Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
CYPRESS, Texas (AP) — Mack Beggs had just won a state wrestling title Saturday in a category he didn't want to be in.
But instead of wallowing in a debate about what should or should not have happened this weekend at the Texas state girls wrestling tournament, the 17-year-old transgender boy simply decided to be a good teammate.
"I wouldn't be here today if it weren't for my teammates," he said. "That's honestly what the spotlight should have been on is my teammates. The hard work that I put in in the practice room with them, beside me — we trained hard every, single day. Every, single day and that's where the spotlight should have been on. Not me. All of these guys. Because I would not be here without them."
Beggs completed an undefeated season by winning a controversial title in an event clouded by criticism from those who believe the testosterone he's taking as he transitions from female to male created an unfair advantage.
His family has said he would rather be wrestling boys, but state policy calls for students to wrestle against the gender listed on their birth certificates. So the junior from Euless Trinity beat Chelsea Sanchez 12-2 in the 110-pound weight class to improve to 56-0 and earn the championship.
Beggs was surrounded by the girls he'd worked so hard with all season when he finally broke his silence Saturday night after the team finish second in Class 6A, the largest division in Texas.
After thanking all of them, he lifted the gold medal hanging on his neck to the assembled cameras and shared a parting thought after all that he'd been through this weekend.
"Hard work ethic pays off," he said. "Just saying."
Earlier Saturday, Beggs fell to his knees for a moment after his win in the final as a mixture of cheers and boos rained down on him. He then hugged his coach and left the mat.
He had a bit of fun with his fellow wrestlers at the medal ceremony when he counted down from three and all six of the top finishers posed by doing a dab on the medal stand.
Beggs, who reached the state tournament after two opponents forfeited, was dogged throughout the event by questions about whether his testosterone treatments made him too strong to wrestle fairly against girls.
The University Interscholastic League, which oversees athletics in Texas public schools, enacted the birth certificate policy Aug. 1. And while Beggs' family has said he wanted to compete against boys, UIL deputy director Jamey Harrison, who refused to address Beggs directly, said they had not received a request to change divisions from any athlete at this competition.
Harrison believes that the outcome of the tournament was fair, despite concerns about Beggs.
"Nothing that has happened at this year's wrestling championships has the UIL reconsidering its rules because quite frankly we don't believe that any issues being reported on are really a product of UIL rules," he said.
Beggs pinned Kailyn Clay earlier Saturday to reach the final. That was after he beat Taylor Latham and Mya Engert handily on Friday to reach the semifinals.
In the semifinals, the match was halted for a couple of minutes because Beggs had a bloody nose. Trainers finally managed to stop the bleeding and the fight resumed. Not long after, Beggs slammed Clay on the mat and pinned her.
He and Clay shared a long hug before an official raised Beggs' arm to signal victory, and the wrestler scurried off the mat. Clay's coached shouted to reporters that she "did not have permission" to talk to them after her loss and both of her parents declined comment.
Beggs' participation comes at a crucial moment, with the public and politicians debating the growing belief that gender is fluid. Just this week, the Trump administration announced an end to federal protections that allowed transgender students to use facilities based on their gender identity, leaving states and school districts to determine their own policies.
And in Texas, lawmakers are considering a bill similar to HB2, the North Carolina law that prompted the NBA to move this year's All-Star Game out of that state. If passed, the Texas version, called SB6, would require transgender people to use the bathroom of their "biological sex."
Attorney Jim Baudhuin tried and failed to get injunctions before both the district and regional meets to prevent Beggs from competing while he transitions because he is taking testosterone. Baudhuin, who is the parent of a wrestler at another school who has never faced Beggs, told The Associated Press earlier this week he doesn't blame Beggs for the situation, but faults the UIL.
"The more I learn about this, the more I realize that she's just trying to live her life and her family is, too," Baudhuin said. "She's being forced into that position. Who knows, through discovery we may find out that's not the case. But every indication is, the way the winds are going now, the blame rests with the UIL and the superintendents."
Despite criticism of the policy, UIL executives don't envision a change.
