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One of the arguments against going back to 1 per 3 special weapons on WIndriders is that the plastic kit includes the weapon options for all 3 bikes to have any of the weapons
But since Black Guardian Windriders are now an Elite choice for Eldar that has the same weapon options, I thought we could finally go back to Troop Windriders having only 1 per 3 special weapon.

Elite BG Windriders can still take any weapon choice, but Troops are limited, essentially making the plastic kit a dual-build kit.
While we are at it, lets make a change to Vypers, turning them into Eldar attack bikes

Keep the points cost and weapon options, but make them T4 jetbikes w/ 2 wounds and obviously drop any vehicle upgrades they can take.
Now we can take a Vyper squad as a Fast attack, or 1 in a Troop Windrider unit
This idea of a unit with 3+ Windriders and a Vyper is pretty cool and if only the Vyper and 1 per 3 Windriders can take special weapons, then the unit is less points efficient than now.
Hopefully this would make them more balanced since you would have to spend more points on the unit an get less weapons.

Thoughts?

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There are a few problems with this model-wise; the Vyper is way too big to be a T4/2W jetbike, especially given that we've already seen what a 2W two-man Eldar Jetbike looks like (the Harlequin Skyweaver), and a large part (from a visual logic perspective) of why the Attack Bike exists for the Space Marines is that you can't put a heavy weapon on a Bike, whereas we know the Eldar can put whatever weapons they feel like in the underslung pod on their jetbikes (see: Corsairs with Dark Lances on the jetbike).

I wholeheartedly support 1-gun-per-3 in Troops Windrider units, and I agree that the Vyper needs a fix, but making it a jetbike that attaches to Windrider units is not the way to go. I'd rather see them become more flexible in their current role/do things the rest of the Eldar motor pool doesn't rather than become an overlarge and generally unnecessary model in the Windrider unit; they could get the 30k Malcador's rule to let them move and turbo-boost in the same turn (to seek side arc on enemy vehicles), they could get optional Skyfire on the turret, but whatever happens they should remain a vehicle and they shouldn't come attached to Windrider units.

I can see that, but given that the Vyper kit is showing it's age (the model once built looks great, but the sprue is a bit rough) GW could very easily get a re-sculpt kit that is 2 Vypers per box, similar to the Skyweavers kit. Keep the overall aesthetic, but make them a bit more sleek. Afterall, Skyweavers are about a long a Vypers, they just aren't as wide.

Maybe T5 would be good too. It would only really help the FA version, since majority T4 would come into play for any Vypers taken in WIndrider units
The main reason I think Vypers should have the option to be taken in Windrider units is the fluff. Vypers always seem described as A) jetbikes and B) supporting Windriders.
Most of the art/pictures of Vypers are surrounded by Windriders. They often work in concert and are way more connected than Ravenwing bikes are to their Speeders/attack bikes

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So make a separate "Shrieker Jetbike" or "Windweaver" or something rather than deleting the Vyper and replacing it with this new unit you've just thought of.

(An actual update to the Vyper could include making it a dual-kit with a Craftworld Venom.)

Make scatterlasers 20 pts like an assault cannon and the whole thing is good. Windriders are a problem because of miscosting of the scatterlaser.

Martel732 wrote:
Make scatterlasers 20 pts like an assault cannon and the whole thing is good. Windriders are a problem because of miscosting of the scatterlaser.

This, or make the Scatter laser only str5. I would be ok with either change, but I would rather take cheaper (but still effective) units than more powerful ones. Plus, making the Scatter laser only Str5 also has the added bonus of making Shuricannons and Starcannons appear stronger and encourages a range of other options. I feel like even with 20pt Scats, player would still choose those over Shuricannons, and platforms that can take Starcannons still would prefer Scats. Str 5 is a more balancing solution IMO.

So let's say we make Scatter Lasers str5 and keep them 10pts.
Black Guardians bikes can still take the whole unit with Scats or Shuricannons.
Windriders can only take 1 per 3 bikes.

Vypers (and BG Vypers) are now T5, 2 wound jetbikes that can either be taken as Fast Attack (Elite for BGs) units of 1-6 bikes
Or 1 Vyper can be added to a Troop Windrider unit.

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That's fine. Str 5 is a huge nerf.

Martel732 wrote:
That's fine. Str 5 is a huge nerf.

