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2017/03/14 19:58:35
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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PLEASE READ BEFORE RESPONDING: This is not a comprehensive or concrete list of suggestions. This is not a thread for people to complain about the relative power of their armies. I am trying to get a sense of whether the stereotype of Tau/Eldar players that's being sold to the Proposed Rules forum has any basis in fact.
I'm seeing a lot of massive buffs to non-Eldar/Tau units and broad sweeping changes to the core rules in Proposed Rules getting justified as necessary to compete in a world of Riptides, Scatterbikes, and D-weapons. When I've asked I've also been told that giving massive buffs to the rest of the game is somehow more palatable than trying to suggest fixes to the problem units in the game, and that Eldar/Tau players would object to their toys being taken away.
As an Eldar player I'm finding this extremely confusing, as I happen to think that intentionally choosing not to play with massed D-weapons/scatterbikes or putting up suggestions here that distortion be nerfed and Windriders be limited to one gun per three models is more balanced, more straightforward, and less annoying than stuffing the rest of the game with massive price cuts, easy access to Fleshbane/2+ poison, and 30k heavy support squads (at a 5pt/model discount over the original, of course).
So I'd like to hear firsthand from other Eldar players and some Tau players. Firsthand. Directly. Would you be more annoyed to wake up tomorrow and find out that Riptides had become 3+ armour and Riptides/Stormsurges had lost access to stimulant injectors, that Windrider Jetbikes had been downgraded to 4+ armour and split into a Troops unit capped at one gun per three models and a Fast Attack unit that could have as many guns as they liked (and couldn't be taken in a Windrider Host formation), and that Wraithknights had been bumped to 450pts and could only be taken as 0-1 per Core choice in a Craftworld Warhost rather than as an Auxiliary choice? Or if you woke up tomorrow to find that vehicles now had an armour save, that Plague Marines had 2+ Poison on all attacks of any kind, and that all Land Raider-chassis tanks had become 50pts cheaper overnight?
As a follow-up question: What makes people so attached to the 220pt Ion Accelerator/Stimulant Injector Riptide, the D-Scythe Wraithguard, and the 27pt/model 100%-gun-density scatterbike unit that they insist on revising the entire game around them, rather than change them in any way?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/14 20:00:21
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2017/03/14 21:29:39
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator
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Eldar aren't my main army but I agree; Windriders weapon availability especially is just broken, to bolster other armies to compensate would mean breaking them too, which I don't think can possibly lead to a fun game for anyone. D-weapons are easier to fix.
It's a huge shame too, as otherwise the Craftworlds codex is good, though personally I preferred the previous one for balance (excluding knight spam) and didn't think it needed replaced since knights could have just been errata'd. But then GW never does that, instead they'd rather release a new, more broken codex *sigh*.
Anyway, I just don't use spam; I do have a single D-Scythe Wraithguard unit but only because the weapons look cool on the models, and the one unit is hardly overpowered.
But yeah, the correct way to fix the problems is to… fix the problems! Limit heavy weapons on Windriders to one in three or five for a start. The D-weapons fix has more options, but I'd probably just put them back to how they were in the last codex; I don't recall anyone complaining they weren't any good, and S4 AP2 was IMO a better fit for D-scythes anyway.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/14 21:30:44
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2017/03/14 22:01:23
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Missionary On A Mission
Eastern VA
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As someone who plays both Tau and Eldar, I'd be basically OK with nerfs to the problem units as long as they're not nerfed into uselessness.
Knocking the Riptide down to no invuln, no FNP, 4+ save, T5, W3, while raising it to 285pts, would make me furious. Reasonable nerfs, like say making it Jet Pack Infantry, losing the 3++ nova option, going to 3+ armor and losing the ion accelerator overcharge option and reducing the IA's range to 30"? OK, I'll take that.
Scatbikes? Gah, I'm not even sure why these are a thing. Your proposed change would be fine by me. (Let Autarchs and Shining Spears keep their 3+, please. They're already on that fine line between "situationally decent" and "usually garbage".)
Wraithguard going back to their 6e weapons profiles? Sure! The Wraithknight should keep real D unless something is done to address deathstars, but Wraithguard dropping down to S10 AP2 ID-on-6 is fine by me. It'd also give me a reason - besides the slightly OP aspect host formation - to take Fire Dragons over Wraithguard.