"Ninety-five percent of the school superintendents in Texas voted for the rule as it was proposed, which was to use birth certificates," Harrison said. "So any rule can be reconsidered, but ... given the overwhelming support for that rule, I don't expect it to change anytime soon."
It seems few are happy about this, including the person in question, but it does seem to raise some prickly issues. Honestly it seems more of a drug issue, to some extent, as the issue seems to be around the testosterone shots taken. I don't know much about state wrestling but I wonder if a female that wasn't transitioning was taking shots like that would be considered in the same context as well. Either way tricky issues are our thing so enjoy.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2017/02/27 01:08:35
Subject: Re:Male wins female state wrestling title
This is what happens when you refuse to acknowledge a transgender person's stated gender identity. He identifies as male, has male hormone levels, and requested to compete against men. Ditch the obsession with birth certificates and the problem ceases to exist.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
This is a biological woman, who identifies as a male, and has been taking hormonal therapy, that won a wrestling competition, competing as a female (as I'm guessing the state required).
When I first read a story about this earlier today, I thought it was a boy ID'ing as a girl, winning. So just wanted to make sure others weren't confused as well.
Correct. Contrary to standard practice in higher-level sports organizations (professional leagues, the olympics, etc) the state requires athletes to compete based on the gender on their birth certificate. This story demonstrates why this is a terrible idea.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
This is a biological woman, who identifies as a male, and has been taking hormonal therapy, that won a wrestling competition, competing as a female (as I'm guessing the state required).
When I first read a story about this earlier today, I thought it was a boy ID'ing as a girl, winning. So just wanted to make sure others weren't confused as well.
I think it's done intentionally to show the ignorant gender policing in fact had the exact opposite effect that people were intending.
It's like when they pushed the bathroom thing, where you had to use the bathroom on your birth certificate. Of course if you've never met someone who transitiioned it sounds like the mosts ensible thing in the world, but in reality...
Feel sorry for the kid. A massive win doing what he loved, and now people will always cast doubt on if he actually won it. and, at any point they can decide to put an asterik next to his record.
Poor guy. I wonder if he would have been happier losing in the league he actually wanted to be in.
Correct. Contrary to standard practice in higher-level sports organizations (professional leagues, the olympics, etc) the state requires athletes to compete based on the gender on their birth certificate. This story demonstrates why this is a terrible idea.
Wouldn't the kid be banned from higher level sports due to testosterone treatment regardless of which gender they tried to compete under?
But I'm curious how it'd work if you let kids compete with the gender they identify with. I'm not well versed on the subject but surely a biological female transitioning to male is always going to have a huge advantage over other females (due to testosterone replacement therapy) but a huge disadvantage over other males, and on the flip side a male transitioning to female would likely have a huge disadvantage competing against other males (because of estrogen replacement therapy) but would still be at an advantage over other female competitors (because they aren't going to have fully reverse the effects of puberty).
That is an argument that has been going on for ALONG time.
Especially when they are older and the argument is made that bone structure is already there.
I dont know the science behind transtioning. But I know the Psychology behind it, and for many the urge is STRONG
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Wouldn't the kid be banned from higher level sports due to testosterone treatment regardless of which gender they tried to compete under?
Nope. The general rule is that testosterone is legal when prescribed by a doctor for a legitimate health reason and your levels don't exceed normal male ranges. So transgender men can compete, as can (for example) cisgender men who have had testicular cancer and need artificial testosterone to replace what their own body can no longer produce. And it makes sense for it to be this way, all the treatment does is exactly duplicate what your body normally produces. The levels are the same, and the effects on the body are the same.
and on the flip side a male transitioning to female would likely have a huge disadvantage competing against other males (because of estrogen replacement therapy) but would still be at an advantage over other female competitors (because they aren't going to have fully reverse the effects of puberty).
The general rule is that transgender women can compete after 1-2 years of hormones bringing their levels within normal female ranges. At that point the advantages in strength and ease of muscle development are completely gone, and the permanent things like bone structure are far from clear advantages. That's how it works in the olympics, among other things, and we don't see tons of transgender women winning easy medals. And that's a situation where even very slight advantages can be decisive since margins of victory are so small. Hardly anyone, whatever their gender identity or medical history may be, is going to be competing at that level.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
What happens when the athlete wants to take a shower?
