Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Tyranid warriors cant have wings!

Instead they are a seperate fast attack option... the Tyranid Shrike!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This makes me think GW will finally realease a proper kit for them

kirsanth wrote:SitW causes perils on a pair of 1's or 6's, rolled on three dice. IIRC that is the wording

If three are rolled, is that a pair?
This comes up occationally in Eldar discussions.

German codex says that there have to be two 6s or 1s showing. So yeah and is a brainfry.

Greets
Schepp himself

Schepp himself wrote:

kirsanth wrote:SitW causes perils on a pair of 1's or 6's, rolled on three dice. IIRC that is the wording

If three are rolled, is that a pair?
This comes up occationally in Eldar discussions.

German codex says that there have to be two 6s or 1s showing. So yeah and is a brainfry.

Greets
Schepp himself

If you've ever played Cribbage, you know that 3 of a kind is actually 3 separate pairs - so wouldn't that be *3* wounds from perils on a or a ?!?

"Any enemy Psyker that takes a psychic test within 12" of a Tyranid with the Shadow in the Warp special rule must take the test on 3D6 and will suffer a Perils of the Warp attack on the roll of any double 1 or double 6"

But come on saying a roll of 6 6 6 isnt a double is taking rules rape a bit far isnt it? isnt it?!

If you were to declare that a roll of 6 6 6 doesn't have a pair in it.... I would be afraid of the symbolism of that number in relation to your attitude on gaming...

It's a stupid stupid stupid argument that originated with Runes of Warding. Hopefully they worded it better so we can avoid a YMDC firestorm. To say you can't roll doubles on 3 dice is just ludicrous, but the argument was--I still don't get it, but it apparently appeals to some people. Mostly people who are playing Eldar who use lots of psykers is my guess.

apwill4765 wrote:It's a stupid stupid stupid argument that originated with Runes of Warding. Hopefully they worded it better so we can avoid a YMDC firestorm. To say you can't roll doubles on 3 dice is just ludicrous, but the argument was--I still don't get it, but it apparently appeals to some people. Mostly people who are playing Eldar who use lots of psykers is my guess.

Again, the codex states that if two(2) of the three(3) D6 show a pair(2) of ones(1s) or sixes(6s) then you have failed for the last time...

Greets
Schepp himself

Yes, but if the english translation does not explicitly say that, then english-codex users are going to have issues.

Read my earlier reply, thats word for word what the codex states!

Wording or not I don't get how 3 of a kind =/= equal a pair. It doesn't in poker but 2 get 3 of something you had to first have gotten a pair of something.

Then there should be no debate. Seems pretty clear to me.

So it looks like elite slots are going to be the most heavily contested slots... I think I'm going to go with a combination of 3 zoeys, 3 hive guard, and a death leaper. I have to buy some hive guard I suppose. But that gives me a fairly decent shot at taking out armor and transports, and takes care of enemy psykers as well. How are you guys going to fill out the elite slots?

Darth Bob wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Darth Bob wrote:This debate is about as stupid as the "you have to choose one weapon in CC" debate. Why would they call them Tyrant Guard if they can't guard the Tyrant...really? It's common sense people.

That is they way rules read however.
That said, the CC weapon issue is somewhat avoided as I read it -- none of the CC weapon upgrades are really special close combat weapons, nor do they have to be "used" to get the effects.
The Tyrant Guard issue I saw as I read the book, and seems either an oversight or extra bad nerf.

Another fun part is again coming back to "Is there a double in a set of three" issue, for SitW.

I'm 99.9% positive its an oversight. There is almost no benefit in taking Tyrant Guard if they are unable to do their job as guards. Games Workshop is not that stupid, they want money, and they know that if they made the ruling for Guard to not be capable of guarding the Tyrant, no-one would by guard model anymore, because there would be no point, especially with their raised point cost and unchanged statline.

Not quite sure what you mean by the last sentence, elaborate?

Counter Argument: Pyrovore-pay Terminator points cost for a 2 wound, 4+ save heavy flamer with a single I1 power weapon attack. Carnifex- everything he can do, another unit can do better, cheaper, and faster.