It is, but not as much as making them 20ppm. At that point, I'd rather just take Shuricannons.
While str5 makes it much less reliable as an anti-light vehicle weapon, the range and extra shot would still make it a tough choice for the Shuricannon. A choice that would really come down to what role you want them to do.
Stay back and plink shots at infantry? Or get just a wee bit closer and be a threat to tougher targets?
If the reduction is strength is too much, we could always just add another shot. Str5 Heavy 5? ...nah

Adding in a single Vyper to the unit and the choices multiply. Imagine 3 WIndrider with 1 Shuricannon and 1 Vyper with Starcannon & Shiricannon
Or 3 Windriders with a Brightlance Vyper. Not very points efficient, but the idea is cool and it would still cost less that 10 Guardians with 1 Bright lance.

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I say give them a 4+, and Scatterlasers 15 points. No need to completely massacre the unit entry.

That's also an option and "feels" more like they should be but keep in mind how that would affect Farseers and Warlocks. Farseers would still be worth it, but Warlock Skyrunners are already on the fence about being worth taking.

Are you saying 15pt Scats, but every model can take them?
That could work, especially if they are now easier to kill.

 Galef wrote:
...Are you saying 15pt Scats, but every model can take them?...

...Do we really need to start this argument again?

At present scatterbikes are overpowered because you're paying 27pts for a heavy weapon. If you make the scatter laser 15pts you're now paying 32pts/weapon. If you leave the scatter laser at 10pts and restrict them to 1/3 of the unit you're paying 61pts for each weapon.

Why is it that the people who are most convinced the scatter laser is the most broken thing in existence are the people who want it to cost half as much as it would if you took the sensible solution? Is the Scatterbike merely 15% too cheap? Or is the problem that you get a heavy weapon on every model, unlike every Troops unit in the game?

There is no way in my mind that a scatterlaser in the current rule set is only 15 pts. It's every bit as good as an assault cannon. Even better, because of the platform.

I think the Str 5 nerf is actually bigger than a 10 pt price hike. S6 is so good in 7th ed. This can't be underestimated.

" If you leave the scatter laser at 10pts and restrict them to 1/3 of the unit you're paying 61pts for each weapon. "

The ship sailed on this "fix" with the current model kit. Just price them what they are worth with no restrictions. Which is 20 pts per gun. They do EVERYTHING. That should cost a LOT.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I say give them a 4+, and Scatterlasers 15 points. No need to completely massacre the unit entry.

The 4+ massacres them worse than a price hike imo. They have jink every crappy heavy bolter that points their way.

Martel732 wrote:
There is no way in my mind that a scatterlaser in the current rule set is only 15 pts. It's every bit as good as an assault cannon. Even better, because of the platform.

I think the Str 5 nerf is actually bigger than a 10 pt price hike. S6 is so good in 7th ed. This can't be underestimated.

" If you leave the scatter laser at 10pts and restrict them to 1/3 of the unit you're paying 61pts for each weapon. "

The ship sailed on this "fix" with the current model kit. Just price them what they are worth with no restrictions. Which is 20 pts per gun. They do EVERYTHING. That should cost a LOT.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I say give them a 4+, and Scatterlasers 15 points. No need to completely massacre the unit entry.

The 4+ massacres them worse than a price hike imo. They have jink every crappy heavy bolter that points their way.

They don't HAVE to. However, it gives AP4 a little better niche than previously.

It's the "every model gets one" that upsets most players. 99% of all other Troops in the game with special weapon options can only have a few per unit, thereby making the weapon cost its points, plus the points of the models that are sitting around doing nothing.

It is actually this ability to spam the Scatter laser that makes it seem broken. I used to play long before Bikes could take anything more than 1 Shuricannon per 3 model. At this time, Scatter lasers were consider ok, but only really using on War Walkers, which could spam them. This was still rarely considered broken unless you dedicated points to 3 War Walkers, a Faseer to guide them and yet another unit for the Farseer to bunker in. That's a lot of points.
The Scatter laser is NOT worth 20ppm, maybe 15, but only as a deterrent to spamming them. It you put in the mandatory limit to prevent the spam, you can keep the cost where it is.

Martel732 wrote:

The ship sailed on this "fix" with the current model kit. Just price them what they are worth with no restrictions. Which is 20 pts per gun. They do EVERYTHING. That should cost a LOT.
.

Previously, the existence of the plastic kit allowing all the models to take weapons was the reason why taking them back to 1 per 3 was illogical. But now that Black Guardian Windriders exist, an Elite choice that can have all the weapons, the Troop Windriders can go back to 1 per 3, without the plastic kit having "wasted" spare weapons.

