Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So here's a topic for you.

First, this isn't 'MDG bends your ear with pious drivel'. Because that would make me TFG, not MDG (TDGMDG, or MDGTFG?) thus getting the thread off to the very poorest start.

Instead, I want to explore what the various and sundry dakkanauts consider good sportsmanship/gamesmanship, in the hope it might lead us all to some introspection, and help us all be/become better opponents. (Which is not to suggest there's a widespread TFG issue on Dakka or the hobby - it's just a title)

Whilst I suspect we'll see commonalities, I'm also expecting different views to be opposites - but hey, that's our hobby. Discussion and heated discussion is to be expected, but don't make it personal, yeah?

So my initial thoughts?

Provided you've got the time, do stick about post game for a natter.

Hygiene matters. Sure during the day we can all get whiffy, and not all deodorants are equal...but there is a limit. This goes doubly so if you'll be sharing dice or templates, or suspect you might want to check my Codex/iPad and the rules contained therein.

Getting a grump on when the dice betray you is one thing. Whining throughout the game is quite another.

In this, as in all things, at least be humane.

Generally, don't be a dick.

And something specific I've learned recently-if a die is maybe cocked, immediately ask your opponent if they want a reroll.

But how do people quantify someone being a Richard?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But how do people quantify someone being a Richard?

Black Magic.

There's really no quantifiable way. Some things are definitely NOT that (bringing snacks, being polite, having well painted models), some things definitely are (flipping tables, smashing models, swearing at your opponent because they roll well), but where exactly the line is is hard to tell.

Swearing for me isn't a total no-no, mostly because I could make a Sailor blush.

For instance, getting 'rubber lance syndrome' would necessitate a 'bollocks' from me.

But, swearing at me in a way that's not banter or playful self-expression? No ta.

That is what I meant. Dropping an F-Bomb because you rolled 7 1s on 8 dice? Totally fine, assuming your opponent doesn't mind some swearing.

I was talking about cussing out an opponent for rolling well-offensive swearing.

It's a combination of courtesy and grace. Be friendly and polite*, whether winning or losing. Be sympathetic of your opponent's bad rolls, and share the joy of his good rolls.

*Obviously different groups will have different standards for 'polite'; work to discover what they are and abide by them as best you can.

Yeah I swear plenty but not 'at' anyone. Out club has a no swearing rule but that more applies to shouting and screaming and not an "oh fudge it!!" when you drop a model.

As for being a good opponent;
•be friendly and offer up some chat/banter,
•help set up and tidy away,
•turn up on time (I fail allot on this cos of work but do turn up),
•buy a drink or two (especially if your late)
•keep any anti-game or anti-faction chat to yourself
•don't give a toss about the result
•Officers mess rules: no politics no money and no religion chat,
•self depreciating humer is always classy, no one like 'The Big Man' act.
• Play by the rules, ask if you not sure, definitely ask if your about to unleash some hardcore gambit or any rules lawyering or shenanigans even if legit.
•always player allcomers lists.

DON'TS

Don't eat at the table. Crumbs stick to miniatures and I don't want them in my carrying cases.

Don't handle my models without using some Purell. I don't mind you admiring my Fire Raptor, I mind when paint comes off cleaning up greasy fingerprints that are clearly visible a week later.

Don't wager money on the outcome of any part of a game. I hate losing my own money and taking someone's else's with equal vigor. My competitive spirit improves my dice rolls the moment there's a dime to be had.

Don't argue rules for more than 2 minutes per instance. If it takes that long to get to the correct interpretation, it's simpler to roll off for a determination.

Don't stop for a phone call during your turn. Unless someone died or had a baby, we are here to have fun together.

Don't let your kids fondle the models during play. Exposing children to wargaming can be informative and fulfilling and I really don't mind you bringing them. Part of that enjoyment should include respecting the rules.

DOS

Do write down your list and be willing to share it. Constructing a list from memory scares me.

Do creatively interpret the rules. I really don't mind, even if others would consider it cheating. Part of my enjoyment of the game is keeping everyone else honest, some of the best times I have had as a player have been debating whether or not something is legal.

Do be willing to help other players with the game. I have no problem taking a time out to help a new player and will respect you more for offering some mentorship to others.

Do show up on time. I genuinely appreciate you for choosing to play against me and eagerly anticipate our match.

Do paint your models. I have walked away from a game against bare armies. It shows you care.

Do let me know if you need help. I don't like the feeling I have some huge knowledge advantage over someone. I want you to have fun too.