This is nonwinner either way.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
It all depends on testing the levels and seeing if they are in a fair bracket.
It's difficult. But the thing is now that win is kinda always gonna be a astarisk on the record or a footnote. There's always gonna be a what if...
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
My suggestion is that biological males be required to compete as males, regardless of subsequent surgery. Females receiving male hormone therapy would also be required to compete with males.
Otherwise it invites abuse from a competition standpoint.
They also need to place tighter restrictions on hormones and PEDs generally. Currently, IIRC there is no standardized screening at this level.
Whats weird is this is Texas. I thought wrestling was a girly sport that Yankees did, and that all red blooded Texans played football*
*or was in the band, or played the manliest of sports...beer pong.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
jmurph wrote: My suggestion is that biological males be required to compete as males, regardless of subsequent surgery. Females receiving male hormone therapy would also be required to compete with males.
Otherwise it invites abuse from a competition standpoint.
They also need to place tighter restrictions on hormones and PEDs generally. Currently, IIRC there is no standardized screening at this level.
But... why? Just let people compete as the gender they identify as, instead of creating inane double standards.
Peregrine - If you like the army buy it, and don't worry about what one random person on the internet thinks.
2017/02/27 15:36:00
Subject: Re:Male wins female state wrestling title
Fun Fact for the day, Gender Dysphoria is a disease and parents are making it significantly worse by allowing their kids to believe this is normal.
"Moreover, barring pre-pubertal affirmation and hormone intervention for GD, 80 percent to 95 percent of children with GD will accept the reality of their biological sex by late adolescence." (ACoP)
So maybe this kid is one of the 5-20% of kids who don't grow out of gender dysphoria, who knows, but its a fair bet that his/her parents jumped on board because they are open minded people (Sarcasm) instead of getting their child help.
Now, on the off chance that this child is in fact a part of that small population of Gender Dysphoric people who don't transition back to normal, it makes no sense for him to be competing against Girls while taking HUGE doses of steroids. Texas goofed here clearly.
Frazzled wrote: Whats weird is this is Texas. I thought wrestling was a girly sport that Yankees did, and that all red blooded Texans played football*
*or was in the band, or played the manliest of sports...beer pong.
Well... Wrasslin' is a winter sport, and I thought Texans hated ice and whatnot, so y'all had to do something inside to stay warm. So... they figured it was a good idea to put on some clothes as tight as football pants, and cuddle a bit with each other.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Peregrine wrote: This is what happens when you refuse to acknowledge a transgender person's stated gender identity. He identifies as male, has male hormone levels, and requested to compete against men. Ditch the obsession with birth certificates and the problem ceases to exist.
Birth certificates seem to be currently entrenched as the go to determiner that absolves other governing bodies like schools from having to exercise judgment and make a ruling on a case by case basis. This issue isn't going to come up very often and when it does the administrators have a rule to hide behind to avoid taking responsibility for the gakky situation they create.
From the OP article:
"Ninety-five percent of the school superintendents in Texas voted for the rule as it was proposed, which was to use birth certificates," Harrison said. "So any rule can be reconsidered, but ... given the overwhelming support for that rule, I don't expect it to change anytime soon."
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
2017/02/27 19:37:02
Subject: Re:Male wins female state wrestling title
Peregrine wrote: This is what happens when you refuse to acknowledge a transgender person's stated gender identity. He identifies as male, has male hormone levels, and requested to compete against men. Ditch the obsession with birth certificates and the problem ceases to exist.
Birth certificates seem to be currently entrenched as the go to determiner that absolves other governing bodies like schools from having to exercise judgment and make a ruling on a case by case basis. This issue isn't going to come up very often and when it does the administrators have a rule to hide behind to avoid taking responsibility for the gakky situation they create.
From the OP article:
"Ninety-five percent of the school superintendents in Texas voted for the rule as it was proposed, which was to use birth certificates," Harrison said. "So any rule can be reconsidered, but ... given the overwhelming support for that rule, I don't expect it to change anytime soon."