You can also overnerf if not careful. only having a 4+ save, 1 weapon per 3 bikes and 20ppm for a str 5 Scatter laser will instantly make Windriders a garbage unit. The idea here is to choose the right 1 or 2 nerfs and be done.

Keeping Scatter lasers as they are, but 1 per 3 is a good SINGLE nerf.
Making Scatter str5 is a good SINGLE nerf (and my personally favorite)
Making WIndriders 4+ sv, but still taking weapons on every bike is a decent single nerf that could go well with 15ppm Scatters.

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 Galef wrote:
That's also an option and "feels" more like they should be but keep in mind how that would affect Farseers and Warlocks. Farseers would still be worth it, but Warlock Skyrunners are already on the fence about being worth taking.

Are you saying 15pt Scats, but every model can take them?
That could work, especially if they are now easier to kill.

The Warlock Skyrunners will still be taken so long as there's a need for more Warp Charges as far as I know. People who weren't taking them still won't take them, and people who were are still going to. I think that says more about the cost of the Warlock than anything.

"The Scatter laser is NOT worth 20ppm"

It absolutely is. The thing effectively makes cover meaningless, it kills Imperial knights, it sandpapers out all cost effective tanks, it sandpapers out most MCs and outranges almost all AP 3 weapons worth talking about.

A Str 5 scatterlaser is a 10 pt weapon.

" But now that Black Guardian Windriders exist"

Then these become the new problem unit. Nothing is fixed.

" It you put in the mandatory limit to prevent the spam, you can keep the cost where it is."

No, you can't. Because it's objectively worth 20 points per gun. It's a 36" assault cannon on a jetbike or other mobile platform.

 Galef wrote:
It's the "every model gets one" that upsets most players. 99% of all other Troops in the game with special weapon options can only have a few per unit, thereby making the weapon cost its points, plus the points of the models that are sitting around doing nothing.

It is actually this ability to spam the Scatter laser that makes it seem broken. I used to play long before Bikes could take anything more than 1 Shuricannon per 3 model. At this time, Scatter lasers were consider ok, but only really using on War Walkers, which could spam them. This was still rarely considered broken unless you dedicated points to 3 War Walkers, a Faseer to guide them and yet another unit for the Farseer to bunker in. That's a lot of points.
The Scatter laser is NOT worth 20ppm, maybe 15, but only as a deterrent to spamming them. It you put in the mandatory limit to prevent the spam, you can keep the cost where it is.

Martel732 wrote:

The ship sailed on this "fix" with the current model kit. Just price them what they are worth with no restrictions. Which is 20 pts per gun. They do EVERYTHING. That should cost a LOT.
.

Previously, the existence of the plastic kit allowing all the models to take weapons was the reason why taking them back to 1 per 3 was illogical. But now that Black Guardian Windriders, an Elite choice, exist, the Troop Windriders can go back to 1 per 3, without the plastic kit having "wasted" spare weapons.

You can also overnerf if not careful. only having a 4+ save, 1 weapon per 3 bikes and 20ppm for a str 5 Scatter laser will instantly make Windriders a garbage unit. The idea here is to choose the right 1 or 2 nerfs and be done.

Keeping Scatter lasers as they are, but 1 per 3 is a good SINGLE nerf.
Making Scatter str5 is a good SINGLE nerf (and my personally favorite)
Making WIndriders 4+ sv, but still taking weapons on every bike is a decent single nerf that could go well with 15ppm Scatters.

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Black Guardian Jetbikes are a different entity and too new to really use for comparisons. They're already more expensive in the first place aren't they?
Plus there's the Spears that still need some reworking...

Black guardian jetbikes better be 30 pt/model if the scatterlaser is only 10 pts.

The fact that they're Elites and not substitutable for standard Windriders in the Windrider Host makes them a lot harder to spam, actually.

jade_angel wrote:
The fact that they're Elites and not substitutable for standard Windriders in the Windrider Host makes them a lot harder to spam, actually.

A standard CAD could still bring what? 30?

Yeah, at the cost of no other Elites, and it'd be 3x10, which is a lot easier to deal with than 6x5. No more Elites rules out Wraithguard, BTW, unless you're using one of the formations with them, which usually have Wraithblades or Wraithlords as a tax.

