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doktor_g's 7th Ed Errata:

Invulnerable, Cover, Armor and other saves are not allowed to be re-rolled by any means whether it is by a psychic power, unique relic, innate ability or other means.

There are a LOT more issues than just that.

In addition to that, which is worse-a 2+ armour/3+ invuln, followed by a 2+ FNP, or a 5+ rerollable armor, such as that had by a Conscript with a Priest?

Disagree. See errata above.

That... That addresses nothing of what I said.

A 5+ rerollable armor has a 55.56% chance of saving, and is ignored by a lot of things. A 2+ armor/3+ invuln followed by a 2+ FNP has a 97.22% (94.44% with invuln) chance of ignoring a wound.

I completely disagree with your "fix".

 doktor_g wrote:
doktor_g's 7th Ed Errata:

Invulnerable, Cover, Armor and other saves are not allowed to be re-rolled by any means whether it is by a psychic power, unique relic, innate ability or other means.

While this could be indeed a good thing, it doesn't fullfil the promess of making the game more balanced at all. It removes a gimmick of the Tzeentch Daemon army and that's pretty much it. What happens to ability that allow for failed armor saved to be rerolled are they cancelled? Are they replaced? If so by what? If they are cancelled how much point decrease are those units going to get. The imbalance in 40K is a very complicated problem with numerous elements that need to be taken in comsideration. One sentence will only fix one problem (and maybe create several more).

Well, it does tone down the more powerful armies. I can't think of anything excepting Guard and their Priests (and anyone else with Priests, so Sisters and Inquisition) who get to reroll saves. But it certainly doesn't fix the entire game-there are a whole host more issues than survivable models.

I'd say that the impact on a 5+ save would not be nearly as large as it would on a 3+ or 2+ save. The 5+ save is already ignored by most things, so taking away their rerollable would hurt but not nearly as much as it would hurt the unit that normally laughs as they reroll their 2+ or 2++.

It may not fix all of 40k's 40,000 problems, but I think it's a great start.

The point is, there's nothing INHERENTLY wrong with rerolling saves. The issue is with 2+ rerollables, for instance, since that's a better than 97% chance of saving.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Well, it does tone down the more powerful armies. I can't think of anything excepting Guard and their Priests (and anyone else with Priests, so Sisters and Inquisition) who get to reroll saves. But it certainly doesn't fix the entire game-there are a whole host more issues than survivable models.

Wait, you can't think of anything that rerolls saves?

2++ rerollable has been an issue for almost the entirety of 6th and 7th edition.

Lets think - Daemons of Tzeentch re-roll all saves of 1.

Eldar Runes of Fate power Fortune lets the unit re-roll all saves.

Many units can re-roll their cover saves when Jinking - Ravenwing, Harlequins (hah!), etc, and can easily bring this up to a 2+ cover save.

The Space Marine librarirus power lets the unit reroll saves.

Just as some examples, Eldar, and Tzeentch Daemons have been rocking the 2++ reroll for a while and Space Marines have joined the crowd. The biggest offenders are definitely the Eldar power Fortune and Tzeentch daemons.

Woops! I can't think of any weaker armies that get to reroll saves, excepting those guys.

Eldar, Tzeentch Daemons, and Marines are all up top.

Nothing among the overpowered units has rerollable saves. So this proposed rule doesn't fix anything.

Rerollable examples off the top of my head:
-Eldar
-Ravenwing
-Marines
-Wolves (superfriends)
-Daemons
-Dark Eldar w Allies
-Sisters
-Orks (DLS)
-Tyranids

Jesus this is the best errata ever. The amount that it hurts top tier is proportional to how little it hurts bottom tier. How in all logic is there an argument to this. And, JNAProductions Who gets a 2+ FNP? Only one army this doesnt hurt to my knowledge is Crons. Maybe praetorians?

This errata is brilliant. Its the best errata ever. Its big league.

Pain engines rerolling 1s on their fnp when near the warlord haemonculus? Op?

Harlequins rerolling 1's when taken in cegorarches revenge? OP?

Your fix does little to fix the imbalance of 40k, only hamstringing certain builds, or which not all of them were overperforming. Balance with a sledgehammer isn't balance at all.

How does this fix gladius, scatbikes, riptide spam??? It doesn't.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Pain engines rerolling 1s on their fnp when near the warlord haemonculus? Op?

Or any Thousand Sons units with their Formation bonus.

Balancing 40k is NOT simple. Aren't there something like 22 factions?

 doktor_g wrote:
Rerollable examples off the top of my head:
-Eldar
-Ravenwing
-Marines
-Wolves (superfriends)
-Daemons
-Dark Eldar w Allies
-Sisters
-Orks (DLS)
-Tyranids

Jesus this is the best errata ever. The amount that it hurts top tier is proportional to how little it hurts bottom tier. How in all logic is there an argument to this. And, JNAProductions Who gets a 2+ FNP? Only one army this doesnt hurt to my knowledge is Crons. Maybe praetorians?

This errata is brilliant. Its the best errata ever. Its big league.

I bolded the weak factions you're hurting.

And Smashfeth gets it. The Iron Hands Chapter Master in a Command Squad with the Gorgon's Chain.

Edit: Also, you sound REALLY full of yourself. Just letting you know you might want to toot your own horn less.

