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Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench




Bath

i'm going to assume that they will make the gauge available for separate purchase, especially if its something its they have made central to the gameplay like they have. People are not going to shell out for the starter set JUST to get the gauge, they'll buy the separate rulebook, and if they can't get the gauge, then they'll either turn to 3 party makers for them (i mean, any CAD student could knock one together in half an hour, it would be trivial to knock one up), or use a school 6" ruler with the shapes drawn on.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1000pts
Western Host 1000 pts
 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

I agree, but that's kinda the point.
You need to go out of your way to specifically buy a geometry combat gauge.
Why? So that rules read very poorly and disjointed?
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench




Bath

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Man these shapes instead of distances are extremely hard to read. I'm with Kiro here, I have to pause when reading when I come to the shape then remember it's referring to a distance.

I also really enjoy BSF which uses shapes to represent the die you are using, so reading these is extra painful.

The Secondaries look interesting, but I'm not a big fan of what they described with bringing your Kill Team. Sounds a lot like "Well if you're bringing that, then I'm bringing this" which in my opinion puts a speedbump on just starting and playing the game.


just backtracking a little here, but it sounds more like a case of "i have a death guard kill team with a 3 man plague marine fireteam, and a 7 man plaguebearer fireteam. i can bring one of those to this match", and his opponent is left to think about weather he wants to build against a few strong models, a larger number of weaker models (ie bet that one or the other will be deployed, but at a risk of guessing wrong), or go TAC style and accept less ability against whichever he chooses but not getting caught out by an unexpected selection.

So, basic list building meta-gaming, the same as everyone does anyway in 40K before most games.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1000pts
Western Host 1000 pts
 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

New article, this time campaigns!
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/30/set-up-a-base-of-operations-and-choose-your-own-secret-missions-in-kill-teams-new-spec-ops-narrative-campaigns/

It's literally just 40k Crusade
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran



South East London

I quite like the campaign system though, and being able to switch between campaign and matched play games but still collect (but not use in matched play) campaign effects is quite cool.

"Dig in and wait for Winter" 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




The problem with the measuring gauge is how fiddly it is to measure across non-flat surfaces. With all the terrain littering the board, using something as inflexible as a movement gauge is annoying. That's on top of the stupid system of unintuitive symbols they've used.

I think games like Legion and X-Wing get away with it more because they are at least intuitive. In the case of X-Wing it's kind of obvious what they add to the game too, with control of the angle of the ships, while also playing into one of the skills needed to play - judging movement paths. Where it's less successful is with a game like SW Armada where the movement tool is pretty long and fiddly and there's often a lot of models in the way. That still seems more intuitive than the KT approach though.
   
Made in gb
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard







I also like the idea that narrative mode is actually a story for yourself, and that you can share it with others who are interested, but aren't stymied if others just want to play pick up games.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
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Made in us
Squishy Oil Squig



Ak

I’ve been following this thread from the beginning and I have to say I’m excited for this to new rule set. I really hope it all comes together as a fun and balanced game. I live a couple hours from any game store and me and all my gaming buddies are busy with families and work so we very rarely can all get together and play a game of 40k ( takes too long, too expensive, etc). If this KT2 is all their hyping it to be we might finally be able to do some regular gaming again.
   
Made in fi
Dakka Veteran





 Flinty wrote:
I also like the idea that narrative mode is actually a story for yourself, and that you can share it with others who are interested, but aren't stymied if others just want to play pick up games.


From what I have understood, this is how narrative campaigns work in Warcry, 40k and Age of Sigmar nowadays. And I agree that it's an excellent approach.

That place is the harsh dark future far left with only war left. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Slipspace wrote:
The problem with the measuring gauge is how fiddly it is to measure across non-flat surfaces. With all the terrain littering the board, using something as inflexible as a movement gauge is annoying. That's on top of the stupid system of unintuitive symbols they've used.

I think games like Legion and X-Wing get away with it more because they are at least intuitive. In the case of X-Wing it's kind of obvious what they add to the game too, with control of the angle of the ships, while also playing into one of the skills needed to play - judging movement paths. Where it's less successful is with a game like SW Armada where the movement tool is pretty long and fiddly and there's often a lot of models in the way. That still seems more intuitive than the KT approach though.


In X-Wing the gauges are intuitive and make sense for the type of game it is. There's momentum involved and no terrain to physically go up and over.

