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So I'm finally getting to that point where I think I have enough by way of transports for my troops.

My focus has been more about accumulating enough by way of transports to field a force with reasonable flexibility.

Most Forgeworld heavy units are expensive in terms of money, and I live in the states, so taking the plunge with Forgeworld means I have to plan a bit if I want to avoid shipping fees.

Also I can't justify one of everything. I really have to think about what makes the most sense in terms of overall flexibility, and reliability on the table.

If anyone thinks mixing and matching a few units makes the most sense I'd love to read about your opinions and experiences.

And if you guys would be so kind as to take the time to explain why you favor your pick or picks I'd love to hear that too. As well as why you choose the loadouts you prefer.

I play Salamanders, and have only been able to afford getting into this because of Betrayal at Calth and Burning Prospero making plastics affordable, though I do, now, have some Forgeworld in the list. Also I made this force specifically so that I could also play 40K as well.


I have the following units if that helps you with giving advice:


x10 Firedrake Terminators in a Spartan Assault Tank

x10 Pyroclasts (soon to be in a Proteus Land Raider)

x10 Legion Tactical Squad (in a Rhino)

x10 Legion Tactical Squad (in a Rhino)

x10 Legion Tactical Squad (in a Rhino)

x10 Legion Support Squad (in a Rhino, and magnetized for various Special Weapons)

x10 Legion Heavy Support Squad (w/Missile Launchers)

x02 Contemptor Dreadnoughts (w/Various arms)

x03 Drop Pods

x03 Attack Bikes w/Multimeltas

x03 Landspeeders (Mars Pattern)

Even with the price increase, I think the sicaran is the best all-around heavy support. It has solid armaments, speed, on a decent AV platform. Its just an all-around reliable unit.


The vindicator laser destroyer and deredeo get honorable mentions. Both of those units can be slotted into most lists and usually make your army more lethal for them being there.

Agreed. Best all-around is the Sicaran. But, when you want to kill tanks dead, the laser vindi is great. That's why I nearly always field both in my EC army: 1 Sicaran and two laser vindicators.

Sicarian for sure.

Though I picked up a Deredeo Las variant lately. I call it "Spicy Nacho Hot Dorito"- and it's pretty good. Pretty expensive too.

I'm always underwhelmed by my Sicaran. It seems great on paper but it never performs well. It just becomes a fire magnet and usually gets one good turn of shooting before it's popped. No one in my meta has much luck with them. They look awesome and seem to do well on paper but I end up passing on them usually.

I love laser vindicators though. I usually run three with just the laser destroyer upgrade. They put out an obscene amount of anti armor firepower for their points. And as a bonus the plastic Vindicator kits can be pretty easily converted.

I've had mixed results with my Deredeo. The weapon options are all good so I'm always torn on what to use. I've been going with the big las cannons but the two initial shots seem underwhelming even at BS 5 with the potential to cause a second pen.

So I vote for the Laser Vindicators.

 Thanatos73 wrote:
I'm always underwhelmed by my Sicaran. It seems great on paper but it never performs well. It just becomes a fire magnet and usually gets one good turn of shooting before it's popped. No one in my meta has much luck with them. They look awesome and seem to do well on paper but I end up passing on them usually.

I love laser vindicators though. I usually run three with just the laser destroyer upgrade. They put out an obscene amount of anti armor firepower for their points. And as a bonus the plastic Vindicator kits can be pretty easily converted.

I've had mixed results with my Deredeo. The weapon options are all good so I'm always torn on what to use. I've been going with the big las cannons but the two initial shots seem underwhelming even at BS 5 with the potential to cause a second pen.

So I vote for the Laser Vindicators.

What other loadouts do you usually pay for when it comes to Laser Destroyer Vindicators when you aren't going stock? I keep reading that many people prefer them for the reasons you mention here, but I'm wondering which (if any) upgrades are auto includes beyond the Laser Destroyer upgrade when you have points to spare.

