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The WE Discord hasn't heard anything about an army box.

Personally I'm expecting just a Combat Patrol box with Kharn or MoE as the HQ, plus some combination of zerkers, jakhals, and eightbound. That leaves the juggerlord & Angron kits to be bought separately.

Crispy78 wrote:
Is it just me that thinks planning for a second wave of models (that are supposedly ready now) requiring a second book purchase before the codex is even out is a real dick move?

It might just be the third 10th ed Codex, and if rumours are to be believed every existing book will be invalidated anyway.

 The Phazer wrote:

Crispy78 wrote:
Is it just me that thinks planning for a second wave of models (that are supposedly ready now) requiring a second book purchase before the codex is even out is a real dick move?

It might just be the third 10th ed Codex, and if rumours are to be believed every existing book will be invalidated anyway.

Which is just as bad, if not even worse. If they already have in the pipeline a replacement rulebook invalidating the codex they are yet to release, plus a replacement codex for the codex they are yet to release, maybe they should just hold off on the interim incomplete 9th edition codex and release the 10th edition codex along with 10th edition. I sure as gak won't be buying it anyway.

I will give the "rules writers" some credit with the Berserker Marines. If the running forward after being shot is true, it at least gives them more of a role compared to just being Chosen but bad.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
No army "needs" an army sets.

Maybe not literally, but in a practical sense some armies are unaffordable without them. Fyreslayers and GSC come to mind.

Knowing GW, an army set/combat patrol of WE would msot likely be Lord invocatus+one unit of zerkers+2 units of jakals

I think the nails are starting to effect some people because this kind of thing is now being posted as leaks:

 choppinboard wrote:
I think the nails are starting to effect some people because this kind of thing is now being posted as leaks:

Spoiler:

Oh, I know that one. It's J. J. Abrams ruining Star Trek again. Look at the lens flare!

POTATO.CAM.LEAK

 Dysartes wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Crispy78 wrote:
Is it just me that thinks planning for a second wave of models (that are supposedly ready now) requiring a second book purchase before the codex is even out is a real dick move?

Par for the course, Lumineth in Sigmar got through 3 army books in 4 years for the 3 waves of releases, Marines got 2 in 2 years at the turn of the edition. It's not great at all and given the off-putting anaemic release I have to assume there's a business reason behind the decisions other than "make more money" because this release will likely put a lot off.

Didn't Daughters of Khaine get through books in pretty short order, too?

About a year plus minus 2 months or so.

 choppinboard wrote:
I think the nails are starting to effect some people because this kind of thing is now being posted as leaks:

Spoiler:

For anyone getting too excited this is from Arks of Omen book 2, taken from the official preview video a couple weeks ago

 Geifer wrote:

 choppinboard wrote:
I think the nails are starting to effect some people because this kind of thing is now being posted as leaks:

Spoiler:

Oh, I know that one. It's J. J. Abrams ruining Star Trek again. Look at the lens flare!

This made me laugh and cry at the same time.

tneva82 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Crispy78 wrote:
Is it just me that thinks planning for a second wave of models (that are supposedly ready now) requiring a second book purchase before the codex is even out is a real dick move?

Par for the course, Lumineth in Sigmar got through 3 army books in 4 years for the 3 waves of releases, Marines got 2 in 2 years at the turn of the edition. It's not great at all and given the off-putting anaemic release I have to assume there's a business reason behind the decisions other than "make more money" because this release will likely put a lot off.

Didn't Daughters of Khaine get through books in pretty short order, too?

About a year plus minus 2 months or so.

The whole matter is a bit complicated. DoK had a big gap between their first and second tomes, then the third hit quickly... but people were generally OK with it because the army needed a rewrite to smooth out some rough edges.

Now I know what you are thinking reader, wait for it.