If your opponent sets you on fire, he's likely a dick. Unless you're a witch. In which case, it's the proper punishment for that sort of thing. Don't be a witch, and you shouldn't get set on fire unless your opponent is a dick.

What is this topic about again?

Freddy's Do and Don't list:

DO:
- Allow others to use your dice/measure/templates if required, because sometimes we all forget to pack em.
- Practice good hygiene. This needs no explanation.
- Create an easy to read and understand army list. You might understand shorthand, but you opponent might not.
- Treat all boards and terrain with care, especially if it's the FLGS stock. No one wants busted stuff to use.
- Be flexible in your army lists. No one wants to play cheese 24/7.
- Try to be punctual. 5 mins late isn't a big deal, but try to let them know if you are running 15+ mins late.
- Be respectful of your opponents army choices. No one wants to be ridiculed for using x because it's cool.
- Be respectful of you opponents modeling/painting. We all started somewhere, and not everyone is 'Eavy Metal perfect.
- Lastly, above all else, HAVE FUN!

DON'T:
- Pick up others models without asking. It's just plain rude.
- Eat right by the table. Spillages WILL happen.
- Eat very aromatic food in the game area. Not everyone likes the smells, so be courteous.
- Swear for the sake of it. Occasional swears on lucky/unlucky rolls is fine. Sounding like a recording of the Goodfellas film does not.
- Turn up Ill or sick. You won't have fun and likely pass on the germs.
- Wash your hands before the game. Especially after eating.
- Be a rules commissar. Not everyone knows everything, so be polite when addressing a specific rule.
- Argue over rules. Keep sheets or the rules handy in case of questions
- Be salty of dice rolls. Lady luck is fickle
- Rage quit. It really doesn't make you look good.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Do paint your models. I have walked away from a game against bare armies. It shows you care.

Freddy Kruger wrote:- Be respectful of you opponents modeling/painting. We all started somewhere, and not everyone is 'Eavy Metal perfect.

I notice there is a rift here. I notice it often and many places.

As someone who plays with grey/primed models, and unfinished terrain at times, I find it intriguing that others can be so picky about how one's models are colored or not.

 Carnikang wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Do paint your models. I have walked away from a game against bare armies. It shows you care.

Freddy Kruger wrote:- Be respectful of you opponents modeling/painting. We all started somewhere, and not everyone is 'Eavy Metal perfect.

I notice there is a rift here. I notice it often and many places.

As someone who plays with grey/primed models, and unfinished terrain at times, I find it intriguing that others can be so picky about how one's models are colored or not.

In the interest of avoiding a rather common Dakka Flame War, I will try to phrase this in a fairly neutral manner. Some people derive a lot of enjoyment from seeing two nicely painted armies going at it. Their enjoyment is reduced if they are matched against an unpainted army. Therefore, they will often avoid playing an unpainted army. Some people would be happy pushing cardboard tokens around the board to represent the game. They do not prioritize painting models. These people do not see eye to eye. They argue. Threads get dragged off topic.

I think, a good way to phrase it in the context of this thread, would be as follows:

"Talk to your opponent about their goals in the game and how they have fun with it, and do your best to help them achieve maximum joy."

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
In the interest of avoiding a rather common Dakka Flame War, I will try to phrase this in a fairly neutral manner. Some people derive a lot of enjoyment from seeing two nicely painted armies going at it. Their enjoyment is reduced if they are matched against an unpainted army. Therefore, they will often avoid playing an unpainted army. Some people would be happy pushing cardboard tokens around the board to represent the game. They do not prioritize painting models. These people do not see eye to eye. They argue. Threads get dragged off topic.

Well said.

On the subject of it all: Perhaps relax when you play, enjoy being with the community and other players. I know at times I go to the games store just to be around others that are playing.

Being open, warm, inviting even, can make all the difference when you play someone.

Won't repeat a lot of the solid advice already written above. I'll add one thing: Have a solid understanding of your army. We all have to look up a rule or stat here and there but when you have to look up every dice roll for every unit the game bogs down and becomes less enjoyable.

It may be more of a personal failing, or not depending, but I've found that people tend to get saltier quicker and remain so if drinking is involved. Then again, I hang out with people that drink like camels, so that might just be our group.

But yeah, I think what's most important is a little introspection. Recognizing that you might have a tendency to get saltier than the Dead Sea about every failed roll is important, I used to be that way and not only did it bother my gaming group a lot, I genuinely spent every weekend that we played upset. It took awhile but now I can add humor to almost everything and it's helped A LOT.

 Frankenberry wrote:
It may be more of a personal failing, or not depending, but I've found that people tend to get saltier quicker and remain so if drinking is involved. Then again, I hang out with people that drink like camels, so that might just be our group.