As for your buff-everyone-else options... Well, I'd really like the cost break on Land Raiders and armor save on vehicles. Some of the other buffs, err, less so. Plague Marines could use a little something, but Fleshbane all around is overkill.
At my shop, scatterbikes and iontides are actually pretty rare. Stim-equipped bursttides are a common sight, but the stims are a lot more necessary when you need to nova to get any kind of reasonable offensive power (215 pts for 8 BS3 S6 AP4 shots is unimpressive; make that 12 with Rending and it's a bit more interesting) and you have Gets Hot. (Which I'd get rid of, even while nerfing other bits.)
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~4500 -- ~4000 -- ~2000 -- ~5000 -- ~5000 -- ~4000 |
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2017/03/14 22:12:38
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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My issue with Armour Save improvements is it is not consistent.
Dark Eldar Reavers wear a Wych Suit (6+). Reaver Jetbike improves it by 1 (5+).
Eldar Windriders wear Mesh Armour (5+). Eldar Jetbikes improve it by 2 (3+)
Skyweavers wear no armor (-). Skyweaver Jetbikes improve it by 3 (4+).
Ands people are only up in arms about the Windriders Armour Save.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/14 22:13:06
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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2017/03/14 22:16:29
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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To be fair to all, riptides should be tough, but they currently occupy an unacceptable mathematical sweet spot.
Of course, now we have twc led by celestine. IoM has unacceptably durable deathstars as does daemons. Death stars are frustrating for sure but typically can't ruin you from 36".
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/14 22:21:38
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2017/03/14 22:17:37
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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(The question was whether fairly minor nerfs to the problem units would be more annoying than large across-the-board changes to the rest of the game, not about any specific changes. Those are supposed to be examples.)
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2017/03/14 22:22:37
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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In return iom superfriends have to be knocked down a peg. With this many units the whole thing is super complicated.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/14 22:23:37
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2017/03/15 12:35:51
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Martel732 wrote:In return iom superfriends have to be knocked down a peg. With this many units the whole thing is super complicated.
Exactly. That's the point I've been trying to drive at. There are many, many more units that are not as good as the top-tier power builds than units that actually compose the top-tier power builds, so trying to nerf the units that are actually overpowered instead of trying to buff everything else around them is going to be a less complicated and generally more effective proposition.
Plus it doesn't end up concluding that Fleshbane isn't that good, firepower below S6 is irrelevant, and Invul-penetrating effects should exist.
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2017/03/15 13:09:00
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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As an Eldar player, I would be more ok with slight nerfs to my stuff than buffs to other armies For example, I'd be fine if the WK as it is was 400pts, came standard with the shoulder gun upgrades and only have 5 wounds to compensate for the FNP it has (making it comparable in durability to an IK) I'd also be fine with 4+ save Windriders with 15ppm Scatter lasers. Not a huge nerf, but certainly would make a noticeable dent. Honestly, all Eldar, DE and Harlie bikes should be 4+ armour with Skilled Rider, but that is a discussion for another thread. I do not play Tau, but even if I did I would be more than ok with it only having a 3+ armour, 6+ invul that Novas to a 4++ and came standard with Stim injectors (for the same cost as it is now + Stims). Then it can buy 2 systems. There is no reason for it to have a 2+ armour as it just doesn't fit with the rest of the Jet-pack suit (which are all 3+). Broadsides sacrifice the Jetpack move for a 2+, so if Riptides want to keep the Jetpakc (which they should considering how they are modeled) they should only have a 3+. Stormsurges would have a 2+ as they are basically a larger Broadside, but since the model has so many wounds and is "open-topped", it makes sense for it to be 3+ as well. If you address the egregious units, then the army as a whole balances way better. But unfortunately, it appears that GW is moving in the opposite direction as they approach 8th ed. -
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/15 13:11:54
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2017/03/15 13:19:42
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Galef wrote:...But unfortunately, it appears that GW is moving in the opposite direction as they approach 8th ed...
Thank you for bringing on my follow-up point. We're not GW. GW can screw up all it wants, that doesn't excuse, justify, or require Proposed Rules deciding that we need to throw quality control to the wind and make the same mistakes they're making.