Lumineth were released as a clearly incomplete army both in fluff and mechanics, then their second tome came in short order to replace it... BUT that tome hit the same time as a (cheaper) campaign book which contained all the new stuff for Lumineth, so a player that had the first tome + campaign book was good to go and had every page of the 2nd tome in their possession. GW also explicitly told us this on release, but weren't exactly energetic about keeping that notification current. Finally they recently got their 3rd tome, which they really needed because there were some serious rough spots in their design the most glaring of which went more or less completely unaddressed. These were also problems apparent when the first tome came out, so they could have fixed them with the 2nd tome's release but basically it was just an updated 'Battletome 1B' that consolidated the information from 1A and the campaign book into one place.

Ultimately, like many (though far from all) cases it is not so much corporate greed as sheer incompetence driving the chain of events. I think many find it comforting to attribute malice to corporations being what they are, because it means there is a distinct 'bad guy' who can be blamed without any moral consequence. Blaming an entity for being foolish can feel bad in a way, both morally and because it is even more hopeless. An evil corporation knows what the 'good' options are but makes a malicious choice not to use them. An incompetent one doesn't know WTF it is doing any more than the rest of us, and simply has such power & status that it's stupid decisions affect many rather than few. Unfortunately...

A failure is a failure. It doesn't matter what their motives are. There isn't any reason to excuse it.

Voss wrote:
A failure is a failure. It doesn't matter what their motives are. There isn't any reason to excuse it.

Speculative explanation =/= excuses

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

Voss wrote:
A failure is a failure. It doesn't matter what their motives are. There isn't any reason to excuse it.

Speculative explanation =/= excuses

It 100% is when GW isn't just a bunch of dudes in their garage running a small business.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

Voss wrote:
A failure is a failure. It doesn't matter what their motives are. There isn't any reason to excuse it.

Speculative explanation =/= excuses

What purpose does the speculation serve other than making excuses?


@EviscerationPlague - to be fair, a bunch of folks running a garage operation wouldn't waste anyone's time with this kind of crap, including their own. They'd grasp keeping what customers they have happy.

Voss wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

Voss wrote:
A failure is a failure. It doesn't matter what their motives are. There isn't any reason to excuse it.

Speculative explanation =/= excuses

What purpose does the speculation serve other than making excuses?


@EviscerationPlague - to be fair, a bunch of folks running a garage operation wouldn't waste anyone's time with this kind of crap, including their own. They'd grasp keeping what customers they have happy.

I don't think they're caring about making people happy, they know they'll sell 2 books this way in a short span. It'll be the bean counters at the top pushing it, until they see it not "working" they won't engage on a more customer friendly avenue.

I'm with the opinion that it was premature releasing the army in this state. Could have happily left them in CSM, dropped angron as a campaign model with pdf rules, get all the csm players buying him then release rhe rest in early 10th with a bigger release slot.

Speculation trying to determine why something is happening isn’t foolish. If anything it can prevent being hood winked later.

It’s not the best example but it’s what I have: When Fallout 76 came out the pump shotgun didn’t have a dynamic reload animation, it just loaded five or whatever shells each time.

People thought this was a “bug” and asked the dev to fix it.

Reality, the Fallout 4 engine, the current Creation Engine, which 76 is a heavily modified version of, did not have built-in coding for dynamic reload animations.

Modders who added them to 4 had to do lots of custom scripting and mesh editing to add all the correct nodes for the engine to work right. It was not simple.

Eventually the dev releases patch notes saying they “fixed” the reload bug. Nothing special comes of that BUT by the fact the dev could lie due to player ignorance means they could easily manipulate the players in some form in theory.

If anything, they could pretend to be fixing a feature that was totally ready for launch (sans bugs) rather than admitting that the game was even less ready in terms of FEATURES as well.

I truly wish I had a MUCH better example, but trying to logically deduce why something occurred makes it far less likely for you to fall for some “bull pucky”.

Anyways as for an Army Box; so long as a CP box comes nothing is needed for any army to be an affordable entry.

What people forget is that they don’t want to include too many of the new things in a box so that people will have lots of normal boxes to buy. The army box usually contains significantly different contents from the CP box, main exception is the Thousand Sons box. And the Cadian if the Limited Ed Codex is to go by (the AM CP box will be the same as the army box, according to the codex).