But yeah, I think what's most important is a little introspection. Recognizing that you might have a tendency to get saltier than the Dead Sea about every failed roll is important, I used to be that way and not only did it bother my gaming group a lot, I genuinely spent every weekend that we played upset. It took awhile but now I can add humor to almost everything and it's helped A LOT.

Laugh at everything.
If the drink is the deciding factor they'll laugh along with you.
If not you're hanging with suppressed grouches - the drink just makes them honest about it.

 Carnikang wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Do paint your models. I have walked away from a game against bare armies. It shows you care.

Freddy Kruger wrote:- Be respectful of you opponents modeling/painting. We all started somewhere, and not everyone is 'Eavy Metal perfect.

I notice there is a rift here. I notice it often and many places.

As someone who plays with grey/primed models, and unfinished terrain at times, I find it intriguing that others can be so picky about how one's models are colored or not.

Big difference between primed and grey. One is on the way to being painted.

TBH, it's not an issue with aesthetics. It's a red flag about other issues.

My experience - which certainly does not hold true for every player - is the people who run these armies are in a rush. They often don't have time for a full game, they don't know all the rules, they have a hard time keeping track of what units are in their own army. Eventually, one or both of us ends up disappointed.

Big one for me?

If things do get out of hand (we all have bad days, and serious dice betrayal is easily the proverbial straw) do apologise to your opponent. They don't need to know the whole story, but a simple 'sorry dude. I overreacted' is all that's needed.

1) Follow the normal rules of behavior in everyday life: clean clothes, not acting like a , etc.

2) Bring a fully painted army, painted to at least a reasonable tabletop standard. Pay someone to paint your models for you if you have to, but don't put unpainted garbage on the table.

3) Understand the math behind the game so you don't have to whine and cry about how unfair everything is when your "invulnerable" unit (terminators, etc) rolls statistically average and suffers casualties. A 5/6 chance of saving a wound does not mean that you will never lose models. Dice are a source of frustration, but if you're going to complain about them at least know enough to recognize when the dice luck isn't actually very exceptional and STFU.

4) Do not, under any circumstances, touch my models without asking, and accept that the answer is going to be "no". Unless, of course, you would like to have your head mounted on a pole in front of the store as a warning to others.

5) Do not whine and cry when I don't let you bend the rules in your favor. If your model is 0.001" out of range (as clearly measured with the appropriate template) you are not in range. I am not going to give you the extra distance no matter how much you complain about "poor sportsmanship", you're just being TFG.

 Peregrine wrote:

5) Do not whine and cry when I don't let you bend the rules in your favor. If your model is 0.001" out of range (as clearly measured with the appropriate template) you are not in range. I am not going to give you the extra distance no matter how much you complain about "poor sportsmanship", you're just being TFG.

And to Peregrine's last point - don't expect leniency yourself if you prefer to game this way. Personally, I'm more forgiving, especially if it will add some excitement to the game - but if you're on the top tables at a tournament, I can see being very strict about distances / cocked dice / forgotten steps in a phase / etc.

 Peregrine wrote:
1) Follow the normal rules of behavior in everyday life: clean clothes, not acting like a , etc.

2) Bring a fully painted army, painted to at least a reasonable tabletop standard. Pay someone to paint your models for you if you have to, but don't put unpainted garbage on the table.

3) Understand the math behind the game so you don't have to whine and cry about how unfair everything is when your "invulnerable" unit (terminators, etc) rolls statistically average and suffers casualties. A 5/6 chance of saving a wound does not mean that you will never lose models. Dice are a source of frustration, but if you're going to complain about them at least know enough to recognize when the dice luck isn't actually very exceptional and STFU.

4) Do not, under any circumstances, touch my models without asking, and accept that the answer is going to be "no". Unless, of course, you would like to have your head mounted on a pole in front of the store as a warning to others.

5) Do not whine and cry when I don't let you bend the rules in your favor. If your model is 0.001" out of range (as clearly measured with the appropriate template) you are not in range. I am not going to give you the extra distance no matter how much you complain about "poor sportsmanship", you're just being TFG.

1) Agree 100%.

2) Only agree if that's what you and your opponent prefer. I personally don't mind grey plastic, though painted is better. ESPECIALLY if you just got something and want to try it out-I expect it to at least be BUILT, but not painted is okay.

3) Feel free to moan (a little bit) if your 2+ rerollable by 2+ FNP fails 3 times in 5 attacks. Just... Don't expect me to moan with you. Because you're fielding Smash.

