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Made in ie
Been Around the Block




Hi all,

I had posted a while back and was going to put up a Black Legion list I was having some success with.

However, since then I've modified the list quite a bit and to be honest, it has been absolutely hammering my competition. I regularly was beating pre-nerf Votann with it and the hard counter Cadian list: super heavies and tank commanders with Relic of Lost Cadia and reroll hit and wound strat etc., so I thought I'd put it up now.

Supreme Command Detachment

Abaddon the Despoiler
Warlord - Eternal Vendetta, Paragon of Hatred, Merciless Overseer

Black Legion Battalion

Sorcerer in Terminator Armour - Force Sword, Combi-bolter, Chaos Familiar
Mark of Slaanesh
Relic: Veilbreaker Plate
Spells: Smite, Prescience, Warp Time, Delightful Agonies

Master of Possession - Bolt Pistol, Staff of Possession, Frag and Krak Grenades
Spells: Smite, Mutated Invigoration, Pact of Flesh

Dark Apostle - Bolt Pistol, Accursed Crozius, Frag and Krak Grenades
Mark of Slaanesh
Prayers: Dark Zealotry, Illusory Supplication, Blissful Devotion
2 x Dark Disciples

Chaos Contemptor - x2 Twin-volkite Culverins
Mark of Tzeentch

Chaos Terminators
x 7 Terminators
x 2 Power Fists
x 1 Combi-melta
x 5 Accursed Weapons
x 6 Combi-bolters
Champion - Chainfist, Combi-melta
Mark of Slaanesh

Rubric Marines
x 5 Rubric Marines
x 5 Warpflamers
Aspiring Sorcerer - Warpflame Pistol, Force Stave
Mark of Tzeentch
Spells: Smite, Infernal Gaze, Skeins of Fate

Legionnaires
x 9 Legionnaires
x 9 Bolt Pistols
x 1 Lascannon
x 1 Heavy Bolter
x 6 Boltguns
x 1 Balefire Tome
Aspiring Champion - Bolt Pistol, Boltgun
Mark of Tzeentch
Spells: Smite, Diabolic Strength, Skeins of Fate

Cultists Mob
x 9 Cultists
x 9 Cultist Firearms
Cultist Champion - Cultist Firearm

Cultists Mob
x 9 Cultists
x 9 Cultist Firearms
Cultist Champion - Cultist Firearm

Dreadclaw Drop Pod - Blade Struts, Thermal Jets

Venomcrawler - x 2 Excruciator Cannons, Soulflayer Tendrils and Claws

Havocs
x 4 Havocs
x 4 Lascannons
Havoc Champion - Boltgun

The list works like so: it can play defensively or offensively.

Offense

With the Sorcerer with the Plate I can get a Turn 1 charge on the Terminators fairly reliably using the MoP resurrection trick, so against a gunline I can drop the tough Terminator brick in the opponents midst very quickly. I use Merciless Overseer to make the Combi-meltas explode and have the Combi-bolters clear screens. Terminators charge screens, or exposed valuable targets. But in any case, they are a threat that needs dealing with Turn 1. I'm using Illusory Supplication, Diabolic Strength on the Champion, Prescience and Delightful Agonies to buff them.

Abaddon buffs the Legionnaires with reroll to hit and wound and I spend two command points on shoot twice and one to turn them into Emperor's Children. With Eternal Vendetta, the Contemptor, Havocs and Legionnaires get reroll wounds against a lot of targets, if I choose selection carefully. The shooting in the list usually cracks two to three tough targets in the first turn: Tank Commanders, Harpies, maybe Silent King etc. The Terminators can clear screens Turn 1 and threaten valuable targets on Turn 2. If they are charged they fight first and still have all the buffs.

Additionally, the Rubrics drop in the Dreadclaw to clear screens and target priority units with Infernal Gaze, on Turn 1. If there is a tough exposed unit, I can spend a command point to Smite them, then Infernal Gaze and then flame them. To me they are like Flamers but are a bit more reliable and can come in Turn 1. Turn 2 the Dreadclaw does mortal wounds, cracks vehicles etc. and the Rubrics flame something else, or do Banners.

Cultists are there for Banners and screening.

While the opponent is dealing with all this, I Warp Time Abaddon up the field and on the following Turn use the Apostle prayer to advance and charge him. Effectively, Terminators and Rubrics make a gap in the line and Abaddon gets charged in there.

Defense

Against an army that comes to me I have options. I can screen with the Cultists and the shooting from the list tends to get better the closer the opponent is.

Additionally, there are a lot of Smites here, with +1 to cast from the Venomcrawler, so the opponent risks getting hit by a wall of mortal wounds Turn 1.

The Contemptor can intercept, as can the Legionnaires.

I have potentially five denies and one from the Khorne strat with Abaddon, so psychic defense is decent here too.

