amount of shots or their Ap by just looking at what appears to be an other decorated rhino ?

Waaaghpower wrote:

I am fairly sure I mentioned I had a couple units with scout, but his not knowing that it was my melta squads did end up costing him dearly on turn one. If I had been more explicitly clear when deploying, it might not have happened, and the game would have been a lot closer.
On the other hand, I did give a basic rundown of all my rules,

This might have made it even worse. If somebody goes into the effort of taking me trough a basic rundown of his army I would at least expect him or her to mention all the crazy stuff that will likely affect the outcome of the game. And when you mention some stuff to have scout I expect "some stuff" to be non important things that score objectives or have some homing beacon of some sorts. I would not expect "some stuff" to be a game changing unit.

It's entirely on your opponent. While having the exact rules for each unit memorized is not realistic, a good player will at least look over codex summaries. 1D4chan at a minimum will give a decent run down. Ignorance is not bliss.

That said not telling your opponent what does what is different then misleading them or using ambiguous language to direct questions.

 oldzoggy wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Context: Last Tuesday, I played a game using Sisters of Battle and Inquisition.

These are both rare armies with some extreme and unusual rules that no player who hasn't read into them or hasn't faced them before will ever suspect. Its a good idea to ask if your opponent knows them and make sure that he actually knows them before the game starts. Winning the game because he didn't know some silly rule isn't fun for either side.

I've played against him with this army before. Just the last week, actually. I didn't bring out my Dominions that time, but Coteaz and Greyfax were both present (The only two Inquisitors I brought to this game,) I know he's faced Celestine before, and much of my other Sisters options were present. I didn't have Dominions in this case, though.

Waaaghpower wrote:
At this point, my opponent commented that he hadn't realized that my Dominions had scout, and that if he had known he wouldn't have deployed his knights so far forward. (He had them up the full 12".)

No one ever expects them to have scout... This is one of those straightforward looking units that will give anyone a nasty surprise.

The other usual suspect is you guess it is the

Waaaghpower wrote:
exorcist

How can anyone ever expect that church organ to secretly be that good at popping vehicles. Would you have guessed their amount of shots or their Ap by just looking at what appears to be an other decorated rhino ?

"How can anyone ever expect that church organ to secretly be that good at popping vehicles. Would you have guessed their amount of shots or their Ap by just looking at what appears to be an other decorated rhino ?"

Lol...I guess you've never seen a Vindicator? Or how about a Thunderfire cannon, who all expected that tiny little gun to be able to remove 20+ GEQ with a shooting attack?

This is the thing with these "social onus" concepts. I've had people get mad at me for the amount of damage my Harlequins can do when I've gone over their initiative, number of attacks, and exactly what their weapon does well beforehand, because "well when you said they cause an AP2 wound on a 6 to hit I didn't think they'd kill my Wraithknight!?!" it's like...well..sorry. Could he have pointed out that the dominion squads had scout? Yeah, probably. Is he "TFG" because he doesn't play the same Space Marine army everyone else does with the same units everyone's already seen and knows what they do? No.

Losses are gonna happen, especially when you bring a swingy list like an IK army that's either going to win hard or lose hard. There's not going to be a ton of gameplay decisions getting in the way of that army, win or lose.

In a tournament scenario if there is something unusual tah a unit can do I would say (such as being able to charge from deep strike). For something common like scout I would have expected your opponent to ask if things can scout to make sure I at least stay out of range of a few things.

You should at least give them a breakdown on something he may have never seen. That said, if you explain a rule, and he forgets two turns later, that's on him.

If my opponent asks me what a weapon/unit/rule does, I should tell him. It's only fair.

If my opponent doesn't ask about X, or forgets it, then that's on them.

If I've never seen a unit before, I am well within my rights to ask what it does, it's rules, stats, wargear. But if I don't ask, I shouldn't expect my opponent to tell me.

Broadly speaking: no. You are not responsible for your opponent's ignorance. If he doesn't know what he's dealing with, he should ask you. He doesn't need to know what he doesn't know, he just needs to know that he doesn't know, and ask questions.

Tell him what your units are, what they're equipped with, etc. Everything beyond that is courtesy.

If he doesn't know what rules differentiate Dominions, he should ask what differentiates them. If you warned him off-hand that there was scouting in your army (a courtesy) that was another opportunity for him to ask who had scout.

That said, volunteering information you suspect he may not know is a good, sportsmanlike thing to do. But it's above and beyond your responsibility as a player. It also comes off as really condescending if the guy you're schooling does know.

I run a daemon incursion with Fateweaver.

I tell him my army wide slaanesh rule. the bonuses I get for each formation and the detachment buff.

I would also tell him fateweaver staff rule and how his heads work for casting.

My army list has all the equipment they are bought and in a tournament environment I have extra copies of the lists so that I can write the items I got from my rewards and let my opponent keep so he knows what unit got what buffs. including spells.

Scout is one of those special rules where you should mention what unit has them, especially if the opponent isn't familiar with the army.

You weren't being TFG, as I believe you thought he would know it. In the future, just point and say "these units have scout" IMHO.