Also did you wind up converting plastic kits yourself?

Deredeo. It is a single model answer to flyers that can do double-duty on anti-tank work. Hard not to love it. Plus, it is distinct looking.

To be honest with you, Leviathans are AMAZING
They can lay down some decent dakka, Mulch Primarchs in CC and are as tanky as hell (the 4+ Invun is AMAZING)

To be honest with you, they are *Technically* a Vehicle Mini-Primarch

The deredeo can be easily loaded out to deal with anything you want it to.
The stock autocannons are the premier anti-air choice, and damage anything without a flare shield.
http://i.imgur.com/rhoyk8A.png
The plasma cannons remove TEQs by the handful.
I personally don't like the lascannons as you are fishing for crits with a nearly 300pt model.

The las-vindi is worth a look for pure popping power.
Its remarkably underrated as a premier anti-tak unit, provided that it is stationary.

Looking at what you have, you probably want the las-vindis for anti-heavy armour.
A contemptor-mortis can be pressed into anti-air service.

Las-vindis want an extra combi bolter and little else.

I think it is telling that even after the nerf Sicarans are as good as they are.

I love facing Leviathans, though (if only because it usually gets pretty spectacular when they clash with my Mhara Gal).

 commander dante wrote:
To be honest with you, Leviathans are AMAZING
They can lay down some decent dakka, Mulch Primarchs in CC and are as tanky as hell (the 4+ Invun is AMAZING)

To be honest with you, they are *Technically* a Vehicle Mini-Primarch

I think leviathans are quintessential 30k models. Big, flashy, fun, and at the sweet spot of power level. The leviathan (in a drop pod) is strong without making your opponent groan in frustration like say a field of the old 85 point castellax would.

Now, is it the best pound for pound heavy support? At around 350 points for the dread and pod, thats a tough stretch and getting into LoW weight class.

The thread topic is a very Legion-dependent question. The Sicaran is a nice tank, but as a WE player I tend to have my HS slots designated for things other than medium gun tanks.

the42up wrote:

 commander dante wrote:
To be honest with you, Leviathans are AMAZING
They can lay down some decent dakka, Mulch Primarchs in CC and are as tanky as hell (the 4+ Invun is AMAZING)

To be honest with you, they are *Technically* a Vehicle Mini-Primarch

I think leviathans are quintessential 30k models. Big, flashy, fun, and at the sweet spot of power level. The leviathan (in a drop pod) is strong without making your opponent groan in frustration like say a field of the old 85 point castellax would.

Now, is it the best pound for pound heavy support? At around 350 points for the dread and pod, thats a tough stretch and getting into LoW weight class.

More like 430pt. It is pricey, but incredibly good.

Herecomesyourman wrote:

 Thanatos73 wrote:
I'm always underwhelmed by my Sicaran. It seems great on paper but it never performs well. It just becomes a fire magnet and usually gets one good turn of shooting before it's popped. No one in my meta has much luck with them. They look awesome and seem to do well on paper but I end up passing on them usually.

I love laser vindicators though. I usually run three with just the laser destroyer upgrade. They put out an obscene amount of anti armor firepower for their points. And as a bonus the plastic Vindicator kits can be pretty easily converted.

I've had mixed results with my Deredeo. The weapon options are all good so I'm always torn on what to use. I've been going with the big las cannons but the two initial shots seem underwhelming even at BS 5 with the potential to cause a second pen.

So I vote for the Laser Vindicators.

What other loadouts do you usually pay for when it comes to Laser Destroyer Vindicators when you aren't going stock? I keep reading that many people prefer them for the reasons you mention here, but I'm wondering which (if any) upgrades are auto includes beyond the Laser Destroyer upgrade when you have points to spare.

Also did you wind up converting plastic kits yourself?