Black Legion have a strat for fall back and shoot/charge so its hard to pin units down and Terminators and Abaddon fight first and provide a nasty counter punch. In the defensive scenario, I can also use Plate to teleport the Terminators late game.

Any thoughts?

Apologies for the giant post

Best,
Samii.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Looks good. Never a need to apologize for a well thought out post.
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




Samii wrote:
Hi all,

I had posted a while back and was going to put up a Black Legion list I was having some success with.

However, since then I've modified the list quite a bit and to be honest, it has been absolutely hammering my competition. I regularly was beating pre-nerf Votann with it and the hard counter Cadian list: super heavies and tank commanders with Relic of Lost Cadia and reroll hit and wound strat etc., so I thought I'd put it up now.

Supreme Command Detachment

Abaddon the Despoiler
Warlord - Eternal Vendetta, Paragon of Hatred, Merciless Overseer

Black Legion Battalion

Sorcerer in Terminator Armour - Force Sword, Combi-bolter, Chaos Familiar
Mark of Slaanesh
Relic: Veilbreaker Plate
Spells: Smite, Prescience, Warp Time, Delightful Agonies

Master of Possession - Bolt Pistol, Staff of Possession, Frag and Krak Grenades
Spells: Smite, Mutated Invigoration, Pact of Flesh

Dark Apostle - Bolt Pistol, Accursed Crozius, Frag and Krak Grenades
Mark of Slaanesh
Prayers: Dark Zealotry, Illusory Supplication, Blissful Devotion
2 x Dark Disciples

Chaos Contemptor - x2 Twin-volkite Culverins
Mark of Tzeentch

Chaos Terminators
x 7 Terminators
x 2 Power Fists
x 1 Combi-melta
x 5 Accursed Weapons
x 6 Combi-bolters
Champion - Chainfist, Combi-melta
Mark of Slaanesh

Rubric Marines
x 5 Rubric Marines
x 5 Warpflamers
Aspiring Sorcerer - Warpflame Pistol, Force Stave
Mark of Tzeentch
Spells: Smite, Infernal Gaze, Skeins of Fate

Legionnaires
x 9 Legionnaires
x 9 Bolt Pistols
x 1 Lascannon
x 1 Heavy Bolter
x 6 Boltguns
x 1 Balefire Tome
Aspiring Champion - Bolt Pistol, Boltgun
Mark of Tzeentch
Spells: Smite, Diabolic Strength, Skeins of Fate

Cultists Mob
x 9 Cultists
x 9 Cultist Firearms
Cultist Champion - Cultist Firearm

Cultists Mob
x 9 Cultists
x 9 Cultist Firearms
Cultist Champion - Cultist Firearm

Dreadclaw Drop Pod - Blade Struts, Thermal Jets

Venomcrawler - x 2 Excruciator Cannons, Soulflayer Tendrils and Claws

Havocs
x 4 Havocs
x 4 Lascannons
Havoc Champion - Boltgun

The list works like so: it can play defensively or offensively.

Offense

With the Sorcerer with the Plate I can get a Turn 1 charge on the Terminators fairly reliably using the MoP resurrection trick, so against a gunline I can drop the tough Terminator brick in the opponents midst very quickly. I use Merciless Overseer to make the Combi-meltas explode and have the Combi-bolters clear screens. Terminators charge screens, or exposed valuable targets. But in any case, they are a threat that needs dealing with Turn 1. I'm using Illusory Supplication, Diabolic Strength on the Champion, Prescience and Delightful Agonies to buff them.

Abaddon buffs the Legionnaires with reroll to hit and wound and I spend two command points on shoot twice and one to turn them into Emperor's Children. With Eternal Vendetta, the Contemptor, Havocs and Legionnaires get reroll wounds against a lot of targets, if I choose selection carefully. The shooting in the list usually cracks two to three tough targets in the first turn: Tank Commanders, Harpies, maybe Silent King etc. The Terminators can clear screens Turn 1 and threaten valuable targets on Turn 2. If they are charged they fight first and still have all the buffs.

Additionally, the Rubrics drop in the Dreadclaw to clear screens and target priority units with Infernal Gaze, on Turn 1. If there is a tough exposed unit, I can spend a command point to Smite them, then Infernal Gaze and then flame them. To me they are like Flamers but are a bit more reliable and can come in Turn 1. Turn 2 the Dreadclaw does mortal wounds, cracks vehicles etc. and the Rubrics flame something else, or do Banners.

Cultists are there for Banners and screening.

While the opponent is dealing with all this, I Warp Time Abaddon up the field and on the following Turn use the Apostle prayer to advance and charge him. Effectively, Terminators and Rubrics make a gap in the line and Abaddon gets charged in there.

Defense

Against an army that comes to me I have options. I can screen with the Cultists and the shooting from the list tends to get better the closer the opponent is.

Additionally, there are a lot of Smites here, with +1 to cast from the Venomcrawler, so the opponent risks getting hit by a wall of mortal wounds Turn 1.