Still strong, no doubt at all, since you can get most of the other Elites that are worth a damn through the Aspect Host formation, but at least a little harder to spam.

Black Guardian Windriders are 20ppm with TL catapults, BTW, with the usual 10 points for a scatter laser or shuricannon. Still too cheap, but that plus the move to Elites is a little less annoying.

I haven't seen many Wraithguard lately actually. Occasionally some in a serpent.

Scatter lasers and Assault cannons are not comparable, but let's assume for a moment that both cost 15ppm.

Scatter laser Pros:
-additional range

Assault cannon Pros:
-have better AP and Rending, therefore can threaten any unit no matter what

That is literally the only difference between the 2. Assault cannons are way better. The reason they blow in practice is the platforms they occupy. Scatter laser APPEAR way better than Assault cannons because you can get 10x more of them in a list on more mobile units.
If you could take Assault cannons in the same capacity, there would be no contest. Scatter Lasers "sand paper" units because they're everywhere. Assault cannons would "buzz saw" through anything they looked at if you could take 1 on every Marine biker.

I am trying to deal with that exact platform issue. Less Scatters mean they are way less effective. Less effectiveness means lower points cost.
We couldn't realistically talk about lowering the number of Scats because the kit physically came with so many, but now that a unit exists that is A) an Elite, thus never being ObSec or filling minimum slots and B) costs more to field, we can now discuss making the Troop Windriders only 1 per 3 again and the kit doesn't need to factor in anymore

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 Galef wrote:
...

Martel732 wrote:

The ship sailed on this "fix" with the current model kit. Just price them what they are worth with no restrictions. Which is 20 pts per gun. They do EVERYTHING. That should cost a LOT.
.

Previously, the existence of the plastic kit allowing all the models to take weapons was the reason why taking them back to 1 per 3 was illogical. But now that Black Guardian Windriders exist, an Elite choice that can have all the weapons, the Troop Windriders can go back to 1 per 3, without the plastic kit having "wasted" spare weapons.

You can also overnerf if not careful. only having a 4+ save, 1 weapon per 3 bikes and 20ppm for a str 5 Scatter laser will instantly make Windriders a garbage unit. The idea here is to choose the right 1 or 2 nerfs and be done.

Keeping Scatter lasers as they are, but 1 per 3 is a good SINGLE nerf.
Making Scatter str5 is a good SINGLE nerf (and my personally favorite)
Making WIndriders 4+ sv, but still taking weapons on every bike is a decent single nerf that could go well with 15ppm Scatters.

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4+ armour makes sense. You get to make Eldar jetbikes of the same shape and size broadly comparable across factions (if you buff Reavers to 4+ armour as well).

S5 makes sense. You're taking an anti-infantry heavy machine gun and making it operate at a similar strength to anti-infantry heavy machine guns in other armies. You're giving the shuriken cannon a more obvious niche. And you're taking a general-purpose gun and making it more general-purpose/less of the optimal choice at a specific task.

One heavy weapon per model makes NO SENSE. Look at an arbitrary imaginary unit that's composed of 3-12 jetbikes with heavy weapons and you're going to guess that it's a 30k Heavy Support unit, not a *bleep*ing ObSec-capable 40k Troops unit.

No matter how expensive you make the Scatter Laser you will NEVER make one gun per model make ANY SENSE.

"But you can build them that way in the kit!" is a stupid argument. You can build a Space Marine Tactical Squad with a plasmagun, a heavy bolter, a missile launcher, a meltagun, a grav-gun, and a flamer out of the kit, they give you the parts to do it. They don't give you the parts to build a plasma cannon or a lascannon in that kit, that doesn't mean you can't have them in Tactical Squads. You can build a Land Raider with both sponsons on the same side out of the kit, they give you the parts to do it. You can put four heavy weapon on a War Walker, they give you the parts in the kit to do it. That doesn't mean that's how the unit works in the game, that doesn't mean that's how it should work, and that's sure as h*** not a good reason to try and take the stupid solution to fixing scatterbikes instead of the sensible one.

4+ save bikes with 1 per 3 Scatter laser or Shuricannon could work. They would certainly still be viable and probably still the best Eldar troop choice. But If they make that change, I hope it comes with a 1-2 ppm decrease. The change from 3+sv to 4+sv is pretty dramatic.