I don't put any upgrades on them, just the laser destroyer. The upgrades are nice but quickly add up, especially when fielding three of them. They are cheap to field with just the laser destroyer and I'd rather have three than one or two with upgrades. I converted all three out of the plastic kit. The first injust put four lascannons in the housing for the demolisher Cannon. The other two I used the triple barreled gun off the Hunter kit. If you can find the sprue you get two of the guns on there. It works perfect. I bought the box, got two guns for laser destroyer conversions and used the rest to convert a Command Rhino. Works well

Another good all rounder not mentioned here is the Legion Malcador.

You can take a battle cannon demolisher cannon and lascannon sponsons then proceed to fire them independently as the Malcador is a super heavy.

It is expensive but can be squadroned if limited heavy support can't suffer vehicle damage results and can be made very tanky with armoured ceramite and flare shields.

 Thanatos73 wrote:

Herecomesyourman wrote:

 Thanatos73 wrote:
I'm always underwhelmed by my Sicaran. It seems great on paper but it never performs well. It just becomes a fire magnet and usually gets one good turn of shooting before it's popped. No one in my meta has much luck with them. They look awesome and seem to do well on paper but I end up passing on them usually.

I love laser vindicators though. I usually run three with just the laser destroyer upgrade. They put out an obscene amount of anti armor firepower for their points. And as a bonus the plastic Vindicator kits can be pretty easily converted.

I've had mixed results with my Deredeo. The weapon options are all good so I'm always torn on what to use. I've been going with the big las cannons but the two initial shots seem underwhelming even at BS 5 with the potential to cause a second pen.

So I vote for the Laser Vindicators.

What other loadouts do you usually pay for when it comes to Laser Destroyer Vindicators when you aren't going stock? I keep reading that many people prefer them for the reasons you mention here, but I'm wondering which (if any) upgrades are auto includes beyond the Laser Destroyer upgrade when you have points to spare.

Also did you wind up converting plastic kits yourself?

I don't put any upgrades on them, just the laser destroyer. The upgrades are nice but quickly add up, especially when fielding three of them. They are cheap to field with just the laser destroyer and I'd rather have three than one or two with upgrades. I converted all three out of the plastic kit. The first injust put four lascannons in the housing for the demolisher Cannon. The other two I used the triple barreled gun off the Hunter kit. If you can find the sprue you get two of the guns on there. It works perfect. I bought the box, got two guns for laser destroyer conversions and used the rest to convert a Command Rhino. Works well

Do you think it would be easy to magnetize the converted Vindicators so they could be swapped out from demolisher cannons to laser destroyers?

I think cost-wise the Forge World models aren't that expensive, but having that flexibility would be pretty ace.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Titanicus wrote:
Another good all rounder not mentioned here is the Legion Malcador.

You can take a battle cannon demolisher cannon and lascannon sponsons then proceed to fire them independently as the Malcador is a super heavy.

It is expensive but can be squadroned if limited heavy support can't suffer vehicle damage results and can be made very tanky with armoured ceramite and flare shields.

I didn't think to add the Malcador, but I was also trying to stay away from Super Heavies in general...thinking more about general purpose units...do you think a super heavy winds up being more utilitarian?

I think the super heavy rules make it utilitarian Sony because they allow splitting fire how ever you like. As well for the cheap price of a spartan you get the child of a Vindicator and a Leman Russ stuck on a Spartans hull.

Sure it's a super heavy but I don't think super heavy rules in general are a problem (nor is it overly large). Some low are an issue but most of those bring unI unique weapons or the D.

laser vindicator would be my pick from the list, though I would personally put heavy support squads on there. Access to interceptor and flexibility with armament, + the unit can never (realistically) be taken out by a single shot. alternativley laser destroyers or shatter shells on quad mortars also work wonders too.

Do you think it would be easy to magnetize the converted Vindicators so they could be swapped out from demolisher cannons to laser destroyers?

I think cost-wise the Forge World models aren't that expensive, but having that flexibility would be pretty ace.

