Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

tneva82 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
The resin used has almost no value at all, the price of these has very little to do with production costs and all to do with charging what hey can for a ‘premium product’. The big base just makes you feel like you’re getting a bit more value for your £70.

The price is reflected in the 200+ hours it takes to sculpt and refine the model, prototype it and test cast, and then get a production run going.

The process isn't cheap, especially when it comes to an artist's labor.

Salary means hours spent don't impact production cost at all. The artist would have cost GW the same if he'd sat on his butt for a month.

It would be so easy to make the base an optional extra, but we're kidding ourselves if the division of price wouldn't still be something like 80/20 in favor of the model.

You think fw doesn't pass cost of salaries to customers like every company out there?

Yes, clearly that must be what I think. Or.... perhaps you haven't quite grasped the point I was making?

tneva82 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
The resin used has almost no value at all, the price of these has very little to do with production costs and all to do with charging what hey can for a ‘premium product’. The big base just makes you feel like you’re getting a bit more value for your £70.

The price is reflected in the 200+ hours it takes to sculpt and refine the model, prototype it and test cast, and then get a production run going.

The process isn't cheap, especially when it comes to an artist's labor.

Salary means hours spent don't impact production cost at all. The artist would have cost GW the same if he'd sat on his butt for a month.

It would be so easy to make the base an optional extra, but we're kidding ourselves if the division of price wouldn't still be something like 80/20 in favor of the model.

You think fw doesn't pass cost of salaries to customers like every company out there?

Maybe that's true in the most simplistic of businesses but raising prices is generally the last thing you want to do. MTG booster packs, for example, haven't had a meaningful price increase in almost 20 years. Obviously that game has grown quite a bit since 1993 and has hired more people and/or raised salaries.

 Kirasu wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
The resin used has almost no value at all, the price of these has very little to do with production costs and all to do with charging what hey can for a ‘premium product’. The big base just makes you feel like you’re getting a bit more value for your £70.

The price is reflected in the 200+ hours it takes to sculpt and refine the model, prototype it and test cast, and then get a production run going.

The process isn't cheap, especially when it comes to an artist's labor.

Salary means hours spent don't impact production cost at all. The artist would have cost GW the same if he'd sat on his butt for a month.

It would be so easy to make the base an optional extra, but we're kidding ourselves if the division of price wouldn't still be something like 80/20 in favor of the model.

You think fw doesn't pass cost of salaries to customers like every company out there?

Maybe that's true in the most simplistic of businesses but raising prices is generally the last thing you want to do. MTG booster packs, for example, haven't had a meaningful price increase in almost 20 years. Obviously that game has grown quite a bit since 1993 and has hired more people and/or raised salaries.

Yes but magic cards and miniatures are totally different markets.

Wizards of the Coast expects to sell a lot of magic card packs to every single current magic player. Even if via proxy (buying from card sites as opposed to direct packs). Heck some competitive formats rely on buying cards to take part (booster draft). So Magic knows that they are going to sell high volume in cards.
Furthermore card cycling puts pressure on purchasing and recycles the product fast; so there's continued market pressure to buy now and take part in the competitions and games before it all changes.

Meanwhile Forgeworld by its nature sells to a smaller market and the product itself is not going to be expected to sell more than once to each person willing to buy in that market. So the number of sales is drastically lower. Furthermore there's far less market pressure to buy it now. Many of their customers will drip feed in over many years.

They are two totally different product types and markets. The Forgeworld model has to sell at a higher profit per sale because its never ever going to get the vast volume of sales that the Magic cards are. Also I think Magic cards have gone up by around £1 or so over the last 5-10 years (even though many places might discout the cost a bit). That is a pretty big price rise when you consider that packs a few years back were £2.50 each. A £1 more and that's nearly 50% more in cost. Sure the base cost is low so the price rise isn't as sorely felt, but its still a significant rise on a product that relies upon high volume of sales.

 Overread wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
The resin used has almost no value at all, the price of these has very little to do with production costs and all to do with charging what hey can for a ‘premium product’. The big base just makes you feel like you’re getting a bit more value for your £70.

The price is reflected in the 200+ hours it takes to sculpt and refine the model, prototype it and test cast, and then get a production run going.

The process isn't cheap, especially when it comes to an artist's labor.

Salary means hours spent don't impact production cost at all. The artist would have cost GW the same if he'd sat on his butt for a month.

It would be so easy to make the base an optional extra, but we're kidding ourselves if the division of price wouldn't still be something like 80/20 in favor of the model.

You think fw doesn't pass cost of salaries to customers like every company out there?

Maybe that's true in the most simplistic of businesses but raising prices is generally the last thing you want to do. MTG booster packs, for example, haven't had a meaningful price increase in almost 20 years. Obviously that game has grown quite a bit since 1993 and has hired more people and/or raised salaries.

Yes but magic cards and miniatures are totally different markets.