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2017/03/15 13:38:47
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Wicked Warp Spider
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According to popular Proposed Rules subforum view on Eldar players I'm apparently non-existing type:
- I don't field scatbikes and if I feel like jetbikes at all, I use self imposed nerf: my bike scatterlasers are 24" s5 ap6, heavy 4 (I'm not a fan of 1-in-3 solution and my profile makes bike weapon options an actually meaningfull choice between cheap/antihorde/generalist)
- I play with D '6' result nerfed to 2d3 wounds with saves allowed as with any other D result.
- I don't even own a WK and would never field any GMC/Superheavy if my oponent does not field his own. Same goes for Flyers (and if only one side has Flyers for any reasons then there are 1-2 mandatory Skyfire Nexus objectives present on the board).
I personally don't see a problem with D-Scythes or Wraithcannons (nerfed or not), because I don't play against IoM deathstars and don't use WWP Archon to deliver them, so they are situational at best (even in Wave Serpent) and usually die prematurely to massed poison or hail of shots (and double charge is trivial as an anti D-scythe tactics). Eldar Wraitharmies are not popular for a reason. That said, I agree, that full squad of Wraithguard has ridiculous amount of firepower for "normal level" games, making it an "erase button" not worth rolling any dice at all and has a "real life fear USR" that makes it perfect area denial unit. But anyone fielding ridiculously invincible deathstars or stomp-level alpha strike forfeits their right to complain. My personal "go around" this problem in "normal" games is to field Wraithguard/blades as a single, mixed armament unit with both shooting and melee weaponry, which evens their power level accurately.
And just to calm the OP frustration with Proposed Rules threads: I once did a survey here on dakka on how popular houseruling anything actually is. Here you can see the results: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/707179.page
As you can see, Proposed Rules subforum is really just a "vent" of personal frustration and apart from some rare groups/individuals that outright refuse games aganst Eldar/Tau, most players don't impose any restrictions at all.
I'm open to any and all TRULLY balancing houserules, but most of what I read in Proposed Rules is not intended to balance things, but to punish other factions/players/palystyles etc, "they deserve to be nerfed to the ground, muahahaha" attitude. And as a proof that there is really low concern about actual sencere balancing of any faction, buffs for any non IoM underdog factions are often met with fierce opposition and void-mathhamering.
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2017/03/15 14:49:07
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Regular Dakkanaut
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You can count me in the nerfing is the better option camp, but tau and Eldar are my 3rd and 4th Armie respectively so I probably don't get to vote.
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2017/03/15 14:52:40
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Waaagh! Ork Warboss
Italy
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IMHO ripdtides, stormsurges and WK should have a vehicle profile, and a proper number of HP. Something like this:
Riptide: walker with AV 12-12-12, 4 HP, 5+ invuln as a possible upgrade.
Stormsurge and WK: super heavy walkers with AV 13-13-12, 6 HP, It will not die, 4/5+ invuln as a possible upgrade.
WK should cost 400 points as 300 points is the cost of gork/morkanauts, which have a shameful weaponry and 5 HP, no it will not die or invulns. A comparison to IK should be appropriate for both WK and stormsurge, in terms of profiles and points cost.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/15 14:54:18
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2017/03/15 15:07:12
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Blackie wrote:IMHO ripdtides, stormsurges and WK should have a vehicle profile, and a proper number of HP.
Or we could leave the points costs and profiles as they are and hope 8th ed makes MCs, GMCs, Walkers and SHW all very similar. Combine them into a unti type called "Construct" in which the only difference between them is how you damage them (wounding vs. armour pen). But otherwise they function the same, have the same rules and all roll on a damage table of sorts The only way for the profiles to change at this point is for the entire game to be scrapped and rewritten. While I am sure certain people out there would be happy with this, it would be devastating to others. I've already gone through this with Fantasy/ AoS and it killed the game entirely for me. I am sure AoS is proabably better now, but I just don't have the time or energy to relearn and entire rule set and faction specifics. Re-writing 40K from the ground up would effectively shut me out and ruin almost of decade of work. I am not opposed to the main rules getting a serious overhaul, but the exisiting codices, supplements, etc need to remain valid. A smart design team can do this. -
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/15 15:07:59
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2017/03/15 15:24:43
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Blackie wrote:IMHO ripdtides, stormsurges and WK should have a vehicle profile, and a proper number of HP. Something like this:
Riptide: walker with AV 12-12-12, 4 HP, 5+ invuln as a possible upgrade.