Edit: The point is, GW(well, the codex writers at the least) has a history of just doing silly things that don't seem to make sense. They may very well have felt that Hive Tyrants were going to be dangerous enough that it wouldn't be fair to other players if they couldn't fire on him right away., and the guards should just be offensive support in cc.(and the Tyrant should have a massive points hike just in case) The existence of the freak-out when leaderless rule the Tyrant guard have seems to support that. Who knows unless they release designers notes. Another example would be the triple-nerf the assault cannon saw. Rending was nerfed, assault cannons were priced higher, and the number of platforms it could be fielded on was limited or made exhorbitantly expensive. Or the double-nerf to powerfists, where all of the powerfist options I saw went up to 25 points a piece and could no longer be combined with anything but another powerfist for an extra attack. This stuff happens.

The Hive tyrant has a psychic power "Leech Essence"

Its an auto hit psychic shooting power, does D3 S3 AP2 hits and for each wound caused the tyrant gains a wound!

Not sure the big guy needs regen any more, but with both hes unstoppable... except he gets owned by force weapons as hes not an eternal warrior?!

There's apparently a theme to this book for making Tyranids easy to kill, which would be fine if they didn't also make all the important creatures severely expensive. I'd hardly call D3 hits S3 AP2 reliable enough to actually leech wounds from anything but GEQ's, but that's if the Tyrant survives all the shooting he's going to take now that no one is sure that guards actually guard the Tyrant rather than simply acting as a choppy retinue. Tervigons help because apparently the wording on the Feel No Pain (useless on your MC's for obvious reasons) power just mentions friendly units rather than just Termagants, and Venomthropes act as a sort of KFF, but for the most part the Codex has fragility and expense written all over it.

Oh, and a T5 4+ monstrous creature. Just so your opponents' heavy bolters can claim they killed a monstrous creature too.

can winged warriors have a venom cannon? not heavy but a standard.

but for the most part the Codex has fragility and expense written all over it.

140-170 points for 6 T6 wounds and AS3+ is not fragile in my opinion. Mawloc pays 170 for 6 T6 wounds, and the Tervigon costs nearly the same amount with the catalyst power. Three Hive Guard cost 150 points and have 6 T6 wounds as well. 25-30 points per T6 wound is not what I would describe as fragile at all, especially considering how easily they gain cover saves and even FNP.

A lot of units are overpriced yes (Carnifex is the worst unit in the book by far), but then you just don't use them. Use the underpriced units, and there's a couple of them too.

I don't really expect the new guys to apply to that principal because, well, new guys. The Mawloc/Trygon is the new kit that certainly helps to kill the Carnifex. As for the Tyrant guards, yeah they are a pretty good deal as long as they actually guard the Tyrant from shooting. However from what I've been reading from people who have been over the codex, Tyrants get expensive really, really fast when you want to make them durable or extra killy, and the Tervigon tends to have that problem as well. 6W and regeneration go well together though. I think that the removal of Eternal Warrior, while irritating, does have an upside in that your opponent will actually have to decide whether he wants to use lascannons, missile launchers and such on the monstrous creatures or the thankfully cheaper Warriors.

I'm a bit worried that the book will come down to those 3 units and support while the other units just don't do enough before they get killed to justify NOT taking the few star players.

I have a feeling the Carnifex will find it niche, when enough people get their hands on it i'm sure a few setups will be worth taking, just like in the old book. I have heard great things about 2x scything talon fexs.

Sneezypanda wrote:I have a feeling the Carnifex will find it niche, when enough people get their hands on it i'm sure a few setups will be worth taking, just like in the old book. I have heard great things about 2x scything talon fexs.

The niche is the same as before: long range anti-armor. Sure, Zoeys are S10 but 18" range - if they pod in, then assuming there's no Psychic Hood, they'll pop one tank and then get evaporated by bolter fire (T4 W2 3++ isn't that great against rapidfiring bolter squads. Hive Guard are admittedly good, but still only 24" range.

Heavy VC is 48" S9 blast Assault 2. For immobilizing and popping transports, it will be great, and it can stop tanks from firing as well.

I'm planning to run a Trygon, a brood of 2 VC/ST fexes, and a podding Dakkafex in my heavy support. In addition to 3 Zoeys (possibly in a pod) and 3 Hive Guard, and a Heavy VC on my walking Tyrant. A lot of people are meching up these days, and I'll want those enemy troops *out* of their transports where my little guys can get at them. The 3 Heavy VCs makes for another 12 wounds at T6 Sv3+ that must be eliminated in order to silence the anti-tank, in addition to the 12 T6 Sv3+ from the Hive Guard and the 6 T4 3++ from the Zoeys.

Yeah, it's a lot of points for those Fexes, but I think it will be worth it in today's mech'd up meta.