It's an okay start, but there's a ton more that needs to be hit with a wrench. Blasts take too long, getting new people to understand battleforged army construction requires a special class, most vehicles suck, some units suck, formations are dumb and distribute power multipliers unevenly, several armies suck, some mechanics need two pages of FAQ for a single rule, some powers suck, some powers rock the house still...

There's a lot of tinkering left to do before the thing purrs.

Speaking of powers, what does Veil of Time do under this errata?

You get to punch yourself in the face for being dumb enough to cast a power that no longer has any effect.

Preeeetty sure that the OP is trolling at this point, based off of his tone, responses, and the vagueness and incompleteness of his original idea.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Preeeetty sure that the OP is trolling at this point, based off of his tone, responses, and the vagueness and incompleteness of his original idea.

Ouch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 doktor_g wrote:
Rerollable examples off the top of my head:
-Eldar
-Ravenwing
-Marines
-Wolves (superfriends)
-Daemons
-Dark Eldar w Allies
-Sisters
-Orks (DLS)
-Tyranids

Jesus this is the best errata ever. The amount that it hurts top tier is proportional to how little it hurts bottom tier. How in all logic is there an argument to this. And, JNAProductions Who gets a 2+ FNP? Only one army this doesnt hurt to my knowledge is Crons. Maybe praetorians?

This errata is brilliant. Its the best errata ever. Its big league.

I bolded the weak factions you're hurting.

And Smashfeth gets it. The Iron Hands Chapter Master in a Command Squad with the Gorgon's Chain.

Edit: Also, you sound REALLY full of yourself. Just letting you know you might want to toot your own horn less.

Ouch. Also.

Nobody got the "big league" part except the guy from France?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My point can be summed up with this question. Is there a top 8 at the LVO that didnt have rerollables?

Not trying to be a jerk here, being genuinely sincere when I say this:

It sounds like you are either in, or trying to get into, the tournament scene, perhaps with one of the armies you're 'raising issue' with or maybe you are one of those armies that doesn't get those re-rolls and is mad about that. I'm not sure, not gonna speculate or assume. But, with that said, have you considered not playing with people who are in the competitive scene? To me at least, it seems like you are having a less-than-satisfactory experience with it. Perhaps you should try playing more in-tune with the lore with other like-minded people, maybe give the competitive scene a break for a while and play using some homebrow, such as the lovely homebrew found on this forum or even make your own and test it with your fellow casual 40k players.

So fix the broken rerolls. Again-5+ rerollable armor is not something that needs fixing. Don't blanket ban something because some of it is too good.

How about we ban Monstrous Creatures too, since Magnus and Riptides are so damn good? You know, because that won't have any far-reaching consequences.

 Marik Law wrote:
Not trying to be a jerk here, being genuinely sincere when I say this:

It sounds like you are either in, or trying to get into, the tournament scene, perhaps with one of the armies you're 'raising issue' with or maybe you are one of those armies that doesn't get those re-rolls and is mad about that. I'm not sure, not gonna speculate or assume. But, with that said, have you considered not playing with people who are in the competitive scene? To me at least, it seems like you are having a less-than-satisfactory experience with it. Perhaps you should try playing more in-tune with the lore with other like-minded people, maybe give the competitive scene a break for a while and play using some homebrow, such as the lovely homebrew found on this forum or even make your own and test it with your fellow casual 40k players.

@Mark: Canadians are so nice. Ugh. Had to go back and edit my comment. Yes into competitive scene.


@JNAProd: I assume you play IG? How dependent are your lists on rerollables? On a scale of 0-10. Zero being not dependent. 10 being if i cant get them list collapses? If its low.... my point is again reinforced. My errata idea hurts top tier the MOST. I dont think Ive ever played an AM with rerollables. My favorite faction has one relic Da Lukky stik and it is an AUTO INCLUDE do you know why? Because its broken.

To thread... do the math.


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Riptides are vulnerable to grav.
Magnus only is worth it with rerollables

Wolves (superfriends)??

DLS is an autoinclude but it's far from being broken, it's just almost a better attack squig as its real advantage is to grant 1-2 more S10 wounds. A warboss on a bike has a 4+ save and he probably never rerolls it with DLS, same as his jink save as his buddies take the wounds before him. Same for the megarmor, the lack of invuln and being only T5 means that the boyz will get the wounds before him. I never use DLS to tank wounds, and I think its real advantage is to buff the WS of the entire unit: 18 boyz (plus the warboss) that hit on 3 is way better than rerolling saves.

And what about my army? I have a healthy W/D/L with my dudes, and I've not used a single rerollable save, and yet according to you, my army often uses them? I don't think I've actually seen a rerollable save in my army, barring psychic powers everyone gets?
With my 30k guys, I'll have a rerollable 3+ against blasts and templates (Breachers), but that's not regarded as game breaking in 30k.

I don't play IG (yet) but I have a friend who runs an Ogryn-Star, and yes, he relies on his rerollable saves a lot. It's not a competitive list, but removing the rerolls turns it from not that good to pure crap.

Here Is my attempt to fix 40k in one sentence: Erase the formation from existence and only play with the CAD. It would not fix all of the issues by any stretch of the imagination but, it is a good place to start.

 Howscat wrote:
Here Is my attempt to fix 40k in one sentence: Erase the formation from existence and only play with the CAD. It would not fix all of the issues by any stretch of the imagination but, it is a good place to start.

Can we still allow all the CAD-like detachments, such as Baal Strike Force.