Reworked PP forum live - Faction forums removed

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**RiTides**

Announcement is here:

http://privateerpress.com/community/privateer-insider/insider-2-27-2017

Not long ago, Chief Creative Officer and WARMACHINE and HORDES creator Matthew D. Wilson announced our plans to unite Privateer Press’ game development team and our passionate player community under the banner of Community Integrated Development. Since then, we have been working furiously behind the scenes preparing to roll out this exciting new era of WARMACHINE and HORDES.

Well, with an electrifying SmogCon (soon to be Lock & Load Europe) behind us and with Grymkin: The Wicked Harvest revealed as the new HORDES faction, it’s my distinct pleasure to announce that our very first CID cycle will kick off next Monday, March 6, 2017.

On that day, at 10 a.m. PST, Community Integrated Development will go live! You will have the opportunity to get a look at Grymkin models in detail and, if you feel so inclined, to help us put the new Faction through its paces in its final leg of development. Through CID, you can help shape the final models that will hit the tabletop starting at Lock & Load 2017 in July.

This Friday, our fearless Development Manager Oz Schoonover will be posting an Insider that will cover the nuts and bolts of the CID process as well as several key best practices for providing the most effective and useful feedback. In addition, this Insider will link to our Community Integrated Development How-To PDF, which our intrepid Playtest Coordinator Jack Coleman has labored to put together and polish in recent weeks. This detailed guide to the entire CID process will also be stickied for your convenience on our new CID forum.

Oh, did I say new CID forum? Why yes, yes I did.

As part of the launch of CID, we are rolling out a dedicated CID forum, separate and independent from our main forums. The CID forum will be the place to access and discuss the latest CID test rules and to provide feedback, both through discussion threads and via our new CID reporting tool. The Privateer development team will be interacting regularly on this forum, answering questions and partaking in discussion on the latest CID materials.

While the CID forum is not live yet, registration for it will be open on Friday when Oz's Insider goes live. The Insider on Friday will have a link to the new forums so that you will be ready to go on day one the following week.

In conjunction with the launch of the CID forum we are also undertaking some exciting and long-overdue streamlining of our current forums. However, one important thing to note is that, in order to allow us to finalize these changes for the launch, all Privateer forums will be offline from March 1 through March 5. The revamped forums will go live again alongside the new CID forum on March 6.

While this Insider provides you with the broad strokes of what to expect in the lead-up to CID next Monday, be sure to stay tuned for more specific information coming later this week.

It will be interesting to see what this looks like! I hope we don't lose faction forums, which was the best part of PP's setup for me - loved the Minions forum! What do you think?

**Davor**

So the old forums are not going to be replaced? This is in addition to the older forums?

**RiTides**

I think we're all in the dark about that, Davor, see this post from Haight in the other thread:

Haight wrote:
Also, fwiw, though i'm a mod over there, i have just as much idea as what's going on or what sunday / monday / whenever brings as you guys.

**Red_Five**

http://privateerpress.com/community/privateer-insider/insider-3-3-2017

So it sounds like PP is definitely curating the new CID forum and will actively remove disrespectful people. I can get behind that for the CID forum. Helpful is better than disrespectful and angry.

**Deadnight**

Davor wrote:
So the old forums are not going to be replaced? This is in addition to the older forums?

they're not going anywhere. Don't get your knickers in a twist.

It's just being reorganised. Old forums were a mess.

To the op, there was a massive ratio of noise to signal on the old boards. Mired in tons of salt. I'm all for this. CID will be solid if the people partaking can bear to bring a positive attitude and don't get bogged down in partisanship and emotion.

**Red_Five**

Deadnight wrote:
Davor wrote:
So the old forums are not going to be replaced? This is in addition to the older forums?

they're not going anywhere. Don't get your knickers in a twist.

It's just being reorganised. Old forums were a mess.

To the op, there was a massive ratio of noise to signal on the old boards. Mired in tons of salt. I'm all for this. CID will be solid if the people partaking can bear to bring a positive attitude and don't get bogged down in partisanship and emotion.

They will remove you from the CID Forum if you are not respectful or objective. They have a zero tolerance policy.

**RiTides**

Hmmmm... honestly not sure what I think about a "zero tolerance" policy for something as subjective as that...