(T4 W2 3++ isn't that great against rapidfiring bolter squads.

Zoanthropes have W3 now and 60 points a pop isn't a lot considering they have multiple psychic powers automatically now on top of that BS4 S10 AP1 lance.

a brood of 2 VC/ST fexes

Cool, only 450 points for 8 T6 wounds with 3+ saves.

Railguns wrote:

Darth Bob wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Darth Bob wrote:This debate is about as stupid as the "you have to choose one weapon in CC" debate. Why would they call them Tyrant Guard if they can't guard the Tyrant...really? It's common sense people.

That is they way rules read however.
That said, the CC weapon issue is somewhat avoided as I read it -- none of the CC weapon upgrades are really special close combat weapons, nor do they have to be "used" to get the effects.
The Tyrant Guard issue I saw as I read the book, and seems either an oversight or extra bad nerf.

Another fun part is again coming back to "Is there a double in a set of three" issue, for SitW.

I'm 99.9% positive its an oversight. There is almost no benefit in taking Tyrant Guard if they are unable to do their job as guards. Games Workshop is not that stupid, they want money, and they know that if they made the ruling for Guard to not be capable of guarding the Tyrant, no-one would by guard model anymore, because there would be no point, especially with their raised point cost and unchanged statline.

Not quite sure what you mean by the last sentence, elaborate?

Counter Argument: Pyrovore-pay Terminator points cost for a 2 wound, 4+ save heavy flamer with a single I1 power weapon attack. Carnifex- everything he can do, another unit can do better, cheaper, and faster.

Edit: The point is, GW(well, the codex writers at the least) has a history of just doing silly things that don't seem to make sense. They may very well have felt that Hive Tyrants were going to be dangerous enough that it wouldn't be fair to other players if they couldn't fire on him right away., and the guards should just be offensive support in cc.(and the Tyrant should have a massive points hike just in case) The existence of the freak-out when leaderless rule the Tyrant guard have seems to support that. Who knows unless they release designers notes. Another example would be the triple-nerf the assault cannon saw. Rending was nerfed, assault cannons were priced higher, and the number of platforms it could be fielded on was limited or made exhorbitantly expensive. Or the double-nerf to powerfists, where all of the powerfist options I saw went up to 25 points a piece and could no longer be combined with anything but another powerfist for an extra attack. This stuff happens.

Counter-Counter Argument: The examples you have given did not change the function of the subject that they nerfed. The whole point of taking Guard was to act as a meatshield for the Tyrant. If the Tyrant is "dangerous enough" why does it need offensive support? I'll reiterate my statement; if the Tyrant Guard does not Guard the Tyrant...what is the insentive?

Therion wrote:
Zoanthropes have W3 now and 60 points a pop isn't a lot considering they have multiple psychic powers automatically now on top of that BS4 S10 AP1 lance.

Nope, Zoanthropes still have 2 wounds.

Strangelooper wrote:

Sneezypanda wrote:I have a feeling the Carnifex will find it niche, when enough people get their hands on it i'm sure a few setups will be worth taking, just like in the old book. I have heard great things about 2x scything talon fexs.

The niche is the same as before: long range anti-armor. Sure, Zoeys are S10 but 18" range - if they pod in, then assuming there's no Psychic Hood, they'll pop one tank and then get evaporated by bolter fire (T4 W2 3++ isn't that great against rapidfiring bolter squads. Hive Guard are admittedly good, but still only 24" range.

Heavy VC is 48" S9 blast Assault 2. For immobilizing and popping transports, it will be great, and it can stop tanks from firing as well.

Yeah, it's a lot of points for those Fexes, but I think it will be worth it in today's mech'd up meta.

I disagree. If you want that kind of long range fire power, I think you're better off with a Tyranofex. It's cheaper than running a pair of Fexes, with a stronger gun that doesn't get penalized on the damage chart, and packs a couple of extra anti-infantry guns at the same time. Two less wounds, but a better armor save. Not to mention I just like the idea of running something larger than a standard Fex.

LoLcAtMaN wrote:can winged warriors have a venom cannon? not heavy but a standard.

Yes they can



Ive just finished reading all the unit fluff and special rules, seems like a great list although no eternal warrior anywhere!

of course there are plenty of T6 unit (Tyrant, fex and trygon to name a few)

Tyrant guard CANNOT take wounds for the tyrant, He can join the unit but im not sure if he can still be picked out by shooting? The rule reads...