For example:
WIndriders are now 15ppm with their current statline, but a 4+ armour
1 per 3 can swap their twin-linked shuricats for the following:
1 Scatter laser - 15pts
1 Shuricannon - 10pts

That would mean that 3 bikes with 1 Scatter would be 60pts. That's 1 pt less than the same configuration is now, but only has a 4+ sv. 55pts would get you 3 bikes with a Shuricannon (which is close to the current Vyper's cost with 2 Shuricannons)
I'd be ok with that, so long as the Windrider host allowed up to 5 units instead of 3. You'll need the extra bodies.

EDIT: I feel like we are getting side-tracked for they main reason I started this, which was to discuss how to make the Vyper play more like an Eldar version on an Attack bike.

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 Galef wrote:
Scatter lasers and Assault cannons are not comparable, but let's assume for a moment that both cost 15ppm.

Scatter laser Pros:
-additional range

Assault cannon Pros:
-have better AP and Rending, therefore can threaten any unit no matter what

That is literally the only difference between the 2. Assault cannons are way better. The reason they blow in practice is the platforms they occupy. Scatter laser APPEAR way better than Assault cannons because you can get 10x more of them in a list on more mobile units.
If you could take Assault cannons in the same capacity, there would be no contest. Scatter Lasers "sand paper" units because they're everywhere. Assault cannons would "buzz saw" through anything they looked at if you could take 1 on every Marine biker.

I am trying to deal with that exact platform issue. Less Scatters mean they are way less effective. Less effectiveness means lower points cost.
We couldn't realistically talk about lowering the number of Scats because the kit physically came with so many, but now that a unit exists that is A) an Elite, thus never being ObSec or filling minimum slots and B) costs more to field, we can now discuss making the Troop Windriders only 1 per 3 again and the kit doesn't need to factor in anymore

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The 12" range is huge. You should know that by now.

 Galef wrote:
4+ save bikes with 1 per 3 Scatter laser or Shuricannon could work. They would certainly still be viable and probably still the best Eldar troop choice. But If they make that change, I hope it come with a 1-2 ppm decrease. The change from 3+sv to 4+sv is pretty dramatic.

Not that dramatic on models with decent range and JSJ. If it were up to me I'd make them Skilled Riders while doing this as part of the make-all-Eldar-jetbikes-work-similarly initiative (Reavers are currently 5+/Skilled Rider, Skyweavers are 4+/Skilled Rider, Craftworld/Corsair bikes are 3+, Shining Spears are 3+/Skilled Rider; I'd make them all 4+/Skilled Rider (but leave Shining Spears as 3+ because of heavy Aspect armour)), but they're going to remain quite expensive models with one Wound either way. Their survival is already contingent on hiding somewhere the other guy can't get at them easily.

Martel732 wrote:

The 12" range is huge. You should know that by now.

Indeed it can be, But I have been play-testing mixed units for over a year now (1 Scatter laser and 2 Shuricannons) and about 80-90% of the time I can still be in 24" range and manage to still jump back out of retaliation. The 10-20% it have mattered and I lost the unit because I was too close, I was still glad to have some Bladestorm.
Getting AP2 on some wounds makes more units Jink, removes more wounds from MCs, and overall give a more general purpose weapon.

Assault cannons would be an amazing weapon if they were more accessible. Scatter lasers are awesome mostly because of their availability, which lends to them rolling more average success.

I do like the idea of all Aeldari bikes from every codex having a 4+ armour (3+ for Shining Spears and Autarchs due to their armour) and Skilled RIder. Skilled Rider would give them the 3+ if they really wanted to Jink for it, but at the cost of Snap-firing. It would play more like Eldar do in the fluff that use their speed as a defense, rather than straight armour.

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"Assault cannon Pros:
-have better AP and Rending, therefore can threaten any unit no matter what"

This is actually a disadvantage, because it makes people think it can hurt things when it can't do it reliably enough. The assault cannon has so few shots that it might as well not have rending. The 24" range is murder because it puts you withing range of grav and other unpleasant weapons.

"Scatter lasers are awesome mostly because of their availability"

No, their stat line is straight up broken in 7th. If S6 couldn't scrub out so many vehicles, maybe not. But it's nuts in 7th ed. Straight up nuts.

The issue is you guys are going WAY too far just to kill the unit. Nobody is going to take them if you add that many nerfs, on top of nobody taking a S5 Scatterlaser ever. I say the 4+ and 15 points Scatterlaser is not as drastic and therefore worth playtesting first due to more familiarity and easier to tweak.