Wizards of the Coast expects to sell a lot of magic card packs to every single current magic player. Even if via proxy (buying from card sites as opposed to direct packs). Heck some competitive formats rely on buying cards to take part (booster draft). So Magic knows that they are going to sell high volume in cards.
Furthermore card cycling puts pressure on purchasing and recycles the product fast; so there's continued market pressure to buy now and take part in the competitions and games before it all changes.

Meanwhile Forgeworld by its nature sells to a smaller market and the product itself is not going to be expected to sell more than once to each person willing to buy in that market. So the number of sales is drastically lower. Furthermore there's far less market pressure to buy it now. Many of their customers will drip feed in over many years.

They are two totally different product types and markets. The Forgeworld model has to sell at a higher profit per sale because its never ever going to get the vast volume of sales that the Magic cards are. Also I think Magic cards have gone up by around £1 or so over the last 5-10 years (even though many places might discout the cost a bit). That is a pretty big price rise when you consider that packs a few years back were £2.50 each. A £1 more and that's nearly 50% more in cost. Sure the base cost is low so the price rise isn't as sorely felt, but its still a significant rise on a product that relies upon high volume of sales.

Haud on though, the argument being made was about passing costs on to customers, now you're shifting things toward an argument based on volume of sales, the two are related but not the same thing.

And in the latter case, such arguments only have any weight so long as you consider FW in total isolation. There are companies out there producing painter or collector models with an even smaller niche market still, no wargame framework to help drive sales, with varying costs(non-salaried/commission based staff, material bought at market rates rather than wholesale in bulk, shipping dealt with as a small business not a major corporate account), selling products with the same or higher "bulk" of resin in them than most non-superheavy FW products, yet they still don't expect people to fork over 80 quid a go.

FW's costs are predictable and lower than any other hobby resin manufacturer I can think of, yet they charge amongst the highest prices. Volume cannot account for that.

I would actually think some of FW's costs would be greater. Granted they might be able to lower production costs by size; but their team and company size as well as the factory and production in the UK will all serve to increase their costs. A larger factory in the UK combined with salaries for staff in that factory are going to be significant costs.

Many small resin companies are often only small teams of one or two people, often using factories in china or other countries to perform production for them. So they have a chance to have significantly lower labour costs even if its not all in-house. Even if they produce in house their smaller scale might well mean that they can keep those costs low. Also it wouldn't shock me if a few were part-time businesses run alongside regular work - therefore they are not getting their full income from the model sales.





Also its unlikely to be one single reason for FW prices; but instead a combination of factors which would include all the above and more as well as a portion of "well the customers pay this much so we can charge this much".

Also last I checked the Privateer Press resin models are pretty much comparable for price as many FW optoins. Note that is UK prices (which for PP went up semi recently).

 Overread wrote:
I would actually think some of FW's costs would be greater. Granted they might be able to lower production costs by size; but their team and company size as well as the factory and production in the UK will all serve to increase their costs. A larger factory in the UK combined with salaries for staff in that factory are going to be significant costs.

Many small resin companies are often only small teams of one or two people, often using factories in china or other countries to perform production for them. So they have a chance to have significantly lower labour costs even if its not all in-house. Even if they produce in house their smaller scale might well mean that they can keep those costs low. Also it wouldn't shock me if a few were part-time businesses run alongside regular work - therefore they are not getting their full income from the model sales.





Also its unlikely to be one single reason for FW prices; but instead a combination of factors which would include all the above and more as well as a portion of "well the customers pay this much so we can charge this much".

Also last I checked the Privateer Press resin models are pretty much comparable for price as many FW optoins. Note that is UK prices (which for PP went up semi recently).

You keep shifting the argument around. We're talking about passing on costs for individual projects through the related individual products, how big the companies are goes *against* your point.

FW can concept, design, print, mold, and produce any given resin model for less than *any* small resin producer could do the same, Chinese manufacture or otherwise. One of the main reasons they can do that is their size, not just them specifically but the fact they're part of GW. They have salaried in-house concept artists, passing work to salaried in-house sculptors, they own their own high quality printing equipment, used by a salaried(or, at least, waged) in-house casting team, who use materials bought in bulk at wholesale rates. Any given small-scale producer will have to do at least some of those things entirely themselves, and contract the rest out to freelancers and production companies who charge variable rates at any given time based on wider market conditions that might have nothing to do with wargaming(resin, silicone, and casting metals are hardly uniquely our domain) and who will be adding their own profit margin on to the price.

FW have a *huge* competitive advantage, and that's before you consider the wargame framework(also, where on earth did you get Privateer Press from "painter and collector models"?) that encourages multiple purchases of many products by any given customer, or FW's access to GW's pseudomarketing ensuring that most people who might want a FW model will at least know it exists. And yet you can browse around and find incredible quality sculpts in 75mm+ scale that use Primarch or Contemptor quantities of resin for 15-20 euros. That barely buys you a weapon pack from FW.

There is zero structural reason for FW to be charging so much, they do so for no reason other than they can.

Wait.....

Tons of comments on Forgeworld prices, but little to no actual news?!?!?!?!



Good talk, lets get back to News and Rumors

 Kirasu wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
The resin used has almost no value at all, the price of these has very little to do with production costs and all to do with charging what hey can for a ‘premium product’. The big base just makes you feel like you’re getting a bit more value for your £70.