Stormsurge and WK: super heavy walkers with AV 13-13-12, 6 HP, It will not die, 4/5+ invuln as a possible upgrade.
WK should cost 400 points as 300 points is the cost of gork/morkanauts, which have a shameful weaponry and 5 HP, no it will not die or invulns. A comparison to IK should be appropriate for both WK and stormsurge, in terms of profiles and points cost.
But.. but.. Wraithbone!
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2017/03/15 15:30:48
Subject: Re:Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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My personal view (though I don't play Tau or Eldar) is that the current ceiling is too high, and the current floor is far too low.
It'd be nice if everyone was buffed/nerfed to be right at a bit higher than the current average, in my opinion.
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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2017/03/15 15:33:46
Subject: Re:Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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JNAProductions wrote:My personal view (though I don't play Tau or Eldar) is that the current ceiling is too high, and the current floor is far too low.
It'd be nice if everyone was buffed/nerfed to be right at a bit higher than the current average, in my opinion.
Agreed. You don't have to knock the OP units down to match the garbage ones, nor do those garbage never used units need to be over-buffed to become the new hotness.
Changes to the main rules can do this without altering the existing units' profiles and costs.
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2017/03/15 15:35:43
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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I am personally okay with anything that makes the balance between armies better. A reduction of AP2 and AP3 firepower on the whole is a great place to start. Removal of layered saves is probably the next best place to start.
For a riptide. Up it's cost by 35 and remove FNP - I think you've got a much more fair unit. Make marker lights Max out at BS5.
For a wraith knight - I like Galef's proposal.
Scatter lasers - make them Heavy 3.
Make units have to max out at 1 blessing per unit. Nerf invis to BS1 WS1 when attacking. Nerf endurance to 5+FNP. Special rules for units which confer squad buffs only buff members of their own faction.
Anything with more than 2 potential shots that is AP2 or 3 reduce it's AP by 1 - but all the them to use an overcharged profile that has the gets hot special rule.
Stuff like that.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/15 15:36:37
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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2017/03/15 15:39:56
Subject: Re:Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Wicked Warp Spider
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Galef wrote:
Changes to the main rules can do this without altering the existing units' profiles and costs.
No they can not, which has been repeatedly proven within Proposed Rules threads regarding MCs, Vechicles, Superheavies, ICs, assaulting from Deep Strike, proposed formation benefit costs etc... Blanket changes ALWAYS have units repaired/broken by introducing them in a wholesale fashion. Both codex-internal and inter-codex ballance is drastically shaken by any change in BRB in often unpredicted ways, from perspective of any faction.
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2017/03/15 15:42:50
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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I have to agree with nou on this. It needs burned down and rebuilt.
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2017/03/15 15:58:28
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Martel732 wrote:I have to agree with nou on this. It needs burned down and rebuilt.
And when that happens, it may push me out as I do not have the time to keep up with so many changes and learn a whole new game. I have a hard enough time keeping up with the rapid-fire of current releases. You'll have to forgive my personal bias here, but 40K is literally the only gaming thing I do (no video games, no card games, not even comics), and I hyper-focus on it Having to start from scratch and make all the hard earned books I have purchased be invalidated overnight would be too much for me. This is compounded by the fact that in the last 2 years I went from single guy with all the time in the world to happily married with 2 preteen boys. My time is now at a premium. I know the game is a mess and needs an overhaul, but as long as it is done in a way that doesn't require the purchase of several new books (a la AoS) and hours upon hours of reading to get a grasp on a fresh new system, then I can keep playing. Otherwise I just wasted the last 10 hobby years of my life. -
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/03/15 16:01:21
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2017/03/15 15:59:38
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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GW has really painted themselves into a corner, however. I don't think racing stripes is gonna cut it here.
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2017/03/15 17:18:10
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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You suggest that it is impossible to buff things up and nerf things down at the same time.
Look at the Eldar codex. It isn't reasonable because there are units that need a buff. No amount of killing the Scatterbikes profile will ever make someone take Banshees or Spears because the unit profile is terrible. So why not fix both and make Scatterbikes reasonable at the same time?
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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2017/03/15 17:26:50
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:You suggest that it is impossible to buff things up and nerf things down at the same time.
Look at the Eldar codex. It isn't reasonable because there are units that need a buff. No amount of killing the Scatterbikes profile will ever make someone take Banshees or Spears because the unit profile is terrible. So why not fix both and make Scatterbikes reasonable at the same time?