If faction forums survive I'll be very happy, though

**Davor**

Deadnight wrote:
Davor wrote:
So the old forums are not going to be replaced? This is in addition to the older forums?

they're not going anywhere. Don't get your knickers in a twist.

It's just being reorganised. Old forums were a mess.

To the op, there was a massive ratio of noise to signal on the old boards. Mired in tons of salt. I'm all for this. CID will be solid if the people partaking can bear to bring a positive attitude and don't get bogged down in partisanship and emotion.

What did I say that you think my knickers are in a twist? I just asked a simple question. Curious since I use to get my knickers in a twist lots of times, I thought I am a lot more calmer now.

**ScarletRose**

They will remove you from the CID Forum if you are not respectful or objective. They have a zero tolerance policy.

Sounds like a good way to not deal with anyone who might be critical of PP's bad decisions.

I was on the old forum, seems like I'll pass on this one.

**Vertrucio**

I've brought back my old forum at: http://www.tabletopgaming.org/

Some Khador players have tentatively migrated over.

I know PP has a lot of issues so we'll see how it goes. To be honest, CID pretty much means as much that they don't have the willpower or cash to do their own jobs, as it might mean they're willing to change in response to serious problems with the game.

**Leo_the_Rat**

ScarletRose wrote:
Sounds like a good way to not deal with anyone who might be critical of PP's bad decisions..

Did you even read the ToS? The whole idea behind the CID forum is to give feedback, good and/or bad, to PP so that they can release a more balanced model or group of models. They want to stop people from insulting each other and be respectful to each others ideas and viewpoints.

I'm sure they'll miss your obviously open mindedness.

**ScarletRose**

Did you even read the ToS? The whole idea behind the CID forum is to give feedback, good and/or bad, to PP so that they can release a more balanced model or group of models. They want to stop people from insulting each other and be respectful to each others ideas and viewpoints.

I'm sure they'll miss your obviously open mindedness.

PP has had issues listening to any sort of criticism of, or even questions about, their decisions. When they rolled out their anti-online retailer policy they'd lock any thread even asking for clarification. And that's just one example, there's also the whole history of all the calls to fix various models that have gone unheeded, etc.

But I'm sure none of that will effect the new PP fan-friend only forums.

I'm sure there's going to be some witty rejoinder after this but I'm not going to play the get the last word in game. Whatever floats your boat.

**Deadnight**

ScarletRose wrote:

PP has had issues listening to any sort of criticism of, or even questions about, their decisions. When they rolled out their anti-online retailer policy they'd lock any thread even asking for clarification. And that's just one example, there's also the whole history of all the calls to fix various models that have gone unheeded, etc.

But I'm sure none of that will effect the new PP fan-friend only forums.

I've been on the pp forums since mk1 scarlet. I do appreciate where you are coming from, but i disagree. And I don't begrudge the guys at pp their jobs. It really is quite thankless. think the community at large can come across with a very smug and conceited sense of entitlement in that it seems folks want the guys at pp to be at their constant beck and call. And that's neither fair nor realistic.

There is a lot of things where they can't answer, often for very tedious legal reasons.

Regarding the calls to fix various models, they're really in a position where they can't win. Stay silent, and fans go crazy that pp aren't listening to them (even though they're aware of the issues in all likelihood), answer and fans go through them (the fix is too far, nor far enough, the wrong fix, not needed. Why aren't they needing/buffing my faction instead-and probably all at once too) , examine every word under a microscope and hold thst against them for ever more. Or else maybe they quietly get on with it and fix things at the next errata, and there's still loads of people that complain. And that's even assuming the grievances are legitimate. Sometimes it can be. And sometimes, it's just some entitled jerk lashing out because his favourite crutch just got answered by the meta, and now he has to adjust or git good. And quite often, the attitude towards pp is nothing short of juvenile. hostile, antagonistic and nasty. Back at the mk2 beta, they got death threats from people. You don't need that, not for a bloody day job!

And This creates a very toxic atmosphere very quickly, which isn't very welcoming to new people, or to those who just want a friendly community.
Pp do listen to criticism and do adjust, within the confines of what's possible. What they didn't do, and what they don't want to do is listen to and respond to all of the white noise that the fanbase is capable of. This is not helpful. And I can't blame them.