The Contemptor can intercept, as can the Legionnaires.

I have potentially five denies and one from the Khorne strat with Abaddon, so psychic defense is decent here too.

Black Legion have a strat for fall back and shoot/charge so its hard to pin units down and Terminators and Abaddon fight first and provide a nasty counter punch. In the defensive scenario, I can also use Plate to teleport the Terminators late game.

Any thoughts?

Apologies for the giant post

Best,
Samii.


What secondaries do you play?

I have a similar list with vilbreaker plate sorcerer

I use
VETERAN RAIDER on the Sorcerer doing Psychic Interrogation Secondary with death hex and warp time just for the threat.

In your Command phase, you can select one friendly BLACK LEGION CORE or BLACK LEGION CHARACTER unit within 6" of this WARLORD. Until the end of the turn, that unit is eligible to shoot and declare a charge in a turn in which it Fell Back.

A excalted with cloak of conquest and character killing with Abaddon.
And a Slanessh Mop with Liber Hereticus for the 3 casts.

5 guys legionaries with prescience with black crusaders for +2 on a full terminator troops can shoot both bolt profiles without -1 on the meltas or fight without -1 on power fists.

Also 9 guys rubric with warp time in droppod.

And 5 + 1 Chaos Spawn as Abandons personal guard.

Don't know if anything of that is stronger than your combo, expect veteran raider. If I get one bonus round of shooting with unexpected extra movement through fall back and charge and the fight with +1 through black crusaders on the terminators I am deep in his troops/ or circling his troops directly infront of his characters for a happy little Bob Ross Accident with 4 2+ meltas and afterwards 4 2+ Powerfists!


++ Battalion Detachment -3CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [85 PL, -2CP, 1,698pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [6CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

Game Type: 4. Chapter Approved: War Zone Nephilim

Legion: Black Legion

+ HQ +

Exalted Champion [5 PL, -1CP, 90pts]: Chaos Undivided, Cloak of Conquest, Gifts of Chaos

Master of Possession [7 PL, -1CP, 120pts]: Liber Hereticus, Mark of Slaanesh, Mutated Invigoration, Pact of Flesh, Stratagem: Relic

Sorcerer in Terminator Armour [6 PL, -2CP, 110pts]: 1. Veteran Raider, Aspiring Lord, Chaos Undivided, Combi-bolter, Death Hex, Force stave, Gifts of Chaos, Veilbreaker Plate, Warptime

+ Troops +

Cultists Mob [2 PL, 50pts]
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ cultist firearm: 9x Cultist firearm, 9x Frag & Krak grenades
. Cultist Champion
. . Bolt pistol and brutal assault weapon

Cultists Mob [2 PL, 50pts]
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ cultist firearm: 9x Cultist firearm, 9x Frag & Krak grenades
. Cultist Champion
. . Bolt pistol and brutal assault weapon

Legionaries [7 PL, 130pts]: Chaos Icon, Mark of Nurgle
. Aspiring Champion: Astartes chainsword, Boltgun
. Marine w/ balefire tome: Balefire tome, Prescience
. 3x Marine w/ boltgun: 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades

+ Elites +

Chaos Terminator Squad [19 PL, -1CP, 425pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Chaos Terminator: Chainfist, Combi-melta
. Chaos Terminator: Combi-melta, Power fist
. Chaos Terminator: Combi-melta, Power fist
. Chaos Terminator: Combi-flamer, Power fist
. Chaos Terminator: Accursed weapon, Combi-flamer
. Chaos Terminator: Heavy flamer, Power fist
. Chaos Terminator: Heavy flamer, Power fist
. Chaos Terminator: Accursed weapon, Combi-flamer
. Chaos Terminator: Accursed weapon, Combi-bolter
. Terminator Champion: Black Rune of Damnation, Chainfist, Combi-melta, Trophies of the Long War

Rubric Marines [13 PL, 228pts]: Icon of Flame
. Aspiring Sorcerer: Inferno bolt pistol, Warptime
. 8x Rubric Marine w/ warpflamer: 8x Warpflamer

+ Fast Attack +

Chaos Spawn [1 PL, 25pts]: Chaos Spawn

Chaos Spawn [5 PL, 125pts]
. 5x Chaos Spawn: 5x Hideous mutations

Venomcrawler [6 PL, 105pts]

+ Heavy Support +

Havocs [8 PL, 160pts]: Mark of Tzeentch
. Havoc Champion: Astartes chainsword, Boltgun
. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Lascannon

+ Dedicated Transport +

Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 80pts]

++ Supreme Command Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [15 PL, 2CP, 300pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Detachment Command Cost [3CP]

Legion: Black Legion

+ Primarch | Daemon Primarch | Supreme Commander +

Abaddon the Despoiler [15 PL, -1CP, 300pts]: 3. Merciless Overseer, 5. Eternal Vendetta, 6. Paragon of Hatred, Stratagem: Warlord Trait

++ Total: [100 PL, 1,998pts] ++

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/24 20:50:08


What would Wally the World Eater do? 
   
