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As the titles says, expect Spoilers.

You have been warned!

So, here's two that spring to mind....


1. Has Luther really been set free? The Changeling opened a lot of cells, and I feel it was certainly implied Luther's was one of them.

2. The Library of Ptolemy. Why would Guilliman ordered it sealed on pain of death? I mean, to what aim? Is that not somewhat out of character for Guilliman?

So there's two questions, let's have your answers and your own questions, yeah?

Well, according to some rumour I saw on here, there were hints in the book about the future of the Imperium/ Guilliman. The part about him shutting down the library to everyone seemed kind of unnecessary, like it was supposed to be from a different book or something. I think it's a hint of something to come. Maybe it represents further technological repression? Or maybe it further reinforces the current rumour of Nu-marines, how the time of learning is on hold and an age of war being declared by forbidding people to enter the Library is the precursor to the mechanicus/ Cawl creating new technologies for warfare under Guilliman's direct order.

As for Luther, I read that he got released during Wrath of Magnus?

The library thing was pretty much poor writing from GW. Shutting down library isn't going to have much impact on war effort short term(librarians are mighty warriors...not!). Could have actually bigger negative effect in the long run due to lack of advance of knowledge.

Also seems uncharacteristic for Guillimann. The primarch who was setting his legion for post-war period. He thinks long term and prepares for time when his warriors aren't needed for a while.

Budget cut would make sense but total closure? Feels odd.

Is the library shut or just shut to visitors? It's possible it's still being used just not by random members of the public. Knowledge is power and with Abaddon sweeping across the Imperium short term survival would take priority over long term considerations.

Has it ever been said what the Library is for? If it's mainly known for its deep philosophical and artistic works, then there is a logic behind it.

how is Luther still alive?

LightKing wrote:
how is Luther still alive?

I'm assuming that plot armour not only protects from bullets but also from the effects of aging...

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Is the library shut or just shut to visitors? It's possible it's still being used just not by random members of the public. Knowledge is power and with Abaddon sweeping across the Imperium short term survival would take priority over long term considerations.

I'd need to re-read the paragraph to be sure, but I'm pretty sure it's sealed sealed - protected by heavy Servitors and everything.

It's the exact incongruity of Guilliman's action there that's so intriguing. He's not the type to do stuff 'just because' - and given he's not best pleased with the ignorance of the Imperium as he finds it, shutting away knowledge is a very, very odd move. Unless, and this is arguable, he considers it to now be a repository of ignorance rather than knowledge? Akin to say finding Breitbart is the sole news source when you know it only ever talks absolute bollocks?

Because it has the Arcanium in the center with the original manuscript of the codex astartes within it, it was also Rowboat's little hidey hole as a child. Probably he has something written within the codex that he doesn't want others to see. He was stuck there in stasis all this time so it's likely everyone was kept out before because of that.

Would not surprise me if he had a plan to defeat Terra should it be turned against the Imperium.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

LightKing wrote:
how is Luther still alive?

I'm assuming that plot armour not only protects from bullets but also from the effects of aging...

He was kept in stasis almost all the time. He hasn't had much ageing to do.

I figured the shutting of the library and its lore was a hint/ telling the fans of the current version. To forget what they know. Its gone. Its all changing. The lore doesnt matter anymore

Perhaps to stop the library becoming the first chapel to Guilliman?

Or GW writers simply writing it because they thought it sounds cool.

Do not want to start separate thread but I have another question:
Guilliman is looking at Cypher's sword and recognizes it feeling fear (or something like that). I always thought it was a Lion's sword Cypher is carrying. Why would then RG feel like that looking at Lion's sword?

 Shadow Walker wrote:
Do not want to start separate thread but I have another question:
Guilliman is looking at Cypher's sword and recognizes it feeling fear (or something like that). I always thought it was a Lion's sword Cypher is carrying. Why would then RG feel like that looking at Lion's sword?

who knows, we might get an inkling in future HH books, right now the swords been broken. one possiability is the sword was reforged (or the Lion got a new one) and somehow became some sort of "soul eater" or something

tneva82 wrote:
Or GW writers simply writing it because they thought it sounds cool.