If GW had simply made the shapes match number of sides with distance, it would have been SOOOOO much better. I really just honestly cannot believe NO ONE involved with this game mentioned "hey guys and gals, shouldnt we make the distances correlate with the # of sides on the shapes? And just make circle either the biggest or smallest?" They didn't even have to make the # sides = inches, just more sides = longer distance would have been simple enough.

I'm sure it will be easier when I paint the shapes to match the colors, but man alive such a basic intuitive concept and they didn't do it.
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

Quasistellar wrote:
I really just honestly cannot believe NO ONE involved with this game mentioned "hey guys and gals, shouldnt we make the distances correlate with the # of sides on the shapes? And just make circle either the biggest or smallest?".

now you assume that they ever played their own game

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

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Base building, weapon upgrades, operatives needing rest to recover? Sounds like KT2 narrative is borrowing some pages from Xcom games.. I don't mind at all, always loved Xcom
   
Made in si
Ravenous Beast Form







 tauist wrote:
Base building, weapon upgrades, operatives needing rest to recover? Sounds like KT2 narrative is borrowing some pages from Xcom games.. I don't mind at all, always loved Xcom


I mean, KT1 already snagged Xcom's skill trees.

Fun fact, Xcom creators cited Necromunda as an inspiration.

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 lord_blackfang wrote:
 tauist wrote:
Base building, weapon upgrades, operatives needing rest to recover? Sounds like KT2 narrative is borrowing some pages from Xcom games.. I don't mind at all, always loved Xcom


I mean, KT1 already snagged Xcom's skill trees.

Fun fact, Xcom creators cited Necromunda as an inspiration.


Do you have any info on that ? I curious now. I assume it’s inspired by the white dwarf rules, but I couldn’t find any info on it.
   
Made in si
Ravenous Beast Form







Apple fox wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
 tauist wrote:
Base building, weapon upgrades, operatives needing rest to recover? Sounds like KT2 narrative is borrowing some pages from Xcom games.. I don't mind at all, always loved Xcom


I mean, KT1 already snagged Xcom's skill trees.

Fun fact, Xcom creators cited Necromunda as an inspiration.


Do you have any info on that ? I curious now. I assume it’s inspired by the white dwarf rules, but I couldn’t find any info on it.


https://youtu.be/6AmaMn3xb7U?t=3251

From 54:11

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Gangs of Nu Ork - Necromunda / Gorkamorka expansion supporting all faction. Feedback thread here
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 lord_blackfang wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
 tauist wrote:
Base building, weapon upgrades, operatives needing rest to recover? Sounds like KT2 narrative is borrowing some pages from Xcom games.. I don't mind at all, always loved Xcom


I mean, KT1 already snagged Xcom's skill trees.

Fun fact, Xcom creators cited Necromunda as an inspiration.


Do you have any info on that ? I curious now. I assume it’s inspired by the white dwarf rules, but I couldn’t find any info on it.


https://youtu.be/6AmaMn3xb7U?t=3251

From 54:11


Thanks!
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

I dunno how dramatic base building actually is.

The team sheet they showed only had one small box for "base", that was presented in the same way as "quirks". IE; just a fluff piece for your team.

It could be Warcom misunderstanding and/or making a mountain out of a molehill.

As for shapes, I wonder if the team didn't specifically choose shapes that were a poor fit, to try and encourage people using their shapes instead of normal distances. That is the whole point of shapes afterall. You're not supposed to be using inches.

Edit: looking at the sheet again, they're probably referring to "strategic assets" which is a large box and lists a medbay.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/30 16:22:37


 
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench




Bath

Quasistellar wrote:


I'm sure it will be easier when I paint the shapes to match the colors, but man alive such a basic intuitive concept and they didn't do it.



indeed, the more i think about it, its just such a obvious concept that I can only assume MUST have thought of it, but they couldn't use it for some reason. Its quite possible that the most obvious set of shapes for basic ranges is, in fact, locked behind some sort of copyright protection. maybe some other wargaming company got their first, and that forced GW to use effectively "random" shapes because that progression isn't copyrighted.

kirotheavenger wrote:
I dunno how dramatic base building actually is.