It might not even be necessary to magnetize. If you use the hunter gun it slides in the housing pretty securely. Then you should be able to swap out for the demolisher Cannon.

I'm guessing a lot of people own the Sicaran Battle Tank!!! It has twenty votes haha.

I mean, it is a pretty solid all-rounder. Will have to get back to you on magnetizing the sponsons, still working on that part.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I mean, it is a pretty solid all-rounder. Will have to get back to you on magnetizing the sponsons, still working on that part.

I like the idea of the Sicaran, but I'm wondering about redundancy for my Salamanders since Firedrakes are usually a staple and they are a bit of a points sink....so after the fantastic responses to this thread I'm thinking maybe this:

For 2,000 Points I could make the room to field x02 Vindicator Laser Destroyers, and x02 Dakka Predators in a squadron (both predators would also have pintel mounted Heavy Bolters on top of the sponson mounted ones)

Maybe mixing things up with Forge World Vindicators and Mars Pattern Predators to save a bit of money (I do think the Laser Destoyer Vindicators look great though and would be really fun to paint)

It's not spamming three of either...but you also have the quad lasers on the Spartan I'll be fielding to help up the amount of las being thrown around to start.

I know the Sicarans are fast...but I'm not sure you can beat the amount of shots you'd have there for 500 Points-ish in that small of a game.


OR...I could ditch the Heavy Bolters on the Predators and field x03 of them with just the Autocannon Predator Sponson.

Herecomesyourman wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I mean, it is a pretty solid all-rounder. Will have to get back to you on magnetizing the sponsons, still working on that part.

I like the idea of the Sicaran, but I'm wondering about redundancy for my Salamanders since Firedrakes are usually a staple and they are a bit of a points sink....so after the fantastic responses to this thread I'm thinking maybe this:

For 2,000 Points I could make the room to field x02 Vindicator Laser Destroyers, and x02 Dakka Predators (both predators would also have pintel mounted Heavy Bolters)

Maybe mixing things up with Forge World Vindicators and Mars Pattern Predators to save a bit of money (I do think the Laser Destoyer Vindicators look great though and would be really fun to paint)

It's not spamming three of either...but you also have the quad lasers on the Spartan I'll be fielding to help up the amount of las being thrown around to start.

I know the Sicarans are fast...but I'm not sure you can beat the amount of shots you'd have there for 500 Points-ish in that small of a game.

In my experience of Salamanders Firedrakes are less of a staple than people seem to think; if you're not in a big enough game to have to worry about Primarch-fights you can usually leave them behind.

The upside to the Sicaran is less the speed and more the usable side/rear armour and the fact that the main gun can threaten almost anything (it isn't an efficient tool against AV14, but it can threaten AV14 in emergencies). It does depend some on what you're fighting (some Legions can get into the squishy behind of a Predator/Vindicator more easily than others), two Predators/two Vindicators definitely have more hull points, and the squadronable issue makes for more efficient use of slots, but it is worth pointing out that a Sicaran and a Sicaran Venator in place of those two squadrons gets you about as much firepower (two neutron-beam shots, six accelerator-autocannon shots, two heavy bolters, and four heavy bolters or lascannons from the sponson slots, in place of two laser-destroyer shots, eight normal autocannon shots, up to four pintle heavy bolters, and four heavy bolters or lascannons from the sponson slots) for a similar price, but you're also getting Shock-Pulse to mess with superheavies (if any appear) and the ability to penetrate flare-shield AV14 out of the Venator.

At the end of the day it does come down to what else you're using and what you're going up against, but I tend to prefer a Sicaran to two Predators for Rending, ignore Jink, a twin-linked main weapon (which close to doubles its utility as improvised anti-air), and greater resistance to butt shots.

One Heavy Support choice that was not presented in the list but is the best tank in the game is the Legio Custodes Caladius Grav-Tank.