I dunno - it's stated that the Library closure was a shock to many, so it would seems there's an as yet unrevealed purpose behind it?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
2. The Library of Ptolemy. Why would Guilliman ordered it sealed on pain of death? I mean, to what aim? Is that not somewhat out of character for Guilliman?

Because it contains the secret history of the Ultramarines - Imperium Secundus ("Lord Guilliman’s failure and folly during the Great Heresy") and how Guilliman ignored the Codex before he'd even finished writing it .

That's a fair point!

Haven't read those Heresy books yet, but definitely food for thought. Though one would imagine it's all been read in the intervening 10,000 years?

The side that contains the Codex Astartes is public, but the secret history side was sealed & hidden - and as far back as the 2nd Founding there were Ultramarine Chapter Masters discussing it's destruction.

(Mentioned in 'The Aegidan Oath' short story)

 Shadow Walker wrote:
Do not want to start separate thread but I have another question:
Guilliman is looking at Cypher's sword and recognizes it feeling fear (or something like that). I always thought it was a Lion's sword Cypher is carrying. Why would then RG feel like that looking at Lion's sword?

I thought that the Lion's sword was one of the few artifacts in the universe that could kill the the Emperor outright.

It's unknown whether Cypher knows this. So there are a number of possibilities.

1. Cypher is loyal and wants to kill the Emperor to resurrect him, and knows about the Lion's sword so won't use it.
2. Cypher is loyal and wants to kill the Emperor to resurrect him, but doesn't know about the Lion's sword so might inadvertently kill him outright.
3. Cypher is a traitor who wants to kill the Emperor and knows the Lion's sword is one of the few things that can do it.

Cypher's such an awesome character I hope they never reveal what his intentions are as the mystery is the best bit about it.

beast_gts wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
2. The Library of Ptolemy. Why would Guilliman ordered it sealed on pain of death? I mean, to what aim? Is that not somewhat out of character for Guilliman?

Because it contains the secret history of the Ultramarines - Imperium Secundus ("Lord Guilliman’s failure and folly during the Great Heresy") and how Guilliman ignored the Codex before he'd even finished writing it .

Ah now that makes sense I always thought that the main grimdark thing about the Ultramarines was that they were stunning propagandists. Paint themselves as poster boys, but then circumvent the rules at any given opportunity (mainly by enforcing codex compliancy on other chapters and splitting the military branches, but then making their chapter non-codex compliant with Tyrannic War Veterans and retaining control over the Macragge PDF). Slippery buggers. Actually makes me like them, and tolerate the amount of fanboyism that they get as it's all a front.

True - and how many Ultramarines are in the Deathwatch? ;-)

It then makes sense that you've got some Ultras who believe their own propaganda (Sicarius) and others know the truth and roll with it (Tigurius).

Surely we must discuss the question of what Cawl has been preparing for Roboute for thousands of years?

I've seen mentions of 'Super Space Marines' but really how much more super can they get, would they be better than Custodes? And I feel that they would have to have been produced in large numbers and be immune to Chaos to make a substantial difference to the current galaxy spanning conflict.

It could be a space ship but since we know it is 'works on Mars' so that eliminates things like a deathstar or a great ark on which humanity can flee the Milky Way.

It could be sentient machine soldiers like the Men of Iron but Roboute is not so blind as to repeat the mistakes of the past. I would question whether these be much more effective than the Imperium's current armed forces anyway.

It could be technology capable of sealing off the warp from the material realm, but as Cawl seemed to only learn about the true purpose of the Cadian pylons recently that would be a little weird.

Honestly I am struggling to think of anything that would be particularly game changing given the capabilities of the current 40k factions, we already have Gods and Daemons running about!
Maybe the Imperium are going for a wonder victory?

Kroem wrote:
Surely we must discuss the question of what Cawl has been preparing for Roboute for thousands of years?