Made in ie
Been Around the Block




One of the key things with the list Fip, is that it needs the command points to make the first turn shooting work: you need this as a CSM player.

The temptation is to spend all the command points on relics and warlord traits, but by keeping at least three in the bank I can do decent shooting in the first turn to equalize the natural disadvantage that CSM has in that area.

In turn 1 I jump out from behind obscuring cover and if I can remove two to three targets and/or clear out the cheaper screens and objective holders with Terminators and Rubrics, it puts the CSM units in a much stronger position than one where they are trading with shooting armies: basically just charging across the board.

Depending on the scenario, I use the command points to make the Legionaries shoot twice and turn them into Emperor's Children, so they ignore hit modifiers and get extra AP, with rerolls from Abaddon. I usually spend the last points on the Slaanesh strat to turn hits to 6's, or to Veterans the Rubrics, or have them cast twice.

The great thing is that this list can counter assault armies and can do assault well too. Turn 1 I can clear my opponent off objectives and box him in his DZ with the Terminators, so I have an advantage in Primary, while Cultists do banners etc., and I am able to clear out his chaff that would be doing the same; using the Terminators and Rubrics.

Looking at the best lists in CSM that do well: Emperor's Children and COB, I can't see how those lists do better at missions that this one. I don't have to die in combat, for example, to trade with my opponent's assault units and I shoot just as well, if not better than Emperor's Children. Furthermore, I can turn off Objective Secured and fall back and shoot/charge and have a better tactical toolkit at my disposal. While COB have a better secondary, I think I beat them on Primary and Banners every time against any opponent performance-wise.

Best,
Samii.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/29 19:08:27


 
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




What secondaries do you play else expect of banners?

I always having a hard time with secondaries for CSM.
I hadn't had much luck with double shooting legionaries in 8th edition with all CP invested. But maybe the full hit wound rerolls changes that.

What would Wally the World Eater do? 
   
Made in ie
Been Around the Block




Secondaries depend on opponent. Most of the time I take Banners and max it out and I can rely on outscoring Primary, or any of the mission-specific objectives that need actions. The damage output of the list means that I'll usually go for Grind, Bring it Down or No Prisoners. Against lists that don't give those up, I'll go for Engage, or Behind Enemy Lines with the Terminators and Rubrics/Pod.

Best,
Samii.
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




I love psychic interrogation. The extra CP is always nice, and chances for it are getting higher with venomcrawler nearby or spawns/ raptors near enemy characters. I have my sorcerer tzeentch them for the one save and the one extra cast for 1 CP of for example death hex. Against those damn zooanthrops a real blessing if shadow in the warp doesn't denies it.

Did you had any games with that list against leviathan Tyranids with zooanthrops smites?

What would Wally the World Eater do? 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Samii wrote:


With the Sorcerer with the Plate I can get a Turn 1 charge on the Terminators fairly reliably using the MoP resurrection trick


how are you getting the MoP close enough to achieve your trick, when only the sorcerer and terminators teleport out?

I can see using tip of the spear instead, still learning what's there for CSM since I decided to add them to my daemons mix.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 WindstormSCR wrote:
Samii wrote:


With the Sorcerer with the Plate I can get a Turn 1 charge on the Terminators fairly reliably using the MoP resurrection trick


how are you getting the MoP close enough to achieve your trick, when only the sorcerer and terminators teleport out?

I can see using tip of the spear instead, still learning what's there for CSM since I decided to add them to my daemons mix.


You can always run the Master of Possession and then Warptime? I tried the trick once before my indefinite break and it's not too hard.
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




How I reliably do it.
You dreadclaw droppod the MoP in. Directly behind the Terminators. That way you also have protection for your sorcerer after the termis made the charge. And a shooty unit with droppod behind the Terminators clearing their way.

What would Wally the World Eater do? 
   
Made in ie
Been Around the Block




In my experience its not that hard to get the MoP into position: even from the DZ he can advance.

I usually string the Terminators out a bit if I need to.

Did you had any games with that list against leviathan Tyranids with zooanthrops smites?


Yes, I find them not to be a big problem. I have screens and Pod to eat Smites and I also have access to denies and the Khorne strat.

Against Tyranids I usually keep things back. The shooting elements deal with Harpies Turn 1 and stay out of sight.

Turn 2, I jump out and kill Warriors with shooting, Rubrics and Terminators. The counter punch hurts a bit, but then Abaddon gets catapulted into the center and it tends to collapse.

The only problem I had with Tyranids was Harpies killing my Banners units (Cultists) Turn 1 and undermining the secondary game. I had something similar happen with the Votann bikes. When an opponent learns to counter the list, it tends to be in this way: you really need the Cultists for actions and if the opponent has a way to remove them from behind cover quickly it can be a problem.

When I have some time, I will post a couple of the more interesting games I've had.