I suggest that you should pick a baseline to work from and consider why the outliers are outliers, rather than handing middle-of-the-road units massive buffs and justifying it by explaining how they're less stupid than scatterbikes.
I'm worried about a general approach that's going to take units that weren't that problematic before and hand them buffs that require other non-problem units to be buffed to keep up.
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2017/03/15 17:44:54
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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Look you can't nerf anything. You can only buff. Buff weaker units so that the dex's are balanced. nerfing models means no one buys them. GW is in the business of you buying their models.
Game changes immeasurably if all transports are assault vehicles. Those banshees are instantly playable.
Give Shining spears hit and run.
Make Kroot better at melee with a better save.
Give dark eldar their haywire back.
Give their bikes the craftworld treatment
Improve some units armor saves
Make all tyranids beasts - 12" movements across the board make them instantly competitive. give the existing beasts 15" movement.
fix unit costs.
fix pyrovores
make carnafexes great again
Get rid of ordnance from guard vehicles, make it all primary weapon
Make guard tanks at least rear armor 11 or 12
reduce the entire model range pricing by 1/3 or 1/2 the current points cost
Give them free reserves. Something like if a guard army contains 10 units 5 units come back to life when they die once per game. these units come on from the table edge the start of the players next turn.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/03/15 17:55:19
9000
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Knights / Assassins 800 |
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2017/03/15 17:47:57
Subject: Re:Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought
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I really do not care if buffed or de-buffed: make the capability of the model/unit be reflected in the points cost.
You want to bring a big beast of death onto the battlefield? No problem, but it will cost you.
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A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte |
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2017/03/15 17:54:06
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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Also Assaulting from reserves should just be allowed for all with penalties. Units assaulting from outflank or deepstrike assault at initiative 1 and are disordered charges.
Then give specialized formations the chance to assault from deepstrike at initiative 2 or higher and no longer are disordered charges.
You want to see Tau not MC spam? Make tanks better. Make a 3rd tank variant like the Falcon/Fire Prism/nightspinner. Have a Hammerhead/Skyray/????(I like to call it a Lionfish)
Make Kroot and Vespid better, hell add 2 more alien races Tau can field.
Make the codex fliers something other than steaming piles...
Give broadsides relentless.
Fix Railguns.
Grey knights????
Lower prices
give them some choices for AP 3 and 2 shooting
Give them some anti tank ablities....
Although if they could assault from deepstrike with some bonuses they would be instantly better.
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9000
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Knights / Assassins 800 |
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2017/03/15 17:57:58
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Naaris wrote:Look you can't nerf anything. You can only buff. Buff weaker units so that the dex's are balanced. nerfing models means no one buys them. GW is in the business of you buying their models.
Game changes immeasurably if all transports are assault vehicles. Those banshees are instantly playable.
Give Shining spears hit and run.
Make Kroot better at melee with a better save.
Give dark eldar their haywire back.
Give their bikes the craftworld treatment
Improve some units armor saves
Make all tyranids beasts - 12" movements across the board make them instantly competitive. give the existing beasts 15" movement.
fix unit costs.
fix pyrovores
make carnafexes great again
Get rid of ordnance from guard vehicles, make it all primary weapon
Make guard tanks at least rear armor 11 or 12
reduce the entire model range pricing by 1/3 or 1/2 the current points cost
Give them free reserves. Something like if a guard army contains 10 units 5 units come back to life when they die once per game. these units come on from the table edge the start of the players next turn.
This the competing philosophy for the current situation. Yet another reason my first choice is to burn it all down and restart.
Just understand that for WK and Riptides to NOT get nerfs, we have to dish out a gak TON of buffs. In some cases, I don't even know what they'd be. What do you do for BA or Orks? What does that look like?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/15 17:59:12
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2017/03/15 18:12:07
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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So... we, the Proposed Rules forum on Dakkadakka, can't nerf things...because it means GW won't sell enough models?
Remember when I said GW's screwups are not a justification for us making the same screwup?
When did we become responsible for GW's sales?
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2017/03/15 18:13:30
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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I think he's more referring to the emotional backlash from tier I lists. They can mentally accept nerfing from GW, but not from their peers, who are clearly just jealous of their tier I status.
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