The team sheet they showed only had one small box for "base", that was presented in the same way as "quirks". IE; just a fluff piece for your team.


i think the "type" of base is just fluff, but most of the mechanical advantages tied to the base are under the "stash" and "strategic assets" sections. things like the the rosary, the med bay, etc, those the the base building benefits. im guessing stash items will give specific in game bonuses to character that are assigned these items (maybe the trench shovel will improve the users cover save?), while the strategic assets will give between game bonuses (the med bay will obviously assist with healing wounds in some form)

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1000pts
Western Host 1000 pts
 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran





Apple fox wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
 tauist wrote:
Base building, weapon upgrades, operatives needing rest to recover? Sounds like KT2 narrative is borrowing some pages from Xcom games.. I don't mind at all, always loved Xcom


I mean, KT1 already snagged Xcom's skill trees.

Fun fact, Xcom creators cited Necromunda as an inspiration.


Do you have any info on that ? I curious now. I assume it’s inspired by the white dwarf rules, but I couldn’t find any info on it.


https://youtu.be/6AmaMn3xb7U?t=3251

From 54:11


Thanks!

Also in this interview: https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/firaxis-jake-solomon-post-mortems-xcom-part-two
   
Made in us
Boosting Black Templar Biker






xerxeskingofking wrote:
just backtracking a little here, but it sounds more like a case of "i have a death guard kill team with a 3 man plague marine fireteam, and a 7 man plaguebearer fireteam. i can bring one of those to this match", and his opponent is left to think about weather he wants to build against a few strong models, a larger number of weaker models (ie bet that one or the other will be deployed, but at a risk of guessing wrong), or go TAC style and accept less ability against whichever he chooses but not getting caught out by an unexpected selection.

So, basic list building meta-gaming, the same as everyone does anyway in 40K before most games.


So I reread the paragraph in question and I believe you're right. My initial read was that you're going to look at your 20 man list and decide what specialist and loadout (plasma,melta,flamer) and decide while your opponent also decides. Some kind of annoying alternate activation where its: "Okay I bring this guy" "Oh, well in that case, I'll bring a melta" "Okay the next guy on my kill team is this" "Okay the next guy I'm bringing is this."

There's nothing wrong with that per say but it just adds a speed bump to actually playing the game, something I would not be a fan of occuring. I think you read it correctly though so that will dispel that concern for me.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Altruizine wrote:
Spoiler:
Apple fox wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
 tauist wrote:
Base building, weapon upgrades, operatives needing rest to recover? Sounds like KT2 narrative is borrowing some pages from Xcom games.. I don't mind at all, always loved Xcom


I mean, KT1 already snagged Xcom's skill trees.

Fun fact, Xcom creators cited Necromunda as an inspiration.


Do you have any info on that ? I curious now. I assume it’s inspired by the white dwarf rules, but I couldn’t find any info on it.


https://youtu.be/6AmaMn3xb7U?t=3251

From 54:11


Thanks!

Also in this interview: https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/firaxis-jake-solomon-post-mortems-xcom-part-two


Watched and read, always cool to see. Was for the reboot XCOM, was thinking original XCOM since my brain goes there when thinking about it lol.

Thanks for that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/31 00:39:45


 
   
Made in us
Battle-tested Knight Castellan Pilot




Oakland, CA

Campaign mode sounds very interesting to me.I love telling a story with my games and miniatures.

Hope is got some meat.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





There's a lot of moaning about the shapes, but honestly, once people get the game in hand and start playing it, your own brain is going to figure half this stuff out for you, and after a couple games you'll have it figured out. Oh no, a whole neuron or two might have to connect. Or worse, you'll come up with your own slang mid-game for describing and translating distances, and, again, if you don't want the gauge, you can just keep using a tape measure.

I'm not sure I'm sold on the narrative play. My ideal situation for narrative is something that me and my buddies play together, but it sounds like they're turning it into a solo experience. It's like if everyone in a DnD campaign went off on their own adventures instead of taking on the main storyline. I just worry that filling out these sheets will be a sort of lonely experience.

But, that said, I'm an experienced DM and game-runner, so it won't be an issue to put together some plot or bring my friends along to all do the narrative stuff together. It's kind of neat that people can do it at their own pace, as long as Bob can still have fun at level 2 while Andrew is already at level 10.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

I really want some awesome themed narrative scenarios, and/or the tools to build them.
I've played Crusade and it honestly doesn't feel that logical to me. The overarching campaign goals just translate into arbitrary hoops to jump through in-game that don't really make much sense or correlate with what you're supposed to be doing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 The Red Hobbit wrote:
xerxeskingofking wrote:
just backtracking a little here, but it sounds more like a case of "i have a death guard kill team with a 3 man plague marine fireteam, and a 7 man plaguebearer fireteam. i can bring one of those to this match", and his opponent is left to think about weather he wants to build against a few strong models, a larger number of weaker models (ie bet that one or the other will be deployed, but at a risk of guessing wrong), or go TAC style and accept less ability against whichever he chooses but not getting caught out by an unexpected selection.