Best,
Samii.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/11/08 22:01:48


 
   
Made in ie
Been Around the Block




I had some thoughts and wanted to put down a few of my experiences with the list in anecdotal form: its been changing continually but I think I've refined it.

A few points:

1) I've made the units smaller. The Terminators are six man now. I find that six is enough to be able to string them back to the MoP if I need, while having a footprint sufficient to block enemy units. With six the Terminators have enough killing power to trade well, without giving away too much if/when the opponent kills them. The resource allocation to deal with them is always disproportionate and they cannot really be ignored.

By not over investing in Terminators it creates assets to use elsewhere.

2) Rubrics are a very good unit. This cannot be overstated. With the Pod they come in flame stuff, smite and contest.

If you include the potential mortal wound output and Veterans, they can exceed Flamers for damage on the drop, but also can apply it more multilaterally and with the Pod support they have a lot of utility. They also function better in melee, as they can use psychic powers and fall back and shoot, with the Black Legion strat.

A Black Legion Pod becomes an excellent vehicle hunter after it drops, as it gets +1 to hit on the charge, while the overwatch from the Rubrics dissuades potential counter charges.

3) I made the Legionnaires a five man unit. This gives me the points for a unit of Raptors with Flamers, that can score objectives, or drop in mid game. I also upgraded the Havocs with the Mark of Slaanesh. The auto 6 to hit strat works very well with them. I've found that these changes mean I am not as reliant on the Legionnaires for shooting; I can save the command points on the shoot twice strat.

3) I upgraded the Contemptor and the Apostle with the Mark of Khorne and gave the Contemptor rockets, in addition to Volkites. This gives the Contemptor exploding 6's in all turns after the first. It becomes a very reliable shooting platform for CSM, especially with rerolls from Abaddon. While advance and charge prayer is good for Abaddon, I find Warp Time is enough to get him where he needs to be.

These changes give me a bit more leverage over the faster MSU lists, like Harlequins.

Best Samii.
   
Made in us
Spawn of Chaos



Spartanburg, South Carolina

Samii wrote:

3) I upgraded the Contemptor and the Apostle with the Mark of Khorne and gave the Contemptor rockets, in addition to Volkites. This gives the Contemptor exploding 6's in all turns after the first. It becomes a very reliable shooting platform for CSM, especially with rerolls from Abaddon. While advance and charge prayer is good for Abaddon, I find Warp Time is enough to get him where he needs to be.

These changes give me a bit more leverage over the faster MSU lists, like Harlequins.

Best Samii.


????

Mark of Khorne on the Contemptor would only give it +1 attacks in melee, nothing for shooting and no mark gives exploding 6s on shooting

Abaddon’s potential is wasted as a rear field buffing unit for the Contemptor (which should not be on the front lines with dual Volkite, it should in the back creating havoc while the rest of your boys do work on the front lines) this should be where abaddon is too, putting wanton slaughter on your melee units as well as dishing out rerolls on hits & wounds either for someone else or himself. Not to mention he’s practically invincible for the first 2 turn… he’s in the vanguard for me.

What prayer gives advance and charge for Black Legion? The only thing I know of is using the stratagem confluence of traitors - red corsairs for a turn.


   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator





Forgive my ignorance, but I'm watching a battle report right now where one of the players gave their warlord, a Night Lords Daemon Prince, two relics. I wasn't aware that this could be done. Is this accurate or an error?
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Forgive my ignorance, but I'm watching a battle report right now where one of the players gave their warlord, a Night Lords Daemon Prince, two relics. I wasn't aware that this could be done. Is this accurate or an error?


accurate. if you read the stratagem, a character can be given two relics as long as one is a weapon replacement.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Kangarupe wrote:
Samii wrote:

3) I upgraded the Contemptor and the Apostle with the Mark of Khorne and gave the Contemptor rockets, in addition to Volkites. This gives the Contemptor exploding 6's in all turns after the first. It becomes a very reliable shooting platform for CSM, especially with rerolls from Abaddon. While advance and charge prayer is good for Abaddon, I find Warp Time is enough to get him where he needs to be.

These changes give me a bit more leverage over the faster MSU lists, like Harlequins.

Best Samii.


????

Mark of Khorne on the Contemptor would only give it +1 attacks in melee, nothing for shooting and no mark gives exploding 6s on shooting

Abaddon’s potential is wasted as a rear field buffing unit for the Contemptor (which should not be on the front lines with dual Volkite, it should in the back creating havoc while the rest of your boys do work on the front lines) this should be where abaddon is too, putting wanton slaughter on your melee units as well as dishing out rerolls on hits & wounds either for someone else or himself. Not to mention he’s practically invincible for the first 2 turn… he’s in the vanguard for me.

What prayer gives advance and charge for Black Legion? The only thing I know of is using the stratagem confluence of traitors - red corsairs for a turn.

The Slaanesh prayer gives advance and charge. It's really, really good.