4) Agreed-don't touch without permission. That being said, most people in my experience are okay with touching each other's models. Just ask, definitely.

5) Give yourself and your opponent the same level of leniency. If something is 1 nm out of range, and you say it's in range, it's in range for both you AND your opponent.

Be prepared.

Before leaving your boudoir...list? Codex? Rule book? Necessary templates? Tape measure? Dice? All the models you need?

Finding your opponent has forgotten their Flamer Template or Scatter Dice is one thing. Finding they've literally only brought their models is quite another.

Talk to your opponent and find out what type of game they want before you play. That will settle most issues pretty quick.

Going to throw out one that mainly applies in friendly games: Be decisive; plan your moves and shooting while your opponent is taking their turn and be ready to put the plan into action no matter how bad it ends up being. One thing that bothers me when playing is the person who hems and haws about everything. At the end of the day the fate of nations does not rely the choices being made on the table with our toy soldiers. It's one thing to waffle at pivotal moments in the game perhaps, or similarly during the final rounds of a tournament, but playing someone who spends 2-3 minutes per unit obsessing over each and every possible maneuver and shooting possibility for each unit makes the game an exercise in tedium. From skimming some tournament threads it's also a way people game the timed systems to force a better result than they'd get through play which also strikes me as being a bad opponent.

Obviously there are exceptions for people learning the game system and such, but if you know the core rules then even with a new army go with the quick decision. If it's wrong, try to figure out why it was wrong and learn to make better decisions; it is a truism that we learn much more from mistakes than successes anyway. Since you moved much faster in the game perhaps you now have time for another round to try and put those lessons into practice immediately!

I think tbh everybody has pretty much covered the things I would mention.

My most important rule though - You are there to have FUN.

But more important than that you are BOTH meant to have fun.

That's not always easy, different people have different expectations of what fun means. If you are playing a new opponent for the first time have a quick chat about what they like about the game and what they want out of it. You don't need a full life story out of them but you'll be able to judge fairly quickly whether you have the same ideas or not.

You can usually tell if your opponent is enjoying the game or not pretty quickly, don't take away their enjoyment by being a dick but on the other hand don't compromise your fun either.

And don't get into arguments over rules - second most important rule - "It's a game about a war, not a war about a game."

I think a pre-game convo is definitely a good idea - provided of course it's not a Tournament (time constraints, and being a Tournament should inform you what's expected!)

The key to that is being willing to compromise. For example, ifyou want to field something like a Wraithknignt or Imperial Knight, don't take offence if your opponent asks if you could leave it out - just carry some 'swapsies' models in your case, just in case. Same goes for certain notorious formations.

I dare say it'd be common for them to take on the challenge, but respect their wishes - not everyone finds that level of challenge fun, especially if it's a random pick-up game. So be ready to pull out your B List army, where the really nasty stuff isn't fielded.(collection allowing of course!)

Most of all, respect The Hobby. My Hobby isn't necessarily your Hobby - even though we play the same game. I for one enjoy tough games, and will face pretty much anything with my themed forces. Your Hobby may be more Tournament focussed. Nobody is wrong, nobody is right. Just different.

Keep that in mind and look for the common ground. For instance, let's say my opponent is hoping to get some useful experience for a forthcoming tournament, and his army reflects that. Well, my forces might not be able to provide what he's looking for - I tend toward themed, unusual lists. Doesn't stop us having a good game, but might mean he doesn't achieve what he was hoping. Here, I might ask if there's a particular mission in the tournament he's rusty at. If there is, so much the better. Whilst I might not stand up too well to a 'fully optimised top tier list'*, I can certainly look to give him the run around in the mission, possibly leading him to reassess his selection and target. Whether the game was tough for him or not is then less important - he's still got at least of the experience he was hoping for


*Whatever that is. Sounds like a buzzword to me. And quite arbitrary. I could very well be wrong though. Wouldn't be the first time.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
And just thinking further about helping to provide a challenge....

If you've got a mahoosive collection, it's probably worth asking if there's anything your opponent does want to face.

To continue the above example - if you've got IG, maybe your opponent would relish the opportunity to take on an Armoured Company style army - just to stretch his set force with an unusual tactical challenge.

I think that being a good opponent is a lot like being a gentleman in general. Behave with both self respect and respect for you opponents time and dignity.

Be prepared, and use time efficiently.

Do the best you can to bring a visually appealing army that is WYSIWYG.

Make an effort to tailor your list to the intensity level of the game you're playing. If it's tournament prep, don't bring a fluffy list. If playing a new player, bring something softer.

Above all, be liberal in cutting your opponent some slack, while not expecting any in return.