For my Black Templars, I make a point to mention that my whole army has Adamantium Will if my opponent has psychers. When I play my Imperial Fists in Horus Heresy, I remind my opponent that my Heavy Support Squads all have tank hunter and my Templar Brethren sergeant has 2 wounds.

the_scotsman wrote:"How can anyone ever expect that church organ to secretly be that good at popping vehicles. Would you have guessed their amount of shots or their Ap by just looking at what appears to be an other decorated rhino ?"

Lol...I guess you've never seen a Vindicator? Or how about a Thunderfire cannon, who all expected that tiny little gun to be able to remove 20+ GEQ with a shooting attack?

Except the vindicator has a huge gun on it and most everyone has heard of one, so they'd expect it to be a threat. An exorcist looks like either A) some weird rhino with a big pipe organ on it, or B) a rhino with a pair of missile racks on it. Neither of those screams "I am a decdicated anti-armor platform", and one of them looks like a whirlwind, which are not famed for their IK killing prowess.

I tell my opponents every special rule of each of my units before every game, and we play at least once a month.
It's a game, you play, with your opponent, not against him.
He should be aware of your army capabilities before the game starts.

 Battlegrinder wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:"How can anyone ever expect that church organ to secretly be that good at popping vehicles. Would you have guessed their amount of shots or their Ap by just looking at what appears to be an other decorated rhino ?"

Lol...I guess you've never seen a Vindicator? Or how about a Thunderfire cannon, who all expected that tiny little gun to be able to remove 20+ GEQ with a shooting attack?

Except the vindicator has a huge gun on it and most everyone has heard of one, so they'd expect it to be a threat. An exorcist looks like either A) some weird rhino with a big pipe organ on it, or B) a rhino with a pair of missile racks on it. Neither of those screams "I am a decdicated anti-armor platform", and one of them looks like a whirlwind, which are not famed for their IK killing prowess.

This. The Exorcist looks just like a Rhino, not something youd expect to be rocking around with D6 S8 AP1 shots.

I don't play hyper competitive. I usually pause before deployment and offer to give a rundown of the units i'm using, and request one of my opponent.

I go unit by unit and explain what they are, and what they've got; for instance, "This is a squad of Veteran Vanguards, they have heroic intervention which means they reroll charge. Also, they're equipped with jump packs, and power weapons, in this case, WYSIWYG, but my sergeant does have a power fist and a lightning claw." (I can expand further on what any piece of equipment does on request, but most people know what a power fist is at this point).

By being up front with what I have, I don't get into "Oh, if only I had known that..." which does somewhat cheapen things when you do pull off a nice win. Now if i share this information and he forgets - that's on him. Also, being a relatively new player, it's helpful for me to get a rundown of my opponents army in a similar fashion. Because there are numerous armies i've never even played against, I can't honestly tell you what special rules any of the Sisters of Battle have, so you'd catch me with my pants down.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 godardc wrote:
I tell my opponents every special rule of each of my units before every game, and we play at least once a month.
It's a game, you play, with your opponent, not against him.
He should be aware of your army capabilities before the game starts.

This is exactly how I view it.

I don't play really competitive as well. As such, I understand, and live by, most of what has been said already. However, I can add a bit of opinion left and right.

That said (opinion), I want to do my best and try to help people learn the game. If you are new, I explain a rule, and explain it again, and repeat that if necessary. It is nice to have a little pre-game with your opponent to go over your armies and have a short chat with your fellow player about any special rules involved. I don't know every codex and supplement by heart either, as I assume most of you will not. However, there are players who appear to be too lazy to play the game, in a way. They paint their miniatures, they show up for a game, but then they continuously ask what "And They Shall Know No Fear" does. Or "Relentless". While playing vanilla Space Marines including a squad of Terminators. And they're holding the big bad grey book labeled "The Rules". As if they are disinterested to know what even their own army does. People who pay more attention to their phone, than listening to you while you explain what your Battle Sisters squads can do. And then, during the game, they have the audacity to become offended by a 'rules surprise' of which you are certain you explained it to them. Such people should be shot. With a Warhammer. 40K times. Slowly.



Just exaggerating a little, of course. And joking a bit. But such players are real. They are out there.

No one expects the Spanish inquisition.

Had to be said

Is it common to bring datasheets or codices for others to peruse?

There is a spectrum between being TFG and being balls-to-the-wall Explanatory of every single special rule, stat line, and equipment choice for every unit you own.

Generally, someone unfamiliar with an opponent's model should ask, and when asked, that opponent should explain everything relevant.

IF a model is not easily distinguishable as something extraordinary or unfamiliar (As I understand things, some Sisters models are like that - I'd also imagine that Tau Breacher squads would be similar, and I bet there are IG and SM models that fit that niche), it should be a common courtesy to point those models out as different, so that your opponent has the chance to ask you about the relevant differences.

IF there are rules specific to your army (things like Chapter Tactics, or Farsight Enclaves' PE vs Orks, or the bonuses for Traitor legions, or Ynarri stuff, or Formation bonuses) that are relevant to the opponent's capabilities, it really is upon you to explain what those bonuses are and who they apply to. The expectation that an opponent should be generally aware of most army's capacities should not reasonably be extended to awareness of each subfaction's special rules and the benefits of every formation under the sun - that's absurd.

Overall, follow the Golden Rule[s]: Do unto others as you would have done unto you. Also, don't be a dick.