Point is, unless I missed something I’m only predicting 6 new kits: Angron, Kharn, Lord on Big Doggo / Named Lord on Big Doggo, Bloodletters, Jackals and Eightbound.

Angron’s not going in either box because it’s aimed for a CP game. Kharn might be in just to dissuade you from buying more than one box. At least one if not two bloodletters, then either Jackals or Eightbound.

I’d lean Kharn, 2 bloodletters and eightbound, assuming that makes a patrol. That’d leave jackal cultists, another eightbound ( for more of the same or exalted), and two possible lord doggos for the generic and named version.

Either way, there’s so little you’d get almost everything unique to the dex from two different boxes.

This is also why there isn’t a Harlequin CP box, by the time you put together a CP model list that costs $220+ or whatever the savings are supposed to be for CP boxes, you’d havd almost every single thing they sell in one box for the army.

Pro tip, two troupe and two voidweaver boxes will make a patrol for about $150 usd. Your HQ comes from the troupe box and after that, make one of the heavy support boxes a transport instead.

Also, the Templar Army box had the dreadnought that wasn’t new (with the templars release I mean) so that isn’t a fixed thing.

Versus boxes aren’t fixed either. Piety and Pain just had Lelith. GK versus TS had a redone named character and one new HQ split between armies. Custodes vs. GS had two new generic HQ’s (or was GS an elite?) split between armies.

But then Eldritch and Omens was almost entirely new save the Forgefiend.

GW just isn’t consistent.

TreeStewges wrote:
Speculation trying to determine why something is happening isn’t foolish. If anything it can prevent being hood winked later.

It’s not the best example but it’s what I have: When Fallout 76 came out the pump shotgun didn’t have a dynamic reload animation, it just loaded five or whatever shells each time.

People thought this was a “bug” and asked the dev to fix it.

Reality, the Fallout 4 engine, the current Creation Engine, which 76 is a heavily modified version of, did not have built-in coding for dynamic reload animations.

Modders who added them to 4 had to do lots of custom scripting and mesh editing to add all the correct nodes for the engine to work right. It was not simple.

Eventually the dev releases patch notes saying they “fixed” the reload bug. Nothing special comes of that BUT by the fact the dev could lie due to player ignorance means they could easily manipulate the players in some form in theory.

If anything, they could pretend to be fixing a feature that was totally ready for launch (sans bugs) rather than admitting that the game was even less ready in terms of FEATURES as well.

I truly wish I had a MUCH better example, but trying to logically deduce why something occurred makes it far less likely for you to fall for some “bull pucky”.

Anyways as for an Army Box; so long as a CP box comes nothing is needed for any army to be an affordable entry.

What people forget is that they don’t want to include too many of the new things in a box so that people will have lots of normal boxes to buy. The army box usually contains significantly different contents from the CP box, main exception is the Thousand Sons box. And the Cadian if the Limited Ed Codex is to go by (the AM CP box will be the same as the army box, according to the codex).

Point is, unless I missed something I’m only predicting 6 new kits: Angron, Kharn, Lord on Big Doggo / Named Lord on Big Doggo, Bloodletters, Jackals and Eightbound.

Angron’s not going in either box because it’s aimed for a CP game. Kharn might be in just to dissuade you from buying more than one box. At least one if not two bloodletters, then either Jackals or Eightbound.

I’d lean Kharn, 2 bloodletters and eightbound, assuming that makes a patrol. That’d leave jackal cultists, another eightbound ( for more of the same or exalted), and two possible lord doggos for the generic and named version.

Either way, there’s so little you’d get almost everything unique to the dex from two different boxes.

This is also why there isn’t a Harlequin CP box, by the time you put together a CP model list that costs $220+ or whatever the savings are supposed to be for CP boxes, you’d havd almost every single thing they sell in one box for the army.

Pro tip, two troupe and two voidweaver boxes will make a patrol for about $150 usd. Your HQ comes from the troupe box and after that, make one of the heavy support boxes a transport instead.

Also, the Templar Army box had the dreadnought that wasn’t new (with the templars release I mean) so that isn’t a fixed thing.

