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I find grind them down works pretty well in smaller game. Especially if you run cult of time. On incursions we typically have less objectives to work with, so I prefer Psychic ritual compared to Mutate Landscape. If you want to Castle up, Banners is also nice since we are pretty hard to move at range. If you want to go the other way, engage can be pretty easy if you deepstrike your Rubric with flamer or your SOT. Wrath of Magnus can be great against the right comp but in smaller game I prefer to use Ahriman as a buffer.
Speaking of ... would you happen to have a pick of your metal Ahriman Never seen one !
In any case, have good games !
dreadlybrew wrote: Against nids you have to worry about their anti psyker stuff. they always have psykers to deny the witch, a -1 to cast negates yours. and if they have kronos they can make you only roll 1d6 and for the right CP/WL combo every failed check you make can be 2d3 mortal wounds.
find a way to engage the hive guard as fast as possible. they are your hard counter.
Yeah. Well, at least I don't need to worry about Kronos. It a hive fleet Leviathan list with all the new Octarious goodness. Both are good and have their risks. I can use cabal points to force through mutate landscape. But its a 5 objective map, so might be challenging to get that 4th or 5th objective. But 9 points should be doable and that's pretty good too. (I will certainly try and aim for 12 or 15 points if I can). The downside is that this drains a lot of my cabal points.
But wrath of magnus is risky in its own way too. He can use big monsters to screen in front (and he has smites too). And with two hive guard units shooting, I don't know how much of an army I will have left by turn 5. And turn 1 he can hide out of range + out of line of sight.
He will probably keep his hiveguard well back and surround them with lots of nasties. Getting to his hiveguard is going to be a challenge. I may have to tank the shots for the first few turns at least. The good thing is all of my rubrics are 5 man, so that Phalanx strategem to -1 damage just cost 1 cp. And my hellbrutes are default -1 damage anyway. And everything is 5++.
Correct. But the trick is that the hive guard are d3, so you don't really save a whole lot there. You don't get cover and your all is dust doesn't turn on against them.
Depending on your cult, I would forward deploy a unit and try to charge the hobe guard if possible. Cult of magic is also great against nids with a giant blob.
GW just released a "Balance Slate" (available at https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/WVNIlSN1XFw6Zfwo.pdf). It looks like it's meant to buff some armies (like CSM and Necrons) and rein in AdMech and Drukhari by adjusting points (and Ork buggy lists also). Aside from the incidental benefits of weaker AdMech, Orks, and Drukhari, it doesn't look like there's anything in here directly affecting TSons. World Eater Berzerkers are going to love the "corrected" DttFE rule, though (as if they needed to be even more of a blender on the table).
Brian888 wrote: GW just released a "Balance Slate" (available at https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/WVNIlSN1XFw6Zfwo.pdf). It looks like it's meant to buff some armies (like CSM and Necrons) and rein in AdMech and Drukhari by adjusting points (and Ork buggy lists also). Aside from the incidental benefits of weaker AdMech, Orks, and Drukhari, it doesn't look like there's anything in here directly affecting TSons. World Eater Berzerkers are going to love the "corrected" DttFE rule, though (as if they needed to be even more of a blender on the table).
CSM need all the help it can get. Though I suspect in this case, it was only a change to DttFE because that rule was probably going away in the new CSM codex. And stuff like points and stats they didn't bother changing because it was all going to be changed when the 9th ed CSM codex drops anyway.
I find grind them down works pretty well in smaller game. Especially if you run cult of time. On incursions we typically have less objectives to work with, so I prefer Psychic ritual compared to Mutate Landscape. If you want to Castle up, Banners is also nice since we are pretty hard to move at range. If you want to go the other way, engage can be pretty easy if you deepstrike your Rubric with flamer or your SOT. Wrath of Magnus can be great against the right comp but in smaller game I prefer to use Ahriman as a buffer.
Speaking of ... would you happen to have a pick of your metal Ahriman Never seen one !
In any case, have good games !
I do like Cult of Time quite a bit so Grind them Down would be a good choice, Wrath of Magnus is also quite fun. I generally use Ahriman as a character sniper with Tzeentch Firestorm & Gaze of Hate. I've got my models packed up currently but he was in the last game I played, although it's not a good angle, he's on the right side for both photos leading some Rubrics.