Except of course if its a male changing to female in which case he obliterates the competition. There's no good solution here. Fortunately in the real world its almost a nonissue.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
jmurph wrote: My suggestion is that biological males be required to compete as males, regardless of subsequent surgery. Females receiving male hormone therapy would also be required to compete with males.
Otherwise it invites abuse from a competition standpoint.
It doesn't invite abuse at all. As I said, the standard in higher-level athletic organizations (the olympics, professional leagues, etc) is that transgender women compete with women after 1-2 years of having standard female hormone levels. This is because after that length of time any advantages from their time with male hormone levels has been reversed. If this standard is sufficient at the highest levels of competition, where even the smallest of advantages is decisive because the margins of victory are so tiny, it's sufficient for lower-level competitions which are little more than a fun diversion to occupy a student's free time.
And really, the idea that anyone would abuse these rules is just laughably wrong. Have you ever looked into just what gender dysphoria is like? It sucks, immensely. And a cisgender person switching genders to gain an advantage in sports is going to feel all of those things as their body starts changing in the wrong direction, their brain struggles to run on the wrong hormone mix, the face bullying from the people around them, etc. Even if it somehow worked (it won't), can you honestly say that many people are going to find that an acceptable price to pay?
Frazzled wrote: Except of course if its a male changing to female in which case she obliterates the competition.
In the real world this does not happen.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
The "80-90% stop" claim is based on considering all claims of a different gender identity, no matter how frivolous. If a 5 year old says "I'm a princess" for a week and then moves on to the next thing it's counted as a reversal. But when you look at older children with a consistent identity over years of time the rate of backing out is much, much lower. The guy in the OP was 17 years old, well past the point where "silly childhood impulses" is a plausible explanation, and is unlikely to change their identity.
You're going to have to try harder. The first article involves a transgender woman making the team, not "obliterating the competition" as you claimed. The second involves cisgender men playing on a team with women because the budget can only afford one team, and therefore has nothing to do with this subject.
Perhaps, if you want to make a convincing argument, you could start with a list of olympic medals won by transgender women? After all, they're allowed to compete against cisgender women (after sufficient time at female hormone levels), so surely if the advantages you believe exist really do exist they should be winning a disproportionate amount of medals.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/27 20:18:12
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
The "80-90% stop" claim is based on considering all claims of a different gender identity, no matter how frivolous. If a 5 year old says "I'm a princess" for a week and then moves on to the next thing it's counted as a reversal. But when you look at older children with a consistent identity over years of time the rate of backing out is much, much lower. The guy in the OP was 17 years old, well past the point where "silly childhood impulses" is a plausible explanation, and is unlikely to change their identity.
You're going to have to try harder. The first article involves a transgender woman making the team, not "obliterating the competition" as you claimed. The second involves cisgender men playing on a team with women because the budget can only afford one team, and therefore has nothing to do with this subject.
Perhaps, if you want to make a convincing argument, you could start with a list of olympic medals won by transgender women? After all, they're allowed to compete against cisgender women (after sufficient time at female hormone levels), so surely if the advantages you believe exist really do exist they should be winning a disproportionate amount of medals.
Actually I don't I cited two examples, the first two on Google. Thats two more than the article, yet we are agreed the whole issue is rare, and frankly not one anyone should give a about except people pushing an agenda.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Frazzled wrote: Actually I don't I cited two examples, the first two on Google. Thats two more than the article, yet we are agreed the whole issue is rare, and frankly not one anyone should give a about except people pushing an agenda.
You cited nothing. You claimed that a transgender woman would, in your own words, "obliterate the competition". You cited examples that do not involve any such obliteration. It's incredibly dishonest to pretend that you have provided any evidence to support your claims when the factual content of your articles is about as relevant as linking the top two google search results for "cute cat gifs".
And it's so nice of you to dismiss the problem as one nobody should care about. Too bad for the real people involved, I guess they don't matter?
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
5000pts 
6000pts 
3000pts
about except people pushing an agenda.