Wan't the line just 'weapons'?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"From Balisarius Cawl's forges on Mars, Guilliman planned to bring forth new and terrible weapons whose fury even the worshippers of the Chaos Gods would be unable to withstand."

new weapons most likely strikes me as this is where GW is going to get any new Imperial kits they put out in the future. rather then "ohh yes, this item has been around forever, we've only not seen it since now" ala Centurions, Razorbacks, Stormhawks, and every oher new toy the IoM on a whole has gotten since the game launched, I imagine from now on new toys will be "from the workshop of crawl comes the Harrier tank-destroyer!"

The Library would have been shut due to imperium secondus and other secrets about Gulliman.

As for what Cael has been working on, it would have to be something that Guilliman foresaw needing. At the time they had the ability to build fleets of ships and legions of super heavy tanks. Maybe the device they used for long range communication and teleportation, effectively allowing a rapid, organised and co-ordinated war on a galactic scale in real time.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Or GW writers simply writing it because they thought it sounds cool.

I dunno - it's stated that the Library closure was a shock to many, so it would seems there's an as yet unrevealed purpose behind it?

Bobby G is 1/32 Eldar and after hearing that that kind of stuff isn't cool anymore from his definitelynot half eldar librarians he decided to lock his birth certificate away so as not to deal with the birthers when he becomes the new Emperor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kroem wrote:
Surely we must discuss the question of what Cawl has been preparing for Roboute for thousands of years?

Bobby G: "Cawl, bro?"
Cawl: "Yeh?"
Bobby G: "Promise me, if I ever end up becoming like some sort of eternal vegetable you'll cut off the life support"
Cawl: "I got a better idea" *plays ancient holotape*


Bobby G: "Feth yeh do that instead"
Cawl: "I'll get around to it later bro"
Bobby G: "Cool! I'm going to go work on that epic prank"
Cawl: "That codex astartes thing?"
Bobby G: "codex asstardees, not codex astartes. You know, to trick those chaos idiots into thinking they know our strategies while giving them purposely bad ones. I mean what kind of idiot would even need something like this it'd be so rigid it'd never adapt to a flowing battlefield"
*walks away laughing*
"Oh hey Fulgrim what's up"

icn1982 wrote:
The Library would have been shut due to imperium secondus and other secrets about Gulliman.

As for what Cael has been working on, it would have to be something that Guilliman foresaw needing. At the time they had the ability to build fleets of ships and legions of super heavy tanks. Maybe the device they used for long range communication and teleportation, effectively allowing a rapid, organised and co-ordinated war on a galactic scale in real time.

could be, my guess is it'll be a new generation of weapons. for two reasons, first of all on an OOC matter, it gives GW a chance to sell new toys. (which let's face it, they wanna sell us stuff) secondly, by time Gulliman "died" the heresy was about 100 years old, not that long and Gulliman most likely knew eventually Chaos would resurge again. so, what steps do you take after fighting a civil war against half your military, when the dust settles and much of that force is still out there? in the short term you fortify, but in the long term, you're gonna want a new generation of weapons that will give you a decisive edge over the old generation. honestly I think I'd prioritize a replacement for the bolt gun that would be more effective vs Marine armor. (on an OOC level I hope that doesn't come, we have too much high ap shooting in the game already)

Of course if we are heading the way of hero hammer, then a new batch of demi primarchs (something in between space marines and a full blown primarch).

BrianDavion wrote:
new weapons most likely strikes me as this is where GW is going to get any new Imperial kits they put out in the future. rather then "ohh yes, this item has been around forever, we've only not seen it since now" ala Centurions, Razorbacks, Stormhawks, and every oher new toy the IoM on a whole has gotten since the game launched, I imagine from now on new toys will be "from the workshop of crawl comes the Harrier tank-destroyer!"

And 10,000 years is long enough for even The Adeptus Mechanicus to properly approve something!

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

LightKing wrote:
how is Luther still alive?

I'm assuming that plot armour not only protects from bullets but also from the effects of aging...

Luther been held in a statsis cell since 2nd edition angels of death.