**Charistoph**

ScarletRose wrote:
PP has had issues listening to any sort of criticism of, or even questions about, their decisions. When they rolled out their anti-online retailer policy they'd lock any thread even asking for clarification. And that's just one example, there's also the whole history of all the calls to fix various models that have gone unheeded, etc.

But I'm sure none of that will effect the new PP fan-friend only forums.

I'm sure there's going to be some witty rejoinder after this but I'm not going to play the get the last word in game. Whatever floats your boat.

Then the Skorne forums would have been completely shut down within two months of Mk3's launch.

Sorry you feel like you or a friend got burned at one point or another on their forums, but there is a way to be respectful and disagree with someone, but I don't see people being that disrespectful of PP on their forums. I saw the GW forums shut down for a significant portion of the population not being respectful, so I know what that looks like. I have seen posts shut down there because people were being disrespectful to other people or consistently making crude comments after warnings (such as Morghul3's release post on the Skorne forum). I have seen posts shut down here and at BoLS for the same reason, and for less leniency on Bolter and Chainsword.

**RiTides**

The vibe in the Minions forum was great, as I mentioned earlier - no need to paint all posters with the same brush!

**MrFlutterPie**

RiTides wrote:
The vibe in the Minions forum was great, as I mentioned earlier - no need to paint all posters with the same brush!

I lurked in the Merc forum quite heavily and I found it to be good as well.

I wonder if the so called less competitive armies had less problems because of the fact they were not top tier and everyone knew it

.

**Jerram**

They've been very wiling to listen to criticism about models in the game, so much so that it's become whine to win. "Oh, oh nerf this model next please PP" has become a large part of the discussion on the boards. However cracking down on discussion is not the way to fix that type of "toxicity" instead they should look at their own behavior that causes such reactions. Where they have been unwilling to handle criticism is anything outside of game rules, including polite request for clarification on this very topic, how many threads were locked that just wanted to know if the faction forums were being deleted with the response "you've been told all you're going to be told." That is what creates toxicity, callous treatment of your customers/fans. Since someone else brought it up from a root cause perspective GW's forums were shut down because they were acting like bleep towards their fans/customers, interesting someone defending PP would use that as a comparison.

**wuestenfux**

The recent FAQs showed that PP has serious problems with mk3. So issues have not been fixed, or they might not fix them at all.
I have no confidence in PP atm.

**Vermis**

PP may have started out with a reputation as the anti-GW, but from a few steps back the line gets very blurry. I'd propose that WMH's popularity wasn't based on doing things wildly differently to GW, but from PP doing the same thing as GW, with a couple of balance and tactical tweaks.

I don't know if it gives me sorrow or schadenfreude to see them toddle further down the path.

**Pink Horror**

Based on the terms of service, I'm pretty sure the original page 5 from the Warmachine rulebook could get someone banned from the new Privateer Press forums. The times sure have changed.

**RiTides**

Any word when these are coming back online today? It's already afternoon here...

Edit: Just tried a few minutes after posting this and it seems to be up! Huge new rules text that showed up first, then I got to the index.........

No faction forums

**wuestenfux**

RiTides wrote:
Any word when these are coming back online today? It's already afternoon here...

Seem to be up again.

**RiTides**

Yeah, seems to have just happened? I was actually in the middle of editing the above post.

But no faction forums

**wuestenfux**

Looks different.
One forum for army lists and one for game tactics. No longer faction wise.

**RiTides**

New PP forum guidelines are posted..........

Yikes:

Forums Behavioral Guidelines

Online communities are notoriously toxic and nasty to deal with. This is partially because humans are naturally more motivated to complain about things they don’t like than they are to praise the things that they enjoy. It is further compounded by what is known as the online disinhibition effect ( the abandonment of social restrictions and inhibitions found in normal face-to-face communication when using remote electronic communications). The anonymity provided by the Internet makes it very easy to dehumanize and disrespect people who are not in the room with you. It is easy to forget that the “they”—often used in a condescending manner—is actually referring to real people, most of whom are sharing an office while we read your feedback. For the protection and the overall health of the community, there is a zero tolerance policy regarding toxic behavior on the forums. You may be entitled to an opinion but you do not have the right to verbally abuse other people. On these forums you are required to be respectful and constructive. Acceptable behavior on the Privateer Press forums is strictly moderated and anyone who breaks the Terms of Service can be banned without warning.