Eldenfirefly wrote:
But wrath of magnus is risky in its own way too. He can use big monsters to screen in front (and he has smites too). And with two hive guard units shooting, I don't know how much of an army I will have left by turn 5. And turn 1 he can hide out of range + out of line of sight.
He will probably keep his hiveguard well back and surround them with lots of nasties. Getting to his hiveguard is going to be a challenge. I may have to tank the shots for the first few turns at least. The good thing is all of my rubrics are 5 man, so that Phalanx strategem to -1 damage just cost 1 cp. And my hellbrutes are default -1 damage anyway. And everything is 5++.
You got to force the tyranid player to focus on the terminators. Use the crystal to teleport the terminators forward(at a flank) and make sure the get -1 to hit (glamour of tzeentch) and 1-damage. The other units move forward at the other side of the battle field. Make sure the terminators can only be charged by either the swarmlord or the genestealers but not both. Full Hive gaurd shooting kills about 3 terminators and assault could kill another two. Next turn revive two terminator models and give them +1 to wound in close combat. Weaken the tyranid unit with some mortal wounds. and finish them off.
The key is to get a lot of mission points as fast as possible so that it doesn't matter if you start losing a lot of models because you win the mission anyway.
dreadlybrew wrote:Correct. But the trick is that the hive guard are d3, so you don't really save a whole lot there. You don't get cover and your all is dust doesn't turn on against them.
Depending on your cult, I would forward deploy a unit and try to charge the hobe guard if possible. Cult of magic is also great against nids with a giant blob.
If the player is smart you will never reach the hive gaurd. So don't bother I would say.
whembly wrote: What are your thoughts on the Terrax-Termites?
A 14W T8 3+ 5++ distraction carnifex seems pretty spicy!
What loadouts do you prefer? I think I'm digging the 2x heavy flamers as the range aligns with the 5 melta shots.
If you can fit a pair of them, seems like a great way to get Engage and maybe an auto delivery to get your rubrics for the Burn secondary.
Wait, Forge World gets 5++ ? Did they errata them to have the Arcana Astartes keyword ?
Yes, even the FW daemon engines get Arcana Astartes/Bubonic Astartes.
Many Chaos Space Marine units described in this section can be
fielded in Death Guard and Thousand Sons armies even though
you cannot normally replace the <Legion> keyword with either
Death Guard or Thousand Sons.
You can choose for any <Legion> Nurgle unit from the Imperial
Armour Compendium to be from the Death Guard Legion. If you do:
• Replace that unit’s <Legion> keyword with Death Guard.
• That unit gains the Bubonic Astartes keyword.
• That unit can be from one of the seven Plague Companies,
and so also gains the <Plague Company> keyword.
You can choose for any <Legion> Tzeentch unit from the
Imperial Armour Compendium to be from the Thousand Sons
Legion. If you do:
• Replace that unit’s <Legion> keyword with Thousand Sons.
• That unit gains the Arcana Astartes keyword.
• That unit can be from one of the nine Great Cults, and so also
gains the <Great Cult> keyword.
whembly wrote: What are your thoughts on the Terrax-Termites?
A 14W T8 3+ 5++ distraction carnifex seems pretty spicy!
What loadouts do you prefer? I think I'm digging the 2x heavy flamers as the range aligns with the 5 melta shots.
If you can fit a pair of them, seems like a great way to get Engage and maybe an auto delivery to get your rubrics for the Burn secondary.
Wait, Forge World gets 5++ ? Did they errata them to have the Arcana Astartes keyword ?
Yes, even the FW daemon engines get Arcana Astartes/Bubonic Astartes.
Many Chaos Space Marine units described in this section can be
fielded in Death Guard and Thousand Sons armies even though
you cannot normally replace the <Legion> keyword with either
Death Guard or Thousand Sons.
You can choose for any <Legion> Nurgle unit from the Imperial
Armour Compendium to be from the Death Guard Legion. If you do:
• Replace that unit’s <Legion> keyword with Death Guard.
• That unit gains the Bubonic Astartes keyword.
• That unit can be from one of the seven Plague Companies,
and so also gains the <Plague Company> keyword.
You can choose for any <Legion> Tzeentch unit from the
Imperial Armour Compendium to be from the Thousand Sons
Legion. If you do:
• Replace that unit’s <Legion> keyword with Thousand Sons.