Versus boxes aren’t fixed either. Piety and Pain just had Lelith. GK versus TS had a redone named character and one new HQ split between armies. Custodes vs. GS had two new generic HQ’s (or was GS an elite?) split between armies.

But then Eldritch and Omens was almost entirely new save the Forgefiend.

GW just isn’t consistent.

I'd say, in doubt, let's skip this release.

The WE vets can keep playing using the white dwarf make do rules. And those who wanted to start them can wait for a proper release in 6 months/ a year.
Maybe we still get a box or two of those shiny new Berzerkers. As a treat

 The Phazer wrote:

Crispy78 wrote:
Is it just me that thinks planning for a second wave of models (that are supposedly ready now) requiring a second book purchase before the codex is even out is a real dick move?

It might just be the third 10th ed Codex, and if rumours are to be believed every existing book will be invalidated anyway.

Oh I missed this! Releasing a new edition codex in the same year invalidating the former, or invalidating it with generic edition rules to be published in summer it's also a dick move.

TreeStewges wrote:
What people forget is that they don’t want to include too many of the new things in a box so that people will have lots of normal boxes to buy. The army box usually contains significantly different contents from the CP box, main exception is the Thousand Sons box. And the Cadian if the Limited Ed Codex is to go by (the AM CP box will be the same as the army box, according to the codex).

Except they are more than willing to have all new kits + limited edition book to jack up price so buying multiples isn't that efficient.

There's even very recent(like 2 weeks old) example. Slaves to darkness. 14 all new models(3 even being never seen unit), battle tome, cards, price is discounted compared to buying individual items separately(even before factoring inevitable higher prices for newer version of daemon prince and chosens compared to old models).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Garrac wrote:

 The Phazer wrote:

Crispy78 wrote:
Is it just me that thinks planning for a second wave of models (that are supposedly ready now) requiring a second book purchase before the codex is even out is a real dick move?

It might just be the third 10th ed Codex, and if rumours are to be believed every existing book will be invalidated anyway.

Oh I missed this! Releasing a new edition codex in the same year invalidating the former, or invalidating it with generic edition rules to be published in summer it's also a dick move.

Mind you that's just speculation at the moment. I keep hearing that but I haven't seen anybody provide actual concrete evidence suggesting GW changes their release patterns here.

To add some WE content to this post beore going on a tangent, one of the Discord sources says that the Combat Patrol will be Juggerlord, Berzerkers, and Jakhals.

The other says he was told 10E will not be a full rules reset as some are speculating.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Lumineth were released as a clearly incomplete army both in fluff and mechanics, then their second tome came in short order to replace it... BUT that tome hit the same time as a (cheaper) campaign book which contained all the new stuff for Lumineth, so a player that had the first tome + campaign book was good to go and had every page of the 2nd tome in their possession. GW also explicitly told us this on release, but weren't exactly energetic about keeping that notification current. Finally they recently got their 3rd tome, which they really needed because there were some serious rough spots in their design the most glaring of which went more or less completely unaddressed. These were also problems apparent when the first tome came out, so they could have fixed them with the 2nd tome's release but basically it was just an updated 'Battletome 1B' that consolidated the information from 1A and the campaign book into one place.

Ultimately, like many (though far from all) cases it is not so much corporate greed as sheer incompetence driving the chain of events. I think many find it comforting to attribute malice to corporations being what they are, because it means there is a distinct 'bad guy' who can be blamed without any moral consequence. Blaming an entity for being foolish can feel bad in a way, both morally and because it is even more hopeless. An evil corporation knows what the 'good' options are but makes a malicious choice not to use them. An incompetent one doesn't know WTF it is doing any more than the rest of us, and simply has such power & status that it's stupid decisions affect many rather than few. Unfortunately...

It sounds as though some combination of these events ocurred:
a) Marketing didn't want to go all-in on producing a new range of models until they saw how the initial wave sold, OR they wanted the first wave to help decide production quantities for wave 2.
b) Other projects (such as the 40k 9E launch) meant that their in-house toolmakers couldn't develop all of the Lumineth kits that had been designed in time, so rather than delay they decided to split the release in two

In either case, some combination of manufacturing & marketing decisions are dictating the shape of game rules.