Civil Discourse
The nature of discussing a complex game like WARMACHINE and HORDES means there will be disagreements. The first step for engaging in a healthy discussion is to acknowledge that your own opinions can be proven wrong. Only by working together and exposing ourselves to a large variety of perspectives can we truly come to the best conclusions. How you say something is just as important as what you say. Taking an aggressive tone with others will immediately put them on the defensive and makes them less receptive to your feedback. So think before you post—take a few moments to reread what you have written and be sure that you are treating everyone in a positive and civil manner.

Constructive Criticism
NOUN: criticism or advice that is useful and intended to help or improve something, often with an offer of possible solutions.

Whether you’re at work, dealing with personal relationships, practicing for an upcoming tournament, or posting on the forums, giving and receiving constructive criticism is essential for improvement. When giving criticism, it is important to remember that you are trying to help someone. Condescending or offensive language will undermine your efforts by putting the other person in a defensive position. If you legitimately want to help someone, your words should carry that message. If you find yourself merely venting or trying to boost your own ego, stop immediately and consider whether or not you actually have anything helpful to say. Constructive criticism must be detailed. You need to explain the reasoning behind your opinions if you want someone to understand your critiques. It is often easy to be snarky and vague, and people often try to disguise their passive-aggressive insults as intelligent commentary. Unfortunately, these kinds of comments are never useful. No one will learn anything from your criticism if you don’t explain why you think that way.

Don’t Vent
There is a common misconception that “blowing off steam” by freely expressing negative feelings to other people will reduce one’s anger through catharsis. This concept is very old, and modern research has found plenty of evidence to the contrary. Venting can feel good for the individual in the short term, but those feelings are fleeting and are usually replaced with guilt and anxiety after the fact. While you might feel some temporary relief, expressing negative emotions toward other people will actually make the subject of your venting feel worse. It is also likely to lower the other person’s inhibitions against expressing anger, which can provoke retaliation. Venting is a lose-lose endeavor. Nobody benefits from the verbal abuse and negative feelings being expressed. This does not mean you can never express your feelings. Holding in all your emotions is certainly not a healthy or viable solution. Instead, you simply need to express yourself without hostility, blame, or entitlement.

Pretty negative view of forums for the opening line of rules... for a forum

Looks like the penalties are: first offense, mod approval required for subsequent posts. Second offense, 3 week ban minimum. Third offense, permanent ban.

Not really rolling out the welcome mat are they lol...

**vipoid**

wuestenfux wrote:
Looks different.
One forum for army lists and one for game tactics. No longer faction wise.

The lack of any sort of faction-specific discussion is depressing. I guess those were too useful and convenient to make the cut.

Also, I'm noticing an absence of anything resembling a 'general discussion' area.

**RiTides**

Yeah, apparently there isn't one. My local PG (also a forum mod, apparently) is pretty bummed, too...

**vipoid**

RiTides wrote:
Yeah, apparently there isn't one. My local PG (also a forum mod, apparently) is pretty bummed, too...

Just saw that someone asked about it on the forum, this was PP's response:

"Hey, thanks for posting here. There is no longer a general discussion forum or faction-specific forums on the official forums. We encourage you to visit the myriad unofficial, player-run sites and pages that exist online outside of our official forums."

The thread was then closed so that no one could comment on this. I think that sums it up really.

**welshhoppo**

Yeah, these new forums are awful.

Like God awful.

Like seriously seriously ungood.

Like they just completely ripped the heart out of the community awful.

Like, you can't even discuss the bloody game on the bloody forum awful.

I need a cup of tea.

**vipoid**

welshhoppo wrote:
Yeah, these new forums are awful.

Like God awful.

Like seriously seriously ungood.

Like they just completely ripped the heart out of the community awful.

Like, you can't even discuss the bloody game on the bloody forum awful.

I'm surprised they even bothered keeping them. I mean, why even have a forum for a product if your response to people wanting to discuss said product is 'bugger off and find a different forum'?