• That unit gains the Arcana Astartes keyword.
• That unit can be from one of the nine Great Cults, and so also
gains the <Great Cult> keyword.
New 1kSons player here, and I was wondering if anyone thinks a Dreadclaw Assault Pod might be a good investment? Any unexpected or fun synergies, or tricks for competitive play?
I wanted to order something FW to round out my new collection, but don't want to just be on the VolCon bandwagon.
As just mentioned, the Dreadclaw and the Kharbydis both get the 5++.
Unlike Rhinos they are able to transport Tzaangors (and Scarab Occult).
The Warpflame Gargoyles strat works best on a melee capable vehicle with as big a base as possible. The Biomechanical Mutation strat might also see use on them.
Had a 3 round tournament this past weekend where I took a 10 man Scarab unit and also the "slippery Exalted" which was the special disc, Tutorum, Aetherstride, and the Prophecy trait. So he could basically zip 30", charge, consolidate away 6", and then flee 6" when charged.
In retrospect I paid too much to get the Prophecy trait. 10 man Scarabs take sooo much CP to keep alive and I was really too starved to do much else even with an Infernal Master doing the action for a second CP every turn.
The Exalted himself wasn't very useful. I wound up playing opponents that had no weak points ( Custodes ) or had plenty of no LOS shooting ( DG & Orks ) so there was no way to push him up to screw with their back field.
The tournament itself was very hobby oriented so they awarded more than 10 points based on if you had a display board, conversions, etc.
Game 1 - DG
He went first and pummeled some Rubrics and my Rhino, but not much else. On my turn I failed my +1S with the IF and because I was so CP starved I opted not to get it to pass automatically. This was a mistake as I jumped the Scarabs near a contemptor and PBC. I could have shot the PBC, but I knew without the +1S my odds were slim even with +1 to wound. I opted to take out the contemptor and barely did so. This proved to be really painful as those PBCs would continue to rain misery and having one crippled or dead would have helped tremendously ( especially since my Vindicators scored 12 wounds on a separate PBC ).
We only got to round 3 and timed out due to indecisiveness on both sides. I scored 47 and he scored 45, but....he had more hobby points so it become a loss of 49 to 50. Bummer. I had a strong position and could have pulled in a strong win had we went to turn 5, I think.
Game 2 - Custodes
I went first and basically pinned him in with terminators the first turn and tried to work the rest of my army up ( hammerhead deploy ). He was pretty ineffective on his turn, but I wasn't fast or lucky enough to down any Telemons before his turn 2 when the Venetari dropped and he went ape on my Scarabs nearly wiping them out. By this point I had covered the objectives really well, but it came to a nail biting win of 76 to 72. Secondaries against Custodes are really tough.
Came out with a win of 76 to 72.
Game 3 - Freebootas
Two Wazboms - lots of buggies - handful of bikers.
I went first and that's basically where I lost. I neglected to target the Wazboms with my Scarabs who jumped up. For some reason I was more concerned about Scraps and Warbikes, because I totally forgot that Tellyportas are D3+3...and get 2D6 of those...and hit on 3s when Freebootas activate...and my opponent rolls 10+ shots...twice...
I got smoked and lost 95 to 39.
Conclusions :
- Scrolls really let me down - it triggered only once in all three games ( bad luck, I guess ).
- No more gimmick Exalted.
- 10 Scarabs require tons of CP AND an Infernal Master so I need to make sure I start with at least 9 or 10 so I have room to do other things.
- I really want a strong melee character ( DP ), but with Ahriman, Exalted, and IM I am full so if I still do two patrols I need to go super light on relics/traits. Though with a double Patrol and Crystal I am already at 9 and if I want a decent DP I'll likely hit 7 again. Ugg.
- Shaman might be a good option to pick up the extra CP or do psychic secondaries against armies like Custodes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/23 00:17:42
whembly wrote: @Daedalus81: Thoughts on the vindies having 2 or 3 in list? (I have 3 and really think they have a place, but haven't played them yet)
I agree with Scarab... if you're not willing to commit to spending 6-9 CPs per game on that one unit, I wouldn't bring them.