On the whole, I think you're right about the VolCon and Abaddon. Abaddon needs to be front and centre, throwing his weight around, not babysitting Dreadnoughts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/12 21:05:10


 
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Forgive my ignorance, but I'm watching a battle report right now where one of the players gave their warlord, a Night Lords Daemon Prince, two relics. I wasn't aware that this could be done. Is this accurate or an error?


It is lots of fun with 2 relics and a warlord trait.

Like a khorne night lords demon prince with talisman of burning blood, killing furry warlord trait and Stygian court claws.
He gets 10 +D3 sword attacks ap-3 dmg 3, 2 Stygian court attacks. He is always in slaughter, so hits of 6 explode, he gets 6 inch heroic and every time he kills a unit he gets 1 attack. Don't forget to laugh while he Multikills
What is your favourite overboosted character?

What would Wally the World Eater do? 
   
Made in us
Spawn of Chaos



Spartanburg, South Carolina

Ahhh… the marks! Didn’t know that one for the Slaanesh DA. I looked it up and 6” isn’t the greatest. It would be nice if it were an aura that affected all within range instead of specific god units but I suppose that would be cheesy. Killer prayer for EC though.

Thanks for the correction!
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




Samil, have your tried?:
Noise Marines full squad with blastmaster and sonic blasters and doom siren
Abaddon buffs on them full rerolls + assault 6s explodes, illusory supplicant from priest, Slanessh agonies for 5+, mutated invigoration for toughness 5 and black rune for -1 to wound?
You teleport them in with vilbreaker plate behind rubrics (or not, because they fight first and very good and can fall back and shoot for CP stratagem)

You make them Iron Warriors for 1 CP and therefore ignore cover and wound rolls can't be rerolled against them. Spend 1 CP for Slanessh Strat for blastmaster extra hit or wound if all fails for save 4 dmg. And with the 3 Assault shots per model on full rerolls and exploding 6s you clear the cover you want to jump into next turn. As the cover can be 9 inch from the cover and as your weapons are assault you can either advance in with a 3 or warptime in. Sorcerer infernal gazes and smites or warptimes them to a better position (guess warptime is legal, as the noise marines started on the board? But you need warptime to move Abandon or MoP so nevermind)
You can also try to be very clever and bring Abaddon in range with warptime and advance for that +1 charge and charge reroll so a charge that is successful in 65% of the cases to charge into the cover after you shoot the nearest melee threat to bully the shooting units in that cover with 3 attacks per model full rerolls (Or do the MoP trick as possibility for success is higher).

When your enemy wants to fall back next turn you shoot again with 2 CP excessive cruelty with full rerolls exploding 6s into that unit and then weather the storm with all your buffs as they and the iron warriors no wound reroll is still working. If not perfect, you fight first and doge all shooting and in your turn 2 you can fall back and shoot for those 2 CP that you didn't spent on excessive cruelty. Or you infernal gaze + double smite them free for no CP cost.
Terminators can drop in then near Abaddon to mop up with him while the rubrics warptime somewhere else. Round 3, buff em up again and let them stand still for 1 CP to advance + warptime them 12 +D6 inches to cause the next close-up mayhem.

Long story short, with that big dick energy move you will be winning more than Donald Trump.

Can you use iron warrior stratagems while they have that trait? I guess not, but I am not sure.

Can you warptime a unit that you teleported with vilbreaker plate?

What would Wally the World Eater do? 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator





Fip wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Forgive my ignorance, but I'm watching a battle report right now where one of the players gave their warlord, a Night Lords Daemon Prince, two relics. I wasn't aware that this could be done. Is this accurate or an error?


It is lots of fun with 2 relics and a warlord trait.

Like a khorne night lords demon prince with talisman of burning blood, killing furry warlord trait and Stygian court claws.
He gets 10 +D3 sword attacks ap-3 dmg 3, 2 Stygian court attacks. He is always in slaughter, so hits of 6 explode, he gets 6 inch heroic and every time he kills a unit he gets 1 attack. Don't forget to laugh while he Multikills
What is your favourite overboosted character?


I haven't tried the codex yet, but I was thinking that it could be fun to put Axe of the Forgemaster and Fleshmetal Exoskeleton on an Iron Warriors Terminator Lord of Nurgle. For the WT, I was thinking that it could be to use Flames of Spite to mimic the effects of a plague weapon (I'm using a Lord of Contagion as the basis for the unit).
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




God's idea With the iron lordb.

Nurgle word bearer demon with GORGET OF ETERNAL HATE ASHEN AXE and wl trait EXALTED POSSESSION. Some MoP to cast mutated invigoration and pact of flesh next round.
You fly in 14 inches and start hitting stuff with multi charges so you box the enemy in his deployment zone. -1 to hit and everything wounds you on 5 or higher. 2+ 4++ and with HEXAGRAMMATIC WARD you can hopefully outlive your enemy. Or Slanessh for 5+ feel no pain.