Fast Skimmer tank with a Flare Shield and Power of the Machine Spirit and a great main gun backed up by an AP 3 infantry shredder, which has a -2 To Hit in the assault (meaning only sixes hit it no matter what your WS is). Also has Deep Strike and Outflank. Oh, and just for icing on the cake: BS 5. For less then 200 points.

Best tank in the game.

 Tamwulf wrote:
One Heavy Support choice that was not presented in the list but is the best tank in the game is the Legio Custodes Caladius Grav-Tank.

Fast Skimmer tank with a Flare Shield and Power of the Machine Spirit and a great main gun backed up by an AP 3 infantry shredder, which has a -2 To Hit in the assault (meaning only sixes hit it no matter what your WS is). Also has Deep Strike and Outflank. Oh, and just for icing on the cake: BS 5. For less then 200 points.

Best tank in the game.

Wouldnt it be 5+ to hit, you hit a vehicle on a 3+.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Herecomesyourman wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I mean, it is a pretty solid all-rounder. Will have to get back to you on magnetizing the sponsons, still working on that part.

I like the idea of the Sicaran, but I'm wondering about redundancy for my Salamanders since Firedrakes are usually a staple and they are a bit of a points sink....so after the fantastic responses to this thread I'm thinking maybe this:

For 2,000 Points I could make the room to field x02 Vindicator Laser Destroyers, and x02 Dakka Predators (both predators would also have pintel mounted Heavy Bolters)

Maybe mixing things up with Forge World Vindicators and Mars Pattern Predators to save a bit of money (I do think the Laser Destoyer Vindicators look great though and would be really fun to paint)

It's not spamming three of either...but you also have the quad lasers on the Spartan I'll be fielding to help up the amount of las being thrown around to start.

I know the Sicarans are fast...but I'm not sure you can beat the amount of shots you'd have there for 500 Points-ish in that small of a game.

In my experience of Salamanders Firedrakes are less of a staple than people seem to think; if you're not in a big enough game to have to worry about Primarch-fights you can usually leave them behind.

The upside to the Sicaran is less the speed and more the usable side/rear armour and the fact that the main gun can threaten almost anything (it isn't an efficient tool against AV14, but it can threaten AV14 in emergencies). It does depend some on what you're fighting (some Legions can get into the squishy behind of a Predator/Vindicator more easily than others), two Predators/two Vindicators definitely have more hull points, and the squadronable issue makes for more efficient use of slots, but it is worth pointing out that a Sicaran and a Sicaran Venator in place of those two squadrons gets you about as much firepower (two neutron-beam shots, six accelerator-autocannon shots, two heavy bolters, and four heavy bolters or lascannons from the sponson slots, in place of two laser-destroyer shots, eight normal autocannon shots, up to four pintle heavy bolters, and four heavy bolters or lascannons from the sponson slots) for a similar price, but you're also getting Shock-Pulse to mess with superheavies (if any appear) and the ability to penetrate flare-shield AV14 out of the Venator.

At the end of the day it does come down to what else you're using and what you're going up against, but I tend to prefer a Sicaran to two Predators for Rending, ignore Jink, a twin-linked main weapon (which close to doubles its utility as improvised anti-air), and greater resistance to butt shots.

I can see how having one of each Sicaran winds up being a bit more flexible, but my worry about redundancy comes back...with higher armor values they are harder to kill, but if one of them is the more major threat, and you lose one...half your capabilities are pretty much lost.

So I guess my question is....is the Battle Tank typically just the better pick than the Venator if you had to have two of something for redundancy? Or would you rather take one of each and look to using your transports as cover moving them into key positions during the first few turns when terrain is light?

 Tamwulf wrote:
One Heavy Support choice that was not presented in the list but is the best tank in the game is the Legio Custodes Caladius Grav-Tank.