I have three as well. My Vindicator slaps every game - if it isn't killing hard it takes tons of heat. I have a support Rubric squad that puts Guidance on it for extra reach. I run a Plasma/Cannon FF as well so switching him out for another Vindicator would be doable. The only reason I don't is that I want to maintain a distinct set of tools for various units that might pop up.
whembly wrote: @Daedalus81: Thoughts on the vindies having 2 or 3 in list? (I have 3 and really think they have a place, but haven't played them yet)
I agree with Scarab... if you're not willing to commit to spending 6-9 CPs per game on that one unit, I wouldn't bring them.
Vindies might be tough but the damage output is too random. I would rather have two volkite + missle launcher contemptors. Deploy each contemptor at a flank/objective and keep a unit rubric marines close by so that you can always use the ' inescapable forewarning' stratagem. They're also core and benefit from the reroll 1 aura.
@Daedalus81: when I read your battle report it feels like you played very aggressive.
I would push the terminators forward with temporal surge and cast glamour (-1 to hit), weaver (4++), and presage (+1 to hit), and shoot the crap out of anything within 24 inch. You use the unwavering phalanx (-1 damage) next turn and if the enemy kills a few terminators then you could use the crystal to deploy them close and revive 1 or 2 terminator models (cult of time and stratagem) and deploy them closer to the enemy unit you want to charge. Also if the enemy got an aggressive unit that wants to lock the terminator unit in close combat then you can use the crystal to pull them out of close combat..
But if you can afford to keep the terminators at 24 inch shooting range then I would do that. You can simply use the first two turns to soften up the enemies army and start controlling the field/objectives at turn 3.
Yea I always kept the Scarabs at 24" or as best as I could. I really don't like them in melee at all. I had +1S and +1 to hit on and occasionally 4++.
Typically I'm conservative the first turn or two, but my opponents had a lot of heavy firepower and I had to take advantage of bad movement where I could. It worked out fine in every game except against Orks, because of the Wazboms.
Daedalus81 wrote: Yea I always kept the Scarabs at 24" or as best as I could. I really don't like them in melee at all. I had +1S and +1 to hit on and occasionally 4++.
Typically I'm conservative the first turn or two, but my opponents had a lot of heavy firepower and I had to take advantage of bad movement where I could. It worked out fine in every game except against Orks, because of the Wazboms.
Yep, you need to identify the weapons that are going to hurt the most. Not a lot of weapons and/or attacks that can do 4+ damage with each attack but orks can really do a number on you when they're lucky. That's why it can be useful to bring a vindicator or contemptor dreadnought so that the enemy is going to divide his shots because he thinks the high damage shots are more useful against vehicles. Shooting a bunch of dark lances and only killing two terminators that revive the next turn feels very counterproductive.
If you really want to take that daemon prince than I would go for a battalion.
HQ: Ahriman on disc (doombolt, tzeentch's firestorm, temporal surge (or sum thing else)
HQ: Daemon Prince: (Weaver of fates, Glamour of tzeentch) WL: aetherstride + Relic: the cronus tutorum (WL: Immaterial echo)
HQ: Infernal master: (Presage) Relic: umbralific crystal
The daemon prince is not a bad pick because it is a nice counterattack unit.
Why do you pick 2x patrol anyway? You can also pick a free sorcerer with that exalted sorcerer in a batallion. Seems like a waste of CP and thousand sons really need the CP's.
Ordana wrote: The only reason to play 2 patrols is to pick 2 different cults. Which I feel is indeed a trap and waste of CP.
Yes, Cult of duplicity is great, but every game I play with it, I end up teleporting a unit mid field that could also reach this distance with temporal surge and/or regular movement. Most times it's not wise to go in so aggressive and I rather soft up the enemy ranks for two turns before I move in. Cult of duplicity can be great for flexible board control and move in a unit at a flank or in the backfield where the deep striking enemy units drop. But for now I go full cult of time terminators.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/26 08:35:56
Ordana wrote: The only reason to play 2 patrols is to pick 2 different cults. Which I feel is indeed a trap and waste of CP.
Yes, Cult of time is great, but every game I play with it, I end up teleporting a unit mid field that could also reach this distance with temporal surge and/or regular movement. Most times it's not wise to go in so aggressive and I rather soft up the enemy ranks for two turns before I move in. Cult of time can be great for flexible board control and move in a unit at a flank or in the backfield where the deep striking enemy units drop. But for now I go full cult of time terminators.