Edit:
Maybe make the DP Slanessh to boost him with an dark apostle with Slanessh prayer and illusory supplicant. With advance and charge you can make the charge happen. Also DAEMONIC WHISPERS for the command points, epistle of logar for 2 prayers cast. I guess it wouldn't work, but still a fun try.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/11/21 20:44:34


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Fip wrote:
God's idea With the iron lordb.

Nurgle word bearer demon with GORGET OF ETERNAL HATE ASHEN AXE and wl trait EXALTED POSSESSION. Some MoP to cast mutated invigoration and pact of flesh next round.
You fly in 14 inches and start hitting stuff with multi charges so you box the enemy in his deployment zone. -1 to hit and everything wounds you on 5 or higher. 2+ 4++ and with HEXAGRAMMATIC WARD you can hopefully outlive your enemy. Or Slanessh for 5+ feel no pain.

Edit:
Maybe make the DP Slanessh to boost him with an dark apostle with Slanessh prayer and illusory supplicant. With advance and charge you can make the charge happen. Also DAEMONIC WHISPERS for the command points, epistle of logar for 2 prayers cast. I guess it wouldn't work, but still a fun try.


Multi-charging with a single model, even one on a 60mm base, is pretty much impossible unless your opponent allows it. The Ashen Axe is a bad relic because if you're buffing your attacks you really want to just be killing the enemy outright and it only triggers on a failed LD test, which is rare. Sending a DP into the middle of the enemy is a good way to get them killed. Their protection simply isn't that good, and they will die, which feels like a waste for such a potentially useful character.
   
Made in de
Been Around the Block





Quick question: Any tanks you guys deem REALLY good to play them in CSM?
I like tanks, but unfortunately it seems 9th is not really friendly to them? Any tanks you guys still play? (Vindicator for exanple? maybe a tank heavy list?)

Thanks!
   
Made in us
Reading a Book in the Tower of Prospero





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

LeRufus wrote:
Quick question: Any tanks you guys deem REALLY good to play them in CSM?
I like tanks, but unfortunately it seems 9th is not really friendly to them? Any tanks you guys still play? (Vindicator for exanple? maybe a tank heavy list?)

Thanks!

Short answer: Not really.

Vindis are a candidate because their updated profile is less swingy (D3+3 shots vs D6).

The LandRaider might be decent due to being T9, but still expensive.

Frankly, I think vehicles overall needs some points drop.

EDIT: lemme rephrase that a bit. You can be successful with a vehicle list full of rhinos as AoC just ups the annoyance that your opponent has to focus to devote to destroying that metal box.

But a list with a bunch of CSM tanks? I've yet to see any list do okay competitively, but you'll probably do fine in casual games.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/14 21:15:37


6000
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!

4000

∞ Chaos Daemons and CSM


 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Tanks have been, and still are bad, with the exception of LR, rhino and vindicator, those are usable. Dreadnoughts are pretty much always better.
   
Made in gb
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




LeRufus wrote:
Quick question: Any tanks you guys deem REALLY good to play them in CSM?
I like tanks, but unfortunately it seems 9th is not really friendly to them? Any tanks you guys still play? (Vindicator for exanple? maybe a tank heavy list?)

Thanks!

Thanks for the reminder...

The Kratos rules for loyalists were released 07-Jun-22. CSM when!?

I'm just memeing at this point anyway. The loyalist Kratos datasheet looks real sad next to the new Rogal Dorn.
   
Made in ie
Been Around the Block




Just in regards to the two points RE Abaddon and Contemptor:

1) Its not the mark, its the Khorne prayer specifically that gives exploding 6's, as it puts you in all doctrines. That's why I switched the Mark on the Apostle.

2) In my games Abaddon buffs in the first and second turn, and then gets catapulted across the field with Warp Time and/or advance and charge. In my experience, he hits at the same time as if you teleported him, because he has to wait until Turn 2 to come on and then there's a chance he may fail the charge even with a reroll.

Its just you get the benefit of the buffs with this method and it makes the opponent play more defensively in the mid-field, for fear of an early Abaddon counter charge.

Best,
Samii.
   
Made in ie
Been Around the Block




Just to emphasize one further point RE Abaddon, Contemptor etc.

I went back to the buffed Legionnaire unit.

I think most people play CSM as a battering ram melee army. CoB run across the board and trade into melee armies well, while EC melee and shoot well also with Noise Marines.

But I actually think this paradigm is mistaken. CSM don't have the best assault units. Possessed and Chosen are good, but lack AP and strength/damage output, respectively. Terminators are good, but need support. CSM characters (Abaddon, Lord Discordant, Daemon Prince etc.) are probably the best in the game, in terms of damage output, but they need a lot of command point and relic investment. CSM are also not very fast.

My playstyle is more of a quick strike, feint and counterpunch style. I actually think this is the strongest style for CSM.