"Shieldwall: Tyrant Guard are used as living shields whose entire purpose is to protect the Hive tyrants from harm, heedless of any personal injury.

A Single Hive tyrant (Including the Swarmlord) may join a unit of tyrant guard exactly as if it were an independant creature. If a Hive tyrant (Or swarmlord) has joined a unit of Tyrant guard, the unit cannot go to ground, voluntarily or otherwise."

So rules experts, can an enemy pick the tyrant out of this unit? Im guessing not in Shooting only in CC but Im not sure!

Keldon_Uk wrote:can an enemy pick the tyrant out of this unit? Im guessing not in Shooting only in CC but Im not sure!

Wounds can be allocated to the Tyrant with volume of shots, but individually picked out? Not unless the unit has a special rule that lets you pick out a single character, same as any other independent character in a unit. Shieldwall just means that a monstrous creature can join infantry-sized models to form a unit, which normally cannot happen.

All normal independent character rules apply once he joins the unit.

"...May not go to ground, voluntarily or otherwise."

I assume this means they are immune to pinning? That's handy for the tyrant guard, at least.

I guess they just don't want deathstar Hive-tyrants running around with units of Tyrant Guard to soak up the damage.

My point, Darth Bob, is that the chances that a codex will contain design decisions or thematic changes that make no sense is very, very high. It doesn't have to make sense, the combination of poor editing, writer bias(Alessio's Skaven book), or bean counter level decisions almost always conspires to cause strange issues. Want to cite an example of role change? Carnifexes were close combat monsters. Thematically they are supposed to be, but in the current codex kitting up a Carnifex for close combat is nearly universally a poor expenditure of points unless your opponent obliges you and lets the waddling tard catch something. But, the army desperately needed a way to deal with vehicles. Zoanthropes had too many opportunities to fail to be useful, Hive Tyrant venom cannons were glorified autocannons that couldn't pen, and a flying tyrant could only catch one tank at a time, so the Carnifex capable of carrying 2 S10 and 1 S8 shot became a gun platform. A role was changed, even though most of the biomorphs were CC options.

Consider Space Marine Vanguards. The ability to deepstrike and assault with a bunch of power weapon/fist/relic blade attacks outta nowhere should be incredible, but because the models are so expensive, have a high chance to not actually get to "Heroic Intervention", and aren't any harder to kill than your standard marine, their is no incentive to take them even though they have a well stated purpose. Sisters Repentia? Sure, 20 point models with W1, T3 and a poor armor save who will always go last are totally going to be popular right? No, there was no incentive to take them despite being a unit of freaking eviscerator armed psycho nuns because they were a liablity. This sort of thing happens with every book that comes out, there doesn't have to be an incentive to take a unit for it to exist. If we go and decide that a unit was intended to work a certain way even if the rules say they don't actually do this, it's just as likely that the designers had the opposite interpretation, or they may have just been incompetent. Unfortunately we'll probably never know because again, the released "designers notes" usually never actually clarify much. Nor can we rely on FAQs that may or may not come out in a timely manner or even give us a concrete answer, like the Space Wolf faq that basically told people to do what they want on a particular issue.

I'll give them credit where it is due. The Skaven release was genuinely exciting even though I don't pay Fantasy. I like many of the new kits they have been releasing (except the Beasmen). GW has certainly created an interesting lore for their game systems. I appreciate the fact that this game works best when both players are out to have fun and can thusly resolve rules issues by going with whatever they like, but at the same time this does not excuse them from properly editing, testing, and thinking out their products. I don't want to hate them but I'm going to hold them responsible for their screwups.

A 5 man squad of thunderhammer terms will beat the dog crap out of a carnifex every single time even if it gets the charge. He may take them all out but he'll in all likelyhood die.


A trigon charging the same squad will probably live through it.

I dunno I am not great at math hammer. 3+ to hit with 7 attacks reroll all misses because of talons.

apwill4765 wrote:It's a stupid stupid stupid argument that originated with Runes of Warding. Hopefully they worded it better so we can avoid a YMDC firestorm. To say you can't roll doubles on 3 dice is just ludicrous, but the argument was--I still don't get it, but it apparently appeals to some people. Mostly people who are playing Eldar who use lots of psykers is my guess.

It says theres perils with any pairsof 1s or 6s and it is much better worded.

Oh, I'm sure there will be people that will attempt to argue that you can't get a pair if you roll three dice. Why not? Some complete morons couldn't handle 'doubles', so why shouldn't their illiteracy extend to a synonym?