Err, you mean Cult of Duplicity. Time is the time flux resurrect cult. lol
Ordana wrote: The only reason to play 2 patrols is to pick 2 different cults. Which I feel is indeed a trap and waste of CP.
Yes, Cult of time is great, but every game I play with it, I end up teleporting a unit mid field that could also reach this distance with temporal surge and/or regular movement. Most times it's not wise to go in so aggressive and I rather soft up the enemy ranks for two turns before I move in. Cult of time can be great for flexible board control and move in a unit at a flank or in the backfield where the deep striking enemy units drop. But for now I go full cult of time terminators.
Err, you mean Cult of Duplicity. Time is the time flux resurrect cult. lol
Cult of duplicity feels better as it give option not only to move somewhere, it also allows to get out of combat or lost objectives while resurrecting one model in such situations might not help at all. Enemy have to consider possibility of one enemy unit jumping "somewhere" (and charge on new objective) while against cult of time "ok, maybe it will take longer to kill his termies".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/26 10:39:13
Xyxel wrote: Cult of duplicity feels better as it give option not only to move somewhere, it also allows to get out of combat or lost objectives while resurrecting one model in such situations might not help at all. Enemy has to consider possibility of one enemy unit jumping "somewhere" (and charge on new objective) while against cult of time "ok, maybe it will take longer to kill his termies".
A valid reason for using cult of duplicity but in practice I don't tend to jump the first turn because then they're just sitting ducks then or a great way for the enemy to move faster by charging this lonely unit. When I get in close combat with an enemy unit and I want to jump out then most times I'am just moving away or back and not that much closer towards an enemy objective. Staying 9 inch away from enemy units most times means i got to drop mid field or even close to my own deployment zone. Also dropping outside 9 inch is not an assault guaranty.
I rather push the terminators mid field with always the possibility to use the crystal to pull them out of close combat or towards the enemy lines. Reviving two terminators and placing them closer to the enemy unit after the drop really increase the charge range. If something assaults them fast I first check if I could remove it with witchfire powers so that the use temporal surge and can shoot afterwards. Terminators that can heal two models each turn are a headache and something that the enemy cannot ignore.
Daedalus81 wrote: Yea I always kept the Scarabs at 24" or as best as I could. I really don't like them in melee at all. I had +1S and +1 to hit on and occasionally 4++.
Typically I'm conservative the first turn or two, but my opponents had a lot of heavy firepower and I had to take advantage of bad movement where I could. It worked out fine in every game except against Orks, because of the Wazboms.
Yep, you need to identify the weapons that are going to hurt the most. Not a lot of weapons and/or attacks that can do 4+ damage with each attack but orks can really do a number on you when they're lucky. That's why it can be useful to bring a vindicator or contemptor dreadnought so that the enemy is going to divide his shots because he thinks the high damage shots are more useful against vehicles. Shooting a bunch of dark lances and only killing two terminators that revive the next turn feels very counterproductive.
If you really want to take that daemon prince than I would go for a battalion.
HQ: Ahriman on disc (doombolt, tzeentch's firestorm, temporal surge (or sum thing else)
HQ: Daemon Prince: (Weaver of fates, Glamour of tzeentch) WL: aetherstride + Relic: the cronus tutorum (WL: Immaterial echo)
HQ: Infernal master: (Presage) Relic: umbralific crystal
The daemon prince is not a bad pick because it is a nice counterattack unit.
Why do you pick 2x patrol anyway? You can also pick a free sorcerer with that exalted sorcerer in a batallion. Seems like a waste of CP and thousand sons really need the CP's.
Yea I am enamored with the idea of other cults, but 10 Scarabs obviously firmly anchors you to Time. Perhaps I'll explore something like Tzaangor Mutation or Tzaangor/Mutalith Duplicity lists in the future.
My struggle is that I love Ahriman, but I also love the Rehati, Scrolls, Echo Exalted. Though recently Scrolls have really failed me. I often take both Ahriman and the Exalted, which leaves me a conundrum to fit the DP. So either I forgo the DP or I drop Ahriman or Exalted to keep the IM in.
I don't feel like Echo is a great trait for the DP as it will proc so rarely. Also, in my experience going over the top with defensive buffs can be detrimental. Sometimes you just need to lay something flat with mortal wounds ASAP.