Let me explain.

Turn 1, a smaller 6-man Terminator brick gets shot across the board, with buffs for a Turn 1 charge. Opponent has to deal with it. Pod can drop in with Rubrics to support, or attack from another angle. Shooting eliminates key counter threats.

Turn 2, opponent reacts, has to split attention or focus on Terminators, neither are good options. I respond with more shooting from Contemptor, Havocs and Legionnaires, chipping away. Abaddon is positioned for a Turn 3 charge.

Turn 3, Abaddon charges and, again, opponent has to choose to focus on him or the other threats.

Meanwhile, I am scoring with Cultists, Spawn, Rubrics, Legionnaires, Pod etc.

This list emphasizes target saturation. The shooting obviously can't compare to Tau, Astra Militarum, but over time it has the effect of slowly chipping away the opponents assets, while the melee elements do work and scoring units score. It doesn't have the same melee damage output as an optimized CSM list, but it doesn't need it and in my opinion CSM melee is not optimal. You just don't have the speed, or across the board damage output.

Instead you pull the opponent into a war of attrition with probing strikes, where his mistakes are punished more than yours. Its a much more reactive playstyle. Think the boxing style of Floyd Mayweather.

It also works well as Black Legion, as you need the ability to support Abaddon with Warp Time, healing, or potentially to put him in the Pod, if needs be.

Best,
Samii.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/20 19:59:50


 
   
Made in gb
Cackling Chaos Conscript





Hello fellow followers of the Dark Gods,

I have a game coming up that's meant to be a little more on the competitve side and I was wondering what you all think of this list:

Spoiler:


++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [107 PL, 2CP, 2,000pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [6CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost

Game Type: 4. Chapter Approved: War Zone Nephilim

Legion: Creations of Bile

+ HQ +

Abaddon the Despoiler [15 PL, -1CP, 300pts]: 3. Merciless Overseer, 5. Eternal Vendetta, 6. Paragon of Hatred, Stratagem: Warlord Trait

Master of Possession [7 PL, -2CP, 120pts]: 5.-6. Twisted Regeneration, Aspiring Lord, Liber Hereticus, Mark of Slaanesh, Mutated Invigoration, Pact of Flesh, Stratagem: Relic

+ Troops +

Accursed Cultists [6 PL, 150pts]
. 10x Mutant: 10x Blasphemous appendages
. 6x Torment: 6x Hideous mutations

Accursed Cultists [6 PL, 150pts]
. 10x Mutant: 10x Blasphemous appendages
. 6x Torment: 6x Hideous mutations

Legionaries [6 PL, 100pts]: Chaos Undivided
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 3x Marine w/ astartes chainsword: 3x Astartes chainsword, 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Frag & Krak grenades
. Marine w/ special weapon: Meltagun

Legionaries [6 PL, 100pts]: Chaos Undivided
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 3x Marine w/ astartes chainsword: 3x Astartes chainsword, 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Frag & Krak grenades
. Marine w/ special weapon: Meltagun

Legionaries [6 PL, 100pts]: Chaos Undivided
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 3x Marine w/ astartes chainsword: 3x Astartes chainsword, 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Frag & Krak grenades
. Marine w/ special weapon: Meltagun

Legionaries [6 PL, 100pts]: Chaos Undivided
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 3x Marine w/ astartes chainsword: 3x Astartes chainsword, 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Frag & Krak grenades
. Marine w/ special weapon: Meltagun

+ Elites +

Chaos Terminator Squad [19 PL, -1CP, 350pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Chaos Terminator: Accursed weapon, Combi-bolter
. Chaos Terminator: Accursed weapon, Combi-bolter
. Chaos Terminator: Accursed weapon, Combi-bolter
. Chaos Terminator: Accursed weapon, Combi-bolter
. Chaos Terminator: Accursed weapon, Combi-bolter
. Chaos Terminator: Accursed weapon, Combi-bolter
. Chaos Terminator: Accursed weapon, Combi-bolter
. Chaos Terminator: Accursed weapon, Combi-bolter
. Chaos Terminator: Accursed weapon, Combi-bolter
. Terminator Champion: Black Rune of Damnation, Chainfist, Combi-bolter, Trophies of the Long War

Chosen [15 PL, 265pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Chosen: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Chosen: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Chosen: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Chosen: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Chosen: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Chosen: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Chosen: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Chosen Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Chosen w/ power fist: Bolt pistol
. Chosen w/ power fist: Bolt pistol

Chosen [15 PL, 265pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Chosen: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Chosen: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Chosen: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Chosen: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Chosen: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Chosen: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Chosen: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Chosen Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Chosen w/ power fist: Bolt pistol
. Chosen w/ power fist: Bolt pistol

++ Total: [107 PL, 2CP, 2,000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe


The Idea is score early and take all comers, using a lot of wounds and bodies to make sure I can hold objectives.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




You'll need some Power Fists on the Terminators too.
   
 
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