Fast Skimmer tank with a Flare Shield and Power of the Machine Spirit and a great main gun backed up by an AP 3 infantry shredder, which has a -2 To Hit in the assault (meaning only sixes hit it no matter what your WS is). Also has Deep Strike and Outflank. Oh, and just for icing on the cake: BS 5. For less then 200 points.

Best tank in the game.

We are recommending a unit for a Legion list, not a Custodes list.

(An argument could be made that the Coronus is a better tank than the Caladius. You get a weaker turret gun and lower side armour, but you also get a sixty-point discount, an extra hull point, and twelve-model transport capacity out of the deal. The Custodes heavy support slots in general seem odd to me; the Saggitarum Guard are massively outperformed by the jetbikes, the Caladius is barely a tweak on the Coronus, and the Contemptor-Galatus doesn't seem worth an extra fifty points over the Contemptor-Achillus.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herecomesyourman wrote:
...I can see how having one of each Sicaran winds up being a bit more flexible, but my worry about redundancy comes back...with higher armor values they are harder to kill, but if one of them is the more major threat, and you lose one...half your capabilities are pretty much lost.

So I guess my question is....is the Battle Tank typically just the better pick than the Venator if you had to have two of something for redundancy? Or would you rather take one of each and look to using your transports as cover moving them into key positions during the first few turns when terrain is light?

The Venator is a better pick if you know you're going to see lots of heavy armour, but the Battle Tank is a better all-rounder. If you're worried about making sure you have two of the same tank for redundancy I'd suggest making the choice based on what the rest of your list struggles with; if you don't think you can kill a Land Raider without your heavy support slots go for Venators, if you've got armour covered but are less sure about fast units or if you just need more saturation of fire go for the Battle Tanks.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:
One Heavy Support choice that was not presented in the list but is the best tank in the game is the Legio Custodes Caladius Grav-Tank.

Fast Skimmer tank with a Flare Shield and Power of the Machine Spirit and a great main gun backed up by an AP 3 infantry shredder, which has a -2 To Hit in the assault (meaning only sixes hit it no matter what your WS is). Also has Deep Strike and Outflank. Oh, and just for icing on the cake: BS 5. For less then 200 points.

Best tank in the game.

We are recommending a unit for a Legion list, not a Custodes list.

(An argument could be made that the Coronus is a better tank than the Caladius. You get a weaker turret gun and lower side armour, but you also get a sixty-point discount, an extra hull point, and twelve-model transport capacity out of the deal. The Custodes heavy support slots in general seem odd to me; the Saggitarum Guard are massively outperformed by the jetbikes, the Caladius is barely a tweak on the Coronus, and the Contemptor-Galatus doesn't seem worth an extra fifty points over the Contemptor-Achillus.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herecomesyourman wrote:
...I can see how having one of each Sicaran winds up being a bit more flexible, but my worry about redundancy comes back...with higher armor values they are harder to kill, but if one of them is the more major threat, and you lose one...half your capabilities are pretty much lost.

So I guess my question is....is the Battle Tank typically just the better pick than the Venator if you had to have two of something for redundancy? Or would you rather take one of each and look to using your transports as cover moving them into key positions during the first few turns when terrain is light?

The Venator is a better pick if you know you're going to see lots of heavy armour, but the Battle Tank is a better all-rounder. If you're worried about making sure you have two of the same tank for redundancy I'd suggest making the choice based on what the rest of your list struggles with; if you don't think you can kill a Land Raider without your heavy support slots go for Venators, if you've got armour covered but are less sure about fast units or if you just need more saturation of fire go for the Battle Tanks.

How do you rank the Leviathan in all of this?

I'm still a bit torn about Vindicator Laser Destroyers, in that if one dies, you'd still have another or maybe two to deal with, and they're cheaper to put together. But the Leviathan is 2nd behind the Sicaran Battle Tank at this point.

I'm toying with Vindi Laser Destoyers and a Sicaran Battle tank or two (if it's true that you can take a squad of Vindicators now).