The price is reflected in the 200+ hours it takes to sculpt and refine the model, prototype it and test cast, and then get a production run going.

The process isn't cheap, especially when it comes to an artist's labor.

Salary means hours spent don't impact production cost at all. The artist would have cost GW the same if he'd sat on his butt for a month.

It would be so easy to make the base an optional extra, but we're kidding ourselves if the division of price wouldn't still be something like 80/20 in favor of the model.

You think fw doesn't pass cost of salaries to customers like every company out there?

Maybe that's true in the most simplistic of businesses but raising prices is generally the last thing you want to do. MTG booster packs, for example, haven't had a meaningful price increase in almost 20 years. Obviously that game has grown quite a bit since 1993 and has hired more people and/or raised salaries.

And remind me which sells more. Subset of miniatures or mtg that outsells all miniatures? In the time since 1993 has even gw increased custom base even close to same ratio as mtg or not? Whatabout fw?


Like it or not gw vanishes and most game stores wouldn#t care too much. Mtg vanish and game stores would go bust fast

This isn't the thread for this line of discussion.

 BrookM wrote:
This isn't the thread for this line of discussion.

It really isn't.

Back to actual FW News and Rumors.

Guys, I'm tearing up right now. Look what arrived in the mail yesterday!

These are absolutely stunning! Dreams do come true, folks!

...now what will I complain about?!

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Guys, I'm tearing up right now. Look what arrived in the mail yesterday!

These are absolutely stunning! Dreams do come true, folks!

...now what will I complain about?!

As for complaining, well, there's always Fires...

 zedmeister wrote:

As for complaining, well, there's always Fires...

OH YEAH! Thanks, that is right.

WHERE IS FIRES?!

I want Fires of Cyraxus.

My Ordinatus Minoris Sagittar is gathering dust, and not blasting filthy Tau in a show of frankly obscene firepower!

Boy, I dunno. When you add up the FW studio's workload and priorities with the lack of buzz from a group that is allowed to and likes to talk about upcoming projects...I don't think it bodes well at all for Fires. Maybe they'll surprise, though.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Guys, I'm tearing up right now. Look what arrived in the mail yesterday!

These are absolutely stunning! Dreams do come true, folks!

Only one???

T

Re: Fires:
Could just start mailing FW some melted/burnt Space Marine parts. To, y’know, send a message about where their priorities should be.

timd wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Guys, I'm tearing up right now. Look what arrived in the mail yesterday!

These are absolutely stunning! Dreams do come true, folks!

Only one???

T

Two! I just opened that one to check it, because my idiot mailperson put it on my wet doormat and I was concerned they were ruined, because that would have just been too good. Thankfully, they appear to be fine!

 Verviedi wrote:
Re: Fires:
Could just start mailing FW some melted/burnt Space Marine parts. To, y’know, send a message about where their priorities should be.

What, make more marines to replace the ones you destroyed?

Still no news on anything huh?

Just waiting on the boarding marines I ordered myself. Aaaaaany day now.

Space Wolves stuff:


https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-NL/Space-Wolves-Legion-Varagyr-Wolf-Guard-terminator-Squad-2018


https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-NL/Space-Wolves-Legion-Grey-Slayers-Close-Combat-Squad-20108


https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-NL/Space-Wolves-Legion-Grey-Slayers-Ranged-Attack-Squad-2018

They still have the odd bolt pistols.

Could be outdated picture.

And ARGH! Couldn't they have at least shuffled model position when they cloned 5 picture of 5 guys to make picture of 10 guys. That jumps into eyes too much.

Doesn't look like it.

I've said it before but I'll say it again: Invert bolters, sausage fur, etc, ugh. Not the finest release from Forgeworld...

This guy next week:



I wonder if a regular Custodes helmet from the plastic kits would fit in there instead, though the plume may get in the way of the halo construct on the back.

 BrookM wrote:
This guy next week:



I wonder if a regular Custodes helmet from the plastic kits would fit in there instead, though the plume may get in the way of the halo construct on the back.

honestly vs what you can build from the Warden kit... that captains kinda ugly.

Ok, so it seems that we have the transfers and Dorn.

That means the Necro weapon sprues are the thing we'll ask about every week.

No man, it's still Fires of Cy-something.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Guys, I'm tearing up right now. Look what arrived in the mail yesterday!

These are absolutely stunning! Dreams do come true, folks!

...now what will I complain about?!

Mine arrived as well. Wohoo! My Cerastus Knight Castigator was waiting 3 years for this. I'll upload a picture as soon as they are applied.

BrianDavion wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
This guy next week:



I wonder if a regular Custodes helmet from the plastic kits would fit in there instead, though the plume may get in the way of the halo construct on the back.

honestly vs what you can build from the Warden kit... that captains kinda ugly.

The proportions look a little odd to me - but the head I find distracting. On closer inspection, it's the Aquila immediately behind his bonce. Makes it look like he's wearing his hair in tiny bunches.