So, basic list building meta-gaming, the same as everyone does anyway in 40K before most games.


So I reread the paragraph in question and I believe you're right. My initial read was that you're going to look at your 20 man list and decide what specialist and loadout (plasma,melta,flamer) and decide while your opponent also decides. Some kind of annoying alternate activation where its: "Okay I bring this guy" "Oh, well in that case, I'll bring a melta" "Okay the next guy on my kill team is this" "Okay the next guy I'm bringing is this."

There's nothing wrong with that per say but it just adds a speed bump to actually playing the game, something I would not be a fan of occuring. I think you read it correctly though so that will dispel that concern for me.


I disagree, to me it sounds like you build a roster of 20 individual models. Then, after you know what mission it is and what army your opponent is, you're supposed to go away and assemble your fireteams in secret. Current Killteam has this exact same mechanic. There's no back and forth selecting operatives though.
We know people like Guard or Deathguard can bring two Fireteams to the same game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/31 06:32:53


 
   
Made in gb
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard







drbored wrote:


I'm not sure I'm sold on the narrative play. My ideal situation for narrative is something that me and my buddies play together, but it sounds like they're turning it into a solo experience. It's like if everyone in a DnD campaign went off on their own adventures instead of taking on the main storyline. I just worry that filling out these sheets will be a sort of lonely experience.

But, that said, I'm an experienced DM and game-runner, so it won't be an issue to put together some plot or bring my friends along to all do the narrative stuff together. It's kind of neat that people can do it at their own pace, as long as Bob can still have fun at level 2 while Andrew is already at level 10.


I think your second paragraph is the more likely result. Sounds liked the system will work perfectly well for someone essentially narrating a solo campaign, but a group can take each of their individual strands and weave them together if they want.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in fi
Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot






Indeed. I'd imagine the narrative rules bring a framework into play which can be built upon for really engaging narrative campaigns, but used as-is will just be some sort of crusade-y levelup scheme without any real depth.

The bit about the spec ops missions spanning across several individual games sounded interesting though

Anyone wanna bet we will be seeing the preorder announced tomorrow night?



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/31 09:54:53


 
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench




Bath

drbored wrote:

But, that said, I'm an experienced DM and game-runner, so it won't be an issue to put together some plot or bring my friends along to all do the narrative stuff together. It's kind of neat that people can do it at their own pace, as long as Bob can still have fun at level 2 while Andrew is already at level 10.



I hopethey will have some sort of narrative "underdog perks"/handicap system to counter-balance that, maybe some way to add your own extra perks for that battle, or a "get a free re-roll per turn per X perks difference" or something. thier are ways and means.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1000pts
Western Host 1000 pts
 
   
Made in us
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Columbus, Oh

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
xerxeskingofking wrote:
I mean, how hard is it, really, to go "within SQUARE(2") of enemy"?
It doesn't matter. This wheel is better than the old wheel. You'll see!


It's more round!

2+2=5 for sufficiently large values of 2.

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 kirotheavenger wrote:
I disagree, to me it sounds like you build a roster of 20 individual models. Then, after you know what mission it is and what army your opponent is, you're supposed to go away and assemble your fireteams in secret. Current Killteam has this exact same mechanic. There's no back and forth selecting operatives though. We know people like Guard or Deathguard can bring two Fireteams to the same game.

Yeah my only concern was an annoying back and forth of picking units which sounds like an unfun way to start every game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/31 15:46:48


 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

Spoiler:


I'm sure we were all wondering how "all offence, no defence" melee fighters would work.
It seems this is it. Although we don't know what either "Brutal" or "Reap" does, they sound like abilities that increase damage in some way. Combine that with A4/4+, which seems fairly mediocre, but high damage on those attacks.

So this repentia won't be landing that many successes (so not much to use for parrys), but any that are used for offense will hit like a truck.

I do wonder what the difference between "SR" and "!" is though, so far it seems like a distinction without a difference tbh.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/01 15:54:02


 
   
 
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