Voss wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

Voss wrote:
A failure is a failure. It doesn't matter what their motives are. There isn't any reason to excuse it.

Speculative explanation =/= excuses

What purpose does the speculation serve other than making excuses?

I don't think it's controversial to say that better understanding is a good thing. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Any business (or any other human being in general) is infinitely more likely to respond positively to a customer with constructive feedback (i.e. "I don't like you doing A because X Y Z"), over customers just yelling insults at them from dark corners of the Internet.

Sometimes when customers understand why decisions were made that way, they can offer workable feedback that results in positive changes. Case in point:
This time last year GW were putting out printed points updates with Chapter Approved. To the community this was a flawed system as due to print deadlines it meant any changes lagged months behind the actual game. When this system was changed to points available via free download, GW acknowledged that it was done because customers wanted the updates to be faster & more accurate. That change was achieved by enough people in the community understanding the situation and what caused things to not work.

There are other times decisions are being made with information or influences that average people have no idea or concept of. There's plenty of random and very boring problems involved in real world businesses that stand between you and the plastic space model you want mostest of all; international shipping, quality control, risk management, production planning, etc. Explaining & understanding those issues helps people to better set their expectations.

Alternatively, we can all just switch off our brains, and yell INCOMPETENCE and SHILL into the Internet forevermore while nothing improves.

 xttz wrote:
To add some WE content to this post beore going on a tangent, one of the Discord sources says that the Combat Patrol will be Juggerlord, Berzerkers, and Jakhals.

Would likely need at least one box duplicated then or that's very scary prospect for model prices.

a) Marketing didn't want to go all-in on producing a new range of models until they saw how the initial wave sold, OR they wanted the first wave to help decide production quantities for wave 2.

Nah by the time wave 1 came on sale wave 2 models were done and ready. Lead times. Especially as wave 1 was couple months late from supposed launch date.

More likely just not wanting to put in huge number of kits at once. The initial sales are biggest one and even GW knows players can't buy 20+ kits all at once. Better to spread them out. Same as how sisters of battle got their models in multiple waves.

If GW doubles kits they release at once does that means players hobby budget magically doubles for the month?

tneva82 wrote:

a) Marketing didn't want to go all-in on producing a new range of models until they saw how the initial wave sold, OR they wanted the first wave to help decide production quantities for wave 2.

Nah by the time wave 1 came on sale wave 2 models were done and ready. Lead times. Especially as wave 1 was couple months late from supposed launch date.

The injection molds would likely be done and ready and they may well have made some sprues already cast up, but a year is still plenty of time to tweak production planning. Confirmed sales figures from the wave 1 army box would let GW adjust between producing X, Y, or Z numbers of models for wave 2 and avoid over-producing stock.

tneva82 wrote:
More likely just not wanting to put in huge number of kits at once. The initial sales are biggest one and even GW knows players can't buy 20+ kits all at once. Better to spread them out. Same as how sisters of battle got their models in multiple waves.

If GW doubles kits they release at once does that means players hobby budget magically doubles for the month?

This is true. It's less risky for GW to put out ~10 kits in one wave for long-time factions like CSM, Eldar, or Guard as they will have a wide established base of customers. For mostly new brand factions like Lumineth or World Eaters, it makes sense to keep some designs back for a future release.

Scuttlebutt was that the initial C19 lockdowns in China forced their hand on the army book contents for the Lumineth's initial release.

TreeStewges wrote:
Point is, unless I missed something I’m only predicting 6 new kits: Angron, Kharn, Lord on Big Doggo / Named Lord on Big Doggo, Bloodletters, Jackals and Eightbound.

I'm assuming that you mean the new Berserker kit when you've said Bloodletters here, but where are you getting the idea that we're getting another new plastic Kharn kit?

Credit once again to Khornestar:

Spinegrinder is a great name for anything, really.

Little disappointed. It would've been very thematic for his attacks to go up, but other stats decrease, as he took more wounds.

I 'spose this is kind of the 'best' alternative, as he's still incredibly dangerous right up until he's dead.