Automatically Appended Next Post: A thought experiment with Ahriman and the Rehati, Scrolls, Echo Exalted. Feel free to gut check my math if you have the time and tools.
SMITE
The standard odds to go super saiyan on Smite is 1 in 12. With the innate +1 this becomes 1 in 6.
Ahriman's reroll ( reroll everything 8 or less ) puts this at slightly over 10 in 36 ( 28% ). If you commit cabal to +1 on that cast your odds become 17 in 36 ( 47% ). This makes the average MW on Smite go from 1.9 to 2.6.
The Scrolls Exalted --
113 in 216 when using the +1 Cabal ( 52% ) meaning nearly 2.8 MW on average.
FIRESTORM
Ahriman --
10 in 36 ( 28% ) for an average of 2 MW
Exalted --
113 in 216 ( 52% ) for an average of 2.3 MW
ALL TOGETHER
Obviously the Exalted can't scroll both spells so here's the full outcome:
Ahriman
Smite @ 2.6, FS @ 2, Doombolt @ 2.9 = 7.5
Exalted
Smite @ 2.8, FS @ 1.7, Doombolt @ 2.5 = 7 and if Echo procs you get 1.4 additional from Gaze
CONCLUSION
8.4 vs 7.5
Ahriman is slightly worse for +30 points, but is more reliable and spares you 1 CP to swap a spell out on top of not using the free relic and trait to accomplish that goal.
That actually seems quite well balanced for choice, which is horribly frustrating.
BONUS ROUND
A Witch Warrior Sorcerer casting Smite WITHOUT +1 Cabal scores 2.6 and can kick off Doombolt ( 8 CP ) for another 2.5 plus another spell.
So for 255 points you get 13.5 MW or ~19 points per MW where Ahriman is 24 points per MW. Technically the extra Doombolt is possible with Ahriman, too, so the former would be 22 points per MW.
It all gets very complicated based on how you fill slots and if you expand into that fourth selection with the Exalted.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/29 20:17:43
Yea I am enamored with the idea of other cults, but 10 Scarabs obviously firmly anchors you to Time. Perhaps I'll explore something like Tzaangor Mutation or Tzaangor/Mutalith Duplicity lists in the future.
My struggle is that I love Ahriman, but I also love the Rehati, Scrolls, Echo Exalted. Though recently Scrolls have really failed me. I often take both Ahriman and the Exalted, which leaves me a conundrum to fit the DP. So either I forgo the DP or I drop Ahriman or Exalted to keep the IM in.
I don't feel like Echo is a great trait for the DP as it will proc so rarely. Also, in my experience going over the top with defensive buffs can be detrimental. Sometimes you just need to lay something flat with mortal wounds ASAP.
Immaterial echo really works for me because most times I need the 4++ and -1 to hit on my terminators. The 9+ on the psychic test is not unmodified so I could upgrade the psychic test with cabalistic ritual points to make sure the first psychic power (weaver) gets a high result / 9+ and after that I could use the immaterial echo effect to make sure the -1 to hit (the glamour) doesn't get denied. My buddy play's grey knights and they're doing well in tournaments so I got to anticipate this.
I could also do this with the time flux power if needed. The daemon prince could also switch the time flux for another power if I need more witchfire powers. But with ahriman already using doombolt and tzeentch firestorm I don't need another witchfire/mortal wound character. I can always switch a power with 'gaze of hate' and/or maybe 'baleful devolution' (very situational) and then I'am at the top of the amount of witchfire powers besides 'smite' . If I need to 'drop' an enemy unit I use the 'malefic scroll' stratagem and/or the cabalistic ritual mortal wound options (malevolent charge or psychic maelstrom).
I played a few games and I end up locked in close combat with the terminators on numerous occasions and really liked the daemon prince for helping out. I need to dominate the midfield and the opponent knows that it is sometimes better to lock the terminators in close combat to prevent them from shooting. a heroic intervening damon prince with flat 3D sword can really hurt.
My experience so far... with a few games using Immaterium echo warlord trait.. Most of the time it doesn't come up. And the few times it does, I likely forgot it was there and didn't trigger it. And the one time I remembered that my warlord had it, and triggered it... it didn't change anything... lol.
I don't know if its just because I am just so bad at being conscious of it.
Never seen one 
!
11527pts Total (7400pts painted)
4980pts Total (4980pts painted)
3